Could any behaviourists amounst you advice? I have a 1 and half year old retriever and he has the habbit of when meeting other dogs on lead of standing and sniffing and then the best way i can describe pouncing on them, alot of the time he has layed down when the dog is approaching. As we rehomed at 5 months he has always been a little ott with other dogs on lead so probably wrongly we have avoided this.He often gets told off by the other dog but never retaliates. When off lead i see what i think is submissive behaviour,he will lie down then when the other dog runs over he will run and play tag. He has also been cornered by a big husky mix and when stared at looked away and then they proceded to play which i also believed was him showing no other threat, where i later found out another dog had been snapped at by the same dog ( a tiny springer ) who was a little barky at Tylers collar when playing. I have always thought his behaviour was playful and over excitement and a little of not knowing how to behave when restrained as he is a very friendly dog. However i recently rang a trainer and when i explained Tylers behaviour she said he was dominant and in his prime and turns out she walks dogs near by and would meet which is very nice, but what i am worried about is she said her dogs would tell Tyler off. He has so far never retaliated to another dog and when walking with others seems to get on fine off lead. I am worried about putting him off other dogs as i do realise dogs are better at working things out for themselves off lead. He is uneutered and always seems to be the dog who gets humped so to speak by mostly other uneutered dogs and always runs away under my or the other owner legs. I am extremely grateful for this trainers help but wondered if anyone has any more advice just to get a few more views. Any advice would be really helpful as i am really worried now.

I would just like to add we look after a relatives dog and after intial excitement ie we take them both out for a quick run he is quite happy with her in the house garden or whatever. She is bone possesive and he lets her get on with it, she is a year or two older though. I am just trying to give as much information as possible. If anyone can help it would be great as i am really worried now.

I really wouldn't worry it sounds like normal behaviour! when on the lead don't give him the opportunity to pounce.
If you know when hes going to do it pull him away and learn him to greet nicely.

I'm always wary of 'behaviourists' that say their dogs will put yours in their place, we went to one and the behaviourist had to take her 'dominant' dog away for fear of scaring her for life with our girl roflmao.
I'd rather go with the good behaviour/reward not the tit for tat way.

Thankyou this is what i was lead to believe but wasn't sure, i was worried of having a dominant dog which i am sure he isn't but has made me a little paranoid. As he is very gentle with small children. I have just never owned a dog who is so interested with other dogs. And plus with all our other family dogs have never researched so much, we just went on human kindness, but also discipline. I have also been told by a fellow dog owner to be aware of a trainer who says there dogs will put your dog into place which is why i am enquiring. It was actually a training school i rang, and when i said i am quite happy with all other aspects of training, just what kind dog socialising they do we went into details. So i am thinking maybe a behaviourist is the next step. As the training school does sit stay busy areas etc. I really wondered if there were any special kind of training classes for dog on dog socialising as he missed out on 5 or 6 months. Off lead is fine just meeting dogs on lead which i know we don't need to do but i thought would keep him well rounded. I am just very worried now, when i look up dominant dogs and the sort of behaviour, as my dog does quite a few like putting his head on your lap or pushing at you or attention. I am hoping i have a case of paranoia as in most cases he will submiss.

He doesn't sound dominant at all, especially that he lies down when other dogs approach, I always like that in dogs I meet -the ones I can't stand are the ones that just charge up to mine without any manners at all, those WILL get told off by mine, but when they approach sensibly like that, lay down and then invite to play -that's lovely sensible  behaviour. :) Having said that, you need to teach a good recall so that you can stop him from going up to other dogs until you have had a chance to ask the other owner if it is okay -not all other dogs will WANT to play, or be friendly, of course. It's typical Golden behaviour to love everyone and everything! :)

We have to get him to sit and stay if other dogs are around as they are just too interesting for him. Then if the owners have no problems i enjoy to let him off for a run. It's just on lead behaviour i find a problem.

Id definately NOT give her money for her advice!

Dominant behaviour (between dogs ) is NOT what you have just described. A dog wishing to dominate (which is what she means there.. not dominant - ill expand on that in a mo), would stand stiffly over another dog, probably with a stiff tail wag followed up by a paw on the other dogs neck/shoulder area. There would be a fair bit of starey stiff movements, certainly no looking away from the wannabe dominant dog.
Of course this is just the dog determining if he is or isnt dominant over the other dog - i believe this happens in dogs who want to be dominant over the other dog. Mostly because dogs can tell from very little interaction generally who is and isnt dominant.

