can anyone explain this and maybe help me i have 2 bitches and a stud dog, i used my stud dog on my last mating with one of my bitches, no probs, lovely pups. My second bitch who he as never mated with is 6 days  into  season i have never mated her before. usually my dog is all over my bitches when in season, and i have to send him away if i dont want to mate them, i use him for stud and have never had any probs there. but he sniffs her occasionally but thats all nothing else, no attempts to mount her nothing. he even tries to mount other dogs same breed girls or boys. what do you suggest i wanted a puppy from this litter myself. do I use an other stud, this would be a shame because i know he produces good quality stock. any suggests is mother nature going to take over!

I wouldn't expect an experienced stud dog to be "all over" bitches in season - my bitches certainly wouldn't be impressed if they weren't ready
This is the reason why some owners get lulled into a false sense of security "He wasn't taking any notice of her, so we left them together ............"
Pretty sure that he'll be interested enough when the time's right, especially if you keep them apart more than usual between now & then.

when i mean all over i should have been more detailed i mean following them around the house sleeping next to them etc i dont mean trying to mount then all the time i was just trying to explain that his behaviour is very different and showing no interest i know my dogs very well and can not understand this is not his usual behaviour pattern, sorry

You are very lucky to find a stud dog who is the most suitable dog for both of your bitches.

i know i have been lucky, i have ckcs and unfortunatley there seems rather a lot of very large stud dogs about, my girls are size wise to the lower end of the breed standards. i have struggled to find a suitable stand by you would not mate a large horse with a small pony!!!
it seems like they have alkl been feed on growth fertilizers like digby( if you are old enough to remember him!!!!!!)

Yes I remember Digby!! 

Size is variable in Cavaliers.  I used to have a tricoloured Weaverley bitch from Sheila Somerscales. :)  And you've compatible lines with good eye and heart results too?

what do you have now

Rough Collies! :)

What lines are your Cavaliers??

Masey - salador
Poppy - peakdowns

I remember Sheila Smith.  She worked towards good heart results.  How did you get on with eye testing?

have you been involved in cavalier breeding for sometime, speaking of eyes a friend (used in the loosest term) purchased a puppy not one of mine, and discovered a blocked tear duct the vet said needed to operate, could this of been hereditary or cause though intensive building work at her house. The pup apparantley was fully vet checked at time of purchase

You are lucky a boy the matches both your girls & all SHM MRI scanned clear & eye & heart tested too.

What's your boy's lines ? Bet his breeder is chuffed to have bred an SHM clear Is he on the Cavalier club list yet ? You'll need to be careful who uses him as there are only a handful of SHM  scanned clear dogs. I'm looking for another puppy but having an SHM affected dog I'm finding it hard to find anyone who has scanned clear breeding stock, so you should have no problem finding homes for your puppies, people will be queuing up for them.

How old are your dogs, touch wood Lou(my SHM dog) is 4 this year & no symptoms yet.

My 5 year old boy is spot on for size but looks like a puppy against the other dogs in the ring. No one is using my dogs though not until they find the DNA marker genes as even though the dogs like yours can be scanned clear they could still be carriers.

Do you do annual eye testing Sharon?  You don't say.

I can't help but notice that the OP question has hardly been touched upon, as you all seem intent on grilling her on whether she should be using that dog on her bitches. It is done (fairly) subtly, posed as interested observations but it is noticable how you think that somebody would find it so hard to find a dog to match 2 bitches. Do all studs in this country only cover one bitch each? Of course not, some cover lots, because more than one bitch can suit a dog. How do you know this lady's bitches aren't from the same line, or even sisters?

I am not trying to muscle in on what is not my breed but i do think more positive and less negative, (trying to catch people out) would be helpful.

I have found that the more experienced a dog is, the more sensible he is round bitches in season.  My boys who have been used will just check out an in-season bitch fairly regularly and pay particular attention to where they've peed, but will only pay her attention when she is ready.  My boy who has never been used, was more of a nuisance when I had entire bitches. 

Helen, sometimes it helps to read people's previous posts to get a better overview of a situation, because it's very difficult for anyone to put all the facts in their first post. :)

Helen, the same dog need not be suitable for litter sisters!  If they are not line bred, they could be as different as chalk and cheese and both need completely different qualities from a suitable mate.