A naturally dominant dog with other dogs will NOT need to push others around unless its a reprimanding action, provoked by say an undersocialised dog who doesnt understand the rules (berdoingy annoying puppies for instance, generally those who are behaving like puppies longer than they really ahve a right to).

Your dog sounds as if he is a little boisterous but he certainly seems to be reading the signs, looking away is an appeasing gesture, it means 'yep, ok i defer to you'... in your dogs case followed up with 'now lets PLAY'..

My dog Rocks frequently displays wannabe dominant dog behaviour - every dog he meets is challenged. If he IS dominant over that dog and the other dog submits readily, he then pushes the point home by bullying it (forcing it to roll over and submit further). If the other dog IS naturally dominant and backs up his own role, then Rocky will fight. Obviously this is unwanted behaviour and he doesnt get the chance to display it. This is however because he is underconfident and his terrier breeding and his past experiences have taught him to beat up other dogs before they can beat HIM up. Cant blame him for that really!

A naturally dominant dog wouldnt have to do any of those thigns unless challenged seriously, they are generally the calm, confident yet slightly 'aloof' with others type dogs, who seem to sort of rise above it all.

Your dog sounds a very diplomatic sort of a guy for 18 months old, all i would do in his case is make sure he meets a wide mix of dogs, so he learns how to interact nicely with all types. You dont want him to be so submissive bully dogs think he's a push over, nor do you want him to be brash and rude either.
Set him up to meet other dogs on lead as well. Before you do so, teach him a 'thats enough' cue, which means 'greeting over, we are going', adn make sure you are carrying some SERIOUSLY good rewards (squeezy cheese in a tube is great) - start off with dogs you know if possible, let them meet, sniff then ask him 'thats enough' and reward him well with the squeezy cheese.

Dogs do need to knowk that the time for play is NOT when they are on the lead - do be careful though not to let him approach others on the lead without asking - you wouldnt get a very good laerning experience if you tried to let your dog meet Rocky, more like a facefull of snarling leaping fear aggressive coward - and really try NOT to let him have any horrid experiences ( a 'behind me' is a good cue to learn too, where your dog gets behind you and OUT of the eye line of other dogs whcih cuts down on the starey starey offensive stuff before it starts).

Em

Wheres the clap hands smilie!! :D

Please don't let your boy meet a dog that will put him in his place as very often you do more harm than good and in our case our girl took an aversion to that sort of breed the 'behaviourist' tried to introduce!

Seems he just has a few manners issues which can be simple to iron out.

Gah just seen your last post.

WHAT have you read abotu dominant dogs.

Dominant or submissive or indifferent with other dogs is one thing - it exists and your dog may be naturally dominant over one dog, but come way below another in the pecking order.

Dominant between dogs and PEOPLE is an entirely different thing and IMNSHO is a load of old cack.

The theory suggests that dogs WANT to become dominant over people - this isnt true. Dogs repeat teh behaviours they have found rewarding.
If thats sitting when asked, recalling when asked, you dont think 'ooh my dogs dominant' do you?

So why would you think your dog was dominant if he found giving you a paw, sleeping in your bed, etc?

Its very VERY easy to inadvertently reward the WRONG thing. Imagine if your dog is comfy on the sofa, but theres no room for you. You ask him to move and he doesnt comply instantly (do YOU when asked to move from a comfy spot??), so you go to take hold of his collar and accidently you sharply tug a bit of hair on his neck and he growls.
You back off instantly, you are surprised and arent sure how to react. Your dog stays on the sofa.

Next time you want him to move you dont ask, you think 'im nto having THAT again' so you grab for the collar to hoik him off quick. Dog remebers that last time that hurt, last time he growled and you went away, so he growls again - and you go away.

That is ALL it can take to have a dog who growls at you when you go to get him off the sofa. His intention WASNT to keep the sofa to himself really, he just accidentally stumbled across a method of keeping his reward - the sofa.

So dogs dont set out to become 'dominant'.

What can of course happen, is not that you ALLOW your dog to dominate you, but that you in fact MAKE him. If you constantly reward him for doing things that control the course of YOUR life and how your home runs, then you will have a dog who dominates you.