I think, Val, reading between the lines, its not that helen was judging or casting a definitive comment on dogs being suitable for litter sisters etc etc, but just that someone asked a specific question, asked for help, and many posts wandered off immediately asking the poster something entirely unrelated to replying about her original question. Moreso this seems to happen on many threads. No help given on the original question, but lots of veiled judgemental questions about whether this person should be breeding or mating the dog in question in the first place.

Di

Agree, I've found that on many many topic threads reading these boards... constant questions about proving health results and so on. Not constructive when matings etc have already taken place and people are crying for help. The other odd one is when someone asks something about, say a CKCS and someone leaps up saying 'ohhhh but 12 months ago you were asking about Golden Retrievers!' (Or something....) Errrr.... so what? Doesn't mean they can't ask about CKCS does it, a few weeks or months later?

Di

It means that the majority of members of this board do their very best to encourage responsible dog breeding, not breeding from inferior quality pet bitches to produce pet puppies. :(
And then there are others who are happy to encourage pet breeding.  This is, after all, an information exchange. :)

Really... hmmmm. Even in the ones where folks have already conducted the matings, are whelping, or raising the whelps? Its a bit late then and just casues the poster extra stress and reason to push off and act in ignorance on their own again as they got jumped on here.

A comment about health testing made within a post actually helping the person with their genuine question would be more useful surely.

Di

This thread is about a mating that has not taken place!

With no reference to this thread but to your post, I, certainly, would not add to a thread where inferior quality dogs have been mated.  My primary concern would be for the unsuspecting families would be bringing illbred pups into their homes.  But each to their own of course. :)

Grin.... nice answer ;-) Super one for the gallery ;-)

producing healthy ethically bred dogs is what one encourages in an ideal world, but its seems I have discovered on these boards in the last few weeks few posters seem to live in an ideal world. We can gently step them nearer it but chasing them out of this world with a broom and a bucket of water is unnecessary.

I just findthe constant mounting of moral high horses tiresome when people come here for advice and in getting it from some, from others meet the same old negative attitude.

I wonder if all those posting such posts bred their first litter from a perfect bitch using a perfect sire with perfect health tests and raised their puppies perfectly. I would think not.

Di

before any replies are necessary I'll back off having made my point as far as i'm concerned - grin. I was speaking generally of threads not JUST this one where patently the mating is yet to take place ;-) See the Umbilical Hernia one just started just as an example...just one.
TTFN.

Di

>I wonder if all those posting such posts bred their first litter from a perfect bitch using a perfect sire with perfect health tests and raised their puppies perfectly.

As the saying goes: "A fool learns from his own mistakes. A wise man learns from other people's." ;)

Quite... if he stays around long enough to actually soak up the knowledge that is there between the sharp lead jerks!

Chuckle
Di

If he doesn't then he's proved his folly beyond any doubt! :D :D

I can only speak for myself and I bred my first litter over 20 years ago under the guidance of my bitch's breeder, who had by then been breeding for 25 years herself.  All her line came from health tested, show quality dogs and bitches, even in those days. :)

If one lowers one's standards to less than a perfect world, then of course the standard will drop even lower than it is now.

The advice and opinions on all threads add to everyone's knowledge; we all learn from them for when we may find ourselves in a similar situation - so the more general theme is of use to people other than the OP. :) In this case, of course, the mating hasn't taken place so now is an ideal time to try to ensure mistakes aren't made. :)

Not constructive when matings etc have already taken place and people are crying for help.

Hi Di :-D , like most when you have been here a while you will see the same posts over and over again.  Why should people in all honesty help those crying for help because of irresponsible actions.

Whilst I am not saying it is impossible the odds are certainly against a person having the right stud dog for 2 bitches. Now whether they are similarly bred or type , we should be using the " most" suitable in my opinion.

To be honest I haven't used a dog in the same country as me.. never mind be lucky enough to have one in the house :-)

My comments are not really based or directed to the OP , I tend to stay off these posts now as I won't support, help , encourge what could perhaps be, whilst some are not I don't want to take the chance now. I felt the need to post in reply to the comments about other members.

Been led up the garden path a few times on here.