There is still no inherent desire to be like that from the dog, and in fact to a dog, each 'dominating' dog i have seen, in person or on various training showso n the tv, is confused, unsettled and insecure when forced into that position.

Dont panic about dominance!

Em

Thankyou very much for your reply, but from what you have said i do recognise some behaviour, he does stand off with his tail up right wagging sometimes, i always read this was a dog unsure, but maybe not. It may have something to do with the fact i always stand off with lead pulled tight, but i always stand talking too the owners, but lately i have been a little apprehensive to go forward, baring in mind i always say he is a little jumpy. My husband met a little king charles today but said my dog tyler didn't do jumpy dog, as there a tiny child stroking the king charles so he was very well behaved. Plus he had hod of his collar and he let the little dog sniff him. The behaviour i describe when looking away is when he is off lead. So maybe he is a little dominant on lead. Do you have experience with this i would appreciate any info possibly private mail. I have not seen him being dominant when playing with a dog off lead as we meet dogs regularly. We met a pair of goldies and the male had a go a Tyler on lead, but later on in the day the owner was confindent enough to let them meet off and he told tyler off and tyler stayed away. Then a few weeks later when meeting them again soley off lead they didn't interact but would run side by side with a few other dogs which gave me the inclination it was lead meetings that were the problem. If you could spare your time i would really appreciate it theemax.

Regards Louise

Thankyou theemax this is what i already thought. Tyler is not allowed on the sofa or the bed and is quite happy with being handled round the collar or elsewhere by me or anyone else. He sleeps in the kitchen with a baby gate round the door and will go in there when told. I have always thought i was quite a dog savvy girl but after speaking to this trainer i am not sure. I have always known between dogs and human is different, and also found Tyler to submiss when off lead to other dogs, so when this trainer said he was dominant which i am not sure his is i did a google. i have read lots of books and don't think he comes under this title but it  has just made me worry. He has a few times been bit, and always came running back to us, after the owner had said there dog was alittle protective over the other dog they owned. I have never seen him growl or snap at another dog except for barking which i have assumed was in excitement, as if to say let me at him and play but i might be wrong. I appreciate your input as i love my dogs nature and don't want to spoil that by making a wrong descion.

Sack that trainer! my dogs have run of the house! they are allowed on the sofas/beds but when i want space to sit they move! i will not tolerate any peeing about they move and thats it (and they know it)
Dont you dare doubt yourself you sound like a great person, as long as you can set boundaries and stick to them thats all you need to live in harmony.

This dominance theory at times gets my goat, its seems an easy cop out for many trainers, and for someone to say that about your dog without even seeing it at play says it all.

Thankyou mygirl i guess i am looking for reassurance as i am happy with my friendly if not boistrous dog, but who is very gentle with children and we don't have any yet!!! I think i researched too much under google.

Nooo, thats not dominant, thats sometimes 'wannabe' but basically hes just testing the water there. Its kinda like 'will we play, will you kill me, i dont know, life is so exciting'...

My puppy does it, he isnt a dominant dog, but he's 12 months old and he is testing the boundaries right now, seeing which things he does get whcih responses (and the standing stiff putting a paw on teh shoulder of Rocky gets him told to naff right off! lol, but with my friensd bitch Leela, it gets him a wild game).

If he was a mature, adult dog, especially a dominant or middle of teh road one, which i suspect he will mature to be (middle of the road that is), you would see other young dogs coming up to him adn doing that.

The fact that he follows it up by looking away is great, it means he is saying 'hey, i dont know you, what will happen here - but woah, im not challenging you'.

Does that make sense??

Dont forget your lead will transmit your feelings down it to your dog. If you meet another dog and hold him abck on a tight lead and you are worried, he will be thinking 'hey, mums got a problem, whats the problem, ooh perhaps this isnt going to be nice'....

I used to know a boxer, a big BIG male boxer, who was walked in our local park sometiems by the wife, sometimes by the husband.

When the wife walked him, seh was clearly quite worried about how big and strong her dog was. She kept him on a tight short lead, if a close meeting was likely to happen, say passing on a narrow path, shed yank him back and over react like nobodies business (along the lines of 'keep away keep away, hell rip your dog to bits'), and her dog made a great show of hackles, teeth, 'keep away from me' behaviour.