" Whilst I am not saying it is impossible the odds are certainly against a person having the right stud dog for 2 bitches. Now whether they are similarly bred or type , we should be using the " most" suitable in my opinion. "

Blue I do respect your balanced opinion. However i wasn't commenting on whether the lady in question had the right dog for her two bitches, personally, I think its a ludicrous idea to have two bitches and one dog to use at stud ONLY to those two bitches. There is NO chance there is NO better dog in the whole country.

But i wasn't interested in that, shes made her mind up i'm sure that he is, and so I answered her question to the best of my opinion on why her dog might be ignoring bitch two on day 6 of her season.

However then I saw someone else post and question why folks didn't help the woman in her question but hammered on post after post about 'have you done eye tests' 'have you done this test' 'what lines are your dogs from?' and they aren't interested i'm sure really, they just want to hear 'yes' 'yes' and 'decent recognisable, probably show, lines'. Any other answer would surely prompt either a diatribe or a cold shoulder and no chance of any help on her query.

Encouraging ethical breeding is about helping these people gently understand. If they won't listen after one or two attempts one has to sigh and let it go, but I do appreciate seeing dozens of bad breeding decisions everyday on here can get tiresome.

As a gundog Breed club secretary I go through the fact there are dozens of ways to get around having to train gundogs using harsh handling, week in week out.  I go through dozens of calls for puppies and stud dogs, many from people with no idea about health tests who shouldn't be breeding. Who are looking for a bitch puppy to buy in eventually mate with their pet labrador with pretty ears and a nice smile. They tell me over and over that they get nothing but grief and a snobby sttitude from so many of the people they try and approach that they have nearly given up trying for advice or telling the truth in enquiries!

I can see what they mean sometimes ;-) It is more worrying people don't want to be gentle with those who patently need soft soaping into not doing something stupid than anything else. Be hasrh and its another person out on their own breeding blindly with no back up.

In my humble opinion.

Di

In my humble opinion.

Absolutely!  And if you want to help people produce ill bred puppies, then feel free to do so. 

But PLEASE don't criticise those who choose not to and spend their time picking up the pieces from such matings. :rolleyes:

And, for your humble opinion, I AM interested in the lines of Cavaliers, having shown one myself.

shes made her mind up i'm sure that he is
How can you assume such a thing?  Maybe she's not heard any different?:rolleyes: 

It's also worth remembering that these posts are read by the general public who don't post.  The questions asked on any thread may well educate another person thinking of doing the same thing and not realising that dogs should be health tested and ancestors checked for virtues and faults before mating.

Shakes head slowly....

I don't think you are reading more than you wish to see from my posts. Thats fine. Weare just not on the same planet and I would hate to see you handling the calls a breed club takes on a day in day out basis.

Di

I would hate to see you handling the calls a breed club takes on a day in day out basis.

Assuming again!  You have no idea what I do all day! rolleyes:

Lets not do this Val.... or take it private. I presume nothing about you. I jut dislike your attitude as much as you dislike mine. Lets blow a stop whistle on this.

Thanks
Di

An excellent suggestion from one who started the criticism of this board!

There's no reason why would-be breeders should be given the slightest encouragement to aim for anything less than the best. When it comes to the creation of living beings 'mediocre' is an unacceptable target. :) Unfortunately in far, far too many cases (in labradors in particular) the only target is to a litter - quality is immaterial. :( In CKCS the end result is too many cute puppies who're likely to give their loving owners heartbreak by dying at a very early age. Puppy buyers deserve better.

Of course.... so one needs to educate them! gently! At whatever stage they come to you.... before, during or after the mating. You cannot say 'do not breed from that dog!' They will just smile sweetly and put the phone down and do what they were going to do anyway without listening to your balanced advice. Thats fine if thats what one wishes to happen, but thats not the aim of a breed club or someone who cares about ones breed. Notin my view anyway.

Di

so one needs to educate them! gently

That's exactly what WAS happening on this thread, by gently asking questions, until it was criticised and hijacked.

And when a person ignores previous gentle advice because it isn't what they want to hear, then ask the same question later? These aren't primary-school children we're dealing with, who're having problems making their collage; they're mature adults who are playing God and creating life. It's one of the most critically important things on the planet - far too important to risk people getting the impression that mistakes are trivial. They can't scrunch them up, throw them in the bin and try again! "If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen." JMO.