Yet when wakled by the husband, who had him off elad or on a slack lead, who never fussed or bothered, this dog was the same, calm and quiet and never a hair on his neck raised.

Ill pm you some more cos ive said it on here bfore about on lead stuff.

Em

Em

Thankyou so much, i love my dog how he is apart from the on lead aerobatics. I was worried this trainer would come along and put him off dogs for life. She was very kind and never mentioned any payment as i was ringing up for a training class,  but as she walked dog in the area she said she would meet up and assess him. But also said her dogs would tell him off which set alarm bells ringing. I would appreciate any pm advice you could give me.

Have sent you a pm, its quite long...

If you like you could go meet this trainer WITHOUT your dog and see what her dogs are like etc, and what she is like as well. Id not recommend ANYONE saw a trainer or behaviourist with their dog the first time, you need to assess HER first!

Theres telling off and then theres telling off - one of my dogs could tell your dog off very nicely indeed, in a kind but firm way which would leave him understanding and respectful.

And one of my would pin him to the ground and terrify the life out of him - its hard to know what some trainers would call 'telling off' without seeing their dogs interacting wtih others first.

Em

I agree he has never been pinned down before in his life so would probably terrify him. My aunties dog tells him off and he accepts it.We have been thinking of getting her over just to teach him some more manners, as normally it's when they go away. I really think it is just what he has got used as we were not sure how to correct this behaviour, if he had run with a dog another dog on lead would not be so exciting but if we had not been so lucky to meet other playful dogs off lead he is pully and jumpy, and also the route we normally walk where there are lots of off lead dogs to run with has been built on so i think this may have exaggerated his bad behaviour. Tyler was 6 months when we got him and had no social skills he was like a jumpy puppy. He would bark at people and dogs before he got used to regular walks. Anyway will private mail you if thats ok theemx. Thought we were quite good with dog training till someone says otherwise. Anyway thanks for replies. I feel as though i have been harsh on my dog due to one persons say so, ie dominance i have looked at it towards people and he is just his normall affectionate self. I have been a little stern for no reason i think, he probably wonders why, and for no reason as he is my companoin.

Feel free to pm me.

What you ideally want to do, is teach him that meeting other dogs on the lead is no biggy. Its not hugely exciting, its not always going to result in a wild play session etc.

To do THAT you need to make YOU much more interesting and the best way to do it is to get him to link seeing and wanting to greet other dgos, with YOU breaking out the Treat Bar.... so you could try from a distance, where he can see but NOT greet or react too strongly, other dogs, and the second he sees them, suddnely you are the God of Foods, you have all manner of joyful things to eat that he wouldnt normally get (cheese spread in a tube, liver cake, garlic sausage, cheese, roast chicken etc), if treats arent his thing and even if they are you could also get him to form an association wtih other dogs = play and toys with you. Keep a few easily pocketable toys taht he REALLY likes, aside, only for walks. When another dog is approaching (at first at a distance, gradually you will make that smaller and smaller), you starting being MEGA fun wtih the special toys.

As an example of how well this kind of distraction and reward method works, my rotten horrible bully dog rocky, would RATHER play a game of ball wtih me, than go over and intimidate another dog.
I CAN now have him off lead safely in places where another dog may appear and he will ignore it and play with me. (and yes, there is a risk the other dog may be off lead or without an owner and follow us -but thts the same as if he was ON a lead so as far as i can work out, it makes no odds).

Now when we see other dogs in the parks or fields, he looks to me for teh ball!

This method will be less effective if the treats and toys are part of every day home life though, they do need to be kept 'special'.

HTH

Em

Hi he is not food motivated but i could try his mr rhino 'soft toy' i will try but we only bring this out now and again so will see how this goes, do i produce this when we meet other dogs on route? as i don't see how this would work. :)

Get him a few interesting, pref squeaky, soft toys if they are this thing.

What you are doing is showing him that when he is ON the lead, you are much more interesting than oter dogs.

If you do this when you are realy close to other dogs i suspect at first it wont work, because he is near enough to try and play with them, the motivation to play will be too strong.

So start in a place wehre he can see other dogs going by but only reacts mildly (ie a prick of the ears and looking at them, rather than hurling himself at them trying to bounce on their heads ). Then you bring out the fun toy whenever he sees and reacts, to other dogs.

Dogs = play time with MUM.

If you are just to walk past other dogs and if he trys to play he is held back firmly or told NO or dragged off, that will eventually set up a bad situation around meeting other dogs. Either he will try harder to play or he will sense that there is something bad about other dogs, which there isnt!

Em

Louise, you have a lovely dog, it sounds like, who is not aggressive towards other dogs, even when they are aggressive towards him at the moment.  Why do you want to push things?  Don't let other dogs "tell him off" - don't put him (or them) in the position where they can.  Avoid strange dogs or dogs you know will react this way to him.  Don't let him meet your aunty's dog if you know your aunt's dog is going to do this.  Like you say, after a certain number of other dogs have "told him off" then he may well generalise and decide that all dogs are like this, and like you say be put off other dogs forever, or even become aggressive to them. 

I don't buy into the idea that dogs "need" to be told off by other dogs.  Yes, there is a particular kind or type of very well socialised, mature and experienced adult dog who can tell puppies and boisterous youngsters off in a way which is not too extreme for their behaviour and will not overly scare the puppy.  And then there are adult dogs which are not particularly well socialised, may well dislike youngsters and will do a completely different kind of "telling off" which is way over the top for what the dog/puppy did to deserve it and is highly likely to have bad consequences, especially if the puppy was inside the socialisation period. 

It's not all adult dogs which know how to "tell off" a puppy in the right way.  Just like so many other bits of dog behaviour, people hear only the first part - they have latched onto the idea that "It is good for puppies to be told off by older dogs if they go too far", and they then accept any aggressive behaviour from the older dog as "normal" and even go so far as to continue to put their puppy in a situation where it will "be told off" by adult dogs, believing that this is for its good. 

What's really the case is that it is very hard to find the right type of adult dog to tell a puppy off, so much so that most people should forget about it.  Most puppies and young dogs who are over boisterous and playful, if you socialise them well with other friendly puppies and friendly adult dogs (ie ones which won't "tell them off"), will grow up to not be over boisterous and to be socially aware, just as a consequence of growing up.  After all, we were all toddlers who threw tantrums in supermarkets and pestered our parents with "I wants" once, but almost all of us have outgrown that behaviour.  My youngest dog is 17 months now and has been very well socialised with just about everything, including other dogs - but she has never been told off or experienced any kind of aggressive behaviour from another dog.  Despite this, she lies down when another dog approaches, sniffs them, and then invites them to play - which as Goldmali says, is v nice behaviour.  Your dog, it sounds like, does this too - so please let him keep his nice temperament and don't let him experience aggression from other dogs in the guise of "telling him off".

I didn't really want him told off by strange dogs i don't know, this why i became worried but i now believe i have been a little overly worried and there are nice ways to comabat this minor problem. In regards to my aunties dog they get on well when he is not ott and bugging her and a little nudge in the right direction form her sorts him out. But he is used to her and vice versa. Thankyou for your advice. It's all helping.

Hi Louise!

If you want any further reading (lol if your eyes arnt swimming enough from all this great advice!!)
    I find this behaviourist really interesting to read, she's Norwegian (so no bias there!!...MUCH!) which obviously means she's fantastic! we all are ;)
   Her name is Turid Rugaas this is her website, click on the Q's and answers. (my dog 'Lungs' at others..... should be 'lunges'! its not too well translated in places!)
http://www.turidrugaas.com
HTH
:D

thanks huskygal i will have a look, you don't sound biased at all!!! :).

I had a look at the site it's really good, do believe it is learned behaviour and i suppose my reaction which is to tell him off hasn't helped matters.

Hi, I have a 2 year old dobermann who I thought was aggressive or dominant.  I rang a behaviourist who was going to teach my dog good manners but I never went - this was using her own dogs and I really didn't fancy it.  Eventually I did get a behaviourist in and I now attend training classes again once a week.  I kept my boy on the lead and only let him off if there wasn't any other dogs about.  He hasn't actually ever had a fight with a dog (I thought I'd better mention that), but he would play for a while and then basically start pawing the dog and then a dog would growl at him and it would be lots of barking etc..  My dog actually lays down (as if to play when dogs approach him).  Last week I had him off the lead