Rereading this post it has some very valid points. There are far too many labradors bred and working with rescue alongside the exhibiting and shooting side of things I do see some dreadful dreadful *mistakes* as one might call it. I truely agree here.

It does bring up a whole interesting thread which on our International labrador Breeders forum we debate frequently with strong feelings on all sides, what is a QUALITY litter?

For show people using the conformational quality of many field trial bred dogs would immediately render the litter 'poor'. For field people (in our breed) using heavy overdone show dogs would render the puppies unworkable, prone to strains and ligament damage and 'poor'. Yet probably both these litters are from dogs littered with *red* dogs in their pedigrees, have full health testing for at least 3 generations, probably more, and have shown excellence in their chosen field.

Then you find a bitch bought from a decent breeder in the hands of a total novice who is told sheis beautiful and decides to breed. He health tests, he seeks breeder or breed club advice on a suitable stud dog, he mates her. She is a pet dog, but is that litter any 'poorer' than that of the competition home breeding?

Then you go down and find a pet bitch, they adore her, her pedigree is mostly a mix of pet and working with no champions until the 5th generation. The breeders have no clue, first timers, but mate her to a health scored dog, but cherish the puppies, raise them beautifully and mostly sell to friends and word of mouth contacts. We are starting to dip into murky waters... but where did the barometre drop into the 'no go' zone?

How does one equate a QUALITY litter or a mating of QUALITY dogs. One train of thought is many champions are sitting by folks firesides. Another is that only dogs proven in their show or field arena should be bred from. What about those health tested fully with excellent rsults and good temperaments but that have never seen a show ring and are ugly as sin? What about the champion that has a damned awful temperament but people still use him? The non elbow scored frequently used sire who has thrown many cases of OCD? Is he better than the pet dog down the road with all the health tests in place?

Its so hard to judge people on their mating decisions is what I'm saying. I'd be pleased to know where the 'danger zone' barometre falls and the 'level of knowledge one should have'  scale is with any posters/contributors?

How does one define who should and shouldn't breed and what makes a quality litter and how we judge this?

Di

I'm quite sure that there are many potential champions living exclusively pet lives - Championship status only guarantees that the owner had the time, money and interest to campaign the dog to its title! ;) A litter with exclusively red in its pedigree may not actually be 'well-bred' ...

However what makes a 'quality' litter (whether the aim is for show-type or working-type) more likely is breeder-research - research into the qualities of their own (no doubt much-loved) bitch, what her parents were like, what their parents were like - their test results (if any), look at pictures, maybe meet them (grandparents may only be 6 or 7 years old!) - did siblings have any health issues? What's temperament like back up the line? And of course, the same research is needed for potential sires. When you see a request for details of "a chocolate (if we're dealing with labs) stud dog local to Borsetshire" you can be 99% sure that this reseach hasn't been done!

Jean and Jen,

I enjoyed your posts - I was opening the topic for debate, I don't have a rigid idea of what is right or wrong as i see too many shades of grey! I agree with very much what jean said about research. Couldn't agree more. I think sometimes its hard to do this research on a pet bred dog and therefore one of the guidelines regarding breeding only from established lines tends to come from the fact we do actually KNOW something about lines that have a bit of history and tracebility to them. I do tend to lean towards this being a black and white area for my own comfort zone. And Jen in that you are quite right its hard to pass along decent puppy raising skills and information when one is a novice oneself, thats a good thought too.

Champions are a difficult area. We have a super champion (although he is only a show champion, they have not explored if he has breed type in the area of working ability) in our breed with great health results but a lousy temperament. Well, we have all sorts in our breed, but this dog shouts at me as a classic example of feeling ethical because one is breeding from champion dogs is a falsehood in some cases... but I suppose to many its about the only benchmark we have, true enough. Running working tests week in week out its interesting that many dfogs running beautifully (of many gundog breeds,not just labs) in working tests are pet bred. They have type, temperament, bidability, trainability, but often poor conformation and utterly unknown pedigrees. They have handlers, often with only one dog but skilled in training and with tons of club contacts and points of help, yet even with good health scores its hard for me to picture many viewing their litters as quality litters if they wee to breed.

Its so grey its practically a well washed pair of underpants! ;-) Thanks for your thoughts, hope it runs and we can put aside all the daftness the thread went in for a while, for which I do apologise one and all for my part.

Di

As Labs, GR's etc have been brought into this, I look at these - and other "popular" breeds and can firmly say I dont want was has happened to them happening to my breed. I own a breed currently on the "endangered" list and there are more and more owners who do not do the research needed starting to breed. The thought of a breed I adore being in the position of changing out of recognition because "breeders" dont know what a good dog should look like is awful. Lets face it, there are many labs, yorkies etc. that look more like crossbreeds purely because people think it would be a good idea to breed their bitch purely because it will make a bit of money, for the experience or because she is (in their eyes) so lovely - whatever. In our position I think these misguided folk should be educated by whatever means we can to stop before more damage is done. Health testing can be done, but we also need to remember these dogs should look like the breed they are. 

Very good points. Certainly for our breed, to be honest, the biggest change in type, the biggest SPLIT in type to be more accurate, has infact come from the nature of the dog being a working dog which some factions have decided only to show. This can be said for most of the numerically high gundog breeds. Its not really pet breeding that has ruined the unified type of the breed but the lean towards going heavier and heavier for the showring and slighter, slimer and finer for working. Then all those folks in the middle tend to get an eye for one of those two types and consider it a 'proper' labrador (or other gundog) and do all they can to breed only to their 'type'.

Pet breeders tend to not of had much sway on this, the definition of the breed comes from the show/working split. Some don't even recognise field trial bred labradors as being labradors (same for cockers, goldens and springers to a certain extent). Ditto some can't tell a show labrador from some quarters, from a Rottie!
Whilst I agree indiscriminate pet breeding MUST play its part, certainly for our breed the split needs breeders from competition kennels to hang their heads for not working towards the middle ground for the last 60 or so years.

Its now almost impossible to breed anywhere in the middle ground (as we call it 'dual purpose') and have it good enough to win in the showring and be taken seriously in field trials or out shooting. To be frank, and I expect lots of brickbats here ;-) I see more pet bred dogs who have a serious lack of exaggerations than in either end of the competion, and therefore supposedly 'knowledgeable' spectrum! Thats no excuse for pet breeding, but its hell that the split is here to stay I agree - don't allow your breed to go there (although it probably WON'T if its not a working/Gundog breed)

Di

Sorry - dont agree. Are you saying that Yorkies have not been ruined by "pet" breeders? You have to look further than labs - its happening in too many breeds. :(

You make some interesting points Di, but one thing that isn't often mentioned is the experience of the 'novice' breeder.  I have often heard of people on this board breeding from their first dog - in some cases, they have bought the puppy when older, say six or nine months.  They then decide to have a litter.  How can they give the back up and support to new owners when they have so little dog owning experience, in some cases not even having gone through the puppy stage themselves, having bought an older dog.  To me it seems rather hit and miss.  With luck their buyers may be experienced owners who will never come back to them for advice but if we are advocating responsible breeding, surely lifetime backup and a breeder who, at least, has some experience, has to be a part of that.  Btw, I am not a breeder, but do help with lab rescue.

but i wasn't interested in that, shes made her mind up i'm sure that he is, and so I answered her question to the best of my opinion on why her dog might be ignoring bitch two on day 6 of her season.

Hi Di,

I completely understood from your post you were not interested in the above and could see it was the questions by other posters that urged you to post  BUT the reason I mentioned  the fact that the likeliness of it being the best choice first time never mind second time is so slim " could " perhaps be the reason the other posters asked all the questions??? . Do you see what I mean and do you see the connection?

I think if the post had been " I have taken my dog along to the selected stud and we are having problems" may even have attracted possibly different questions and replies.

Whilst I don't totally disagree with your about some post being jumped on , I personally think that it is only the very minority this happens to and most happen because people do think there is genuine concern and do not want to encourage irresponsible breeding. 

thank god someone else feels like i do, exactly this happened to me, judgment after judgement, and 'what you said last year' etc... etc.... caused me to not bother continuing to ask for help, i will in future go to qualified proffessionals to ask for help

caused me to not bother continuing to ask for help, i will in future go to qualified proffessionals to ask for help

Didn't think there was such a thing as a qualified professional dog breeder! Guess the closest we could get is Malcolm Willis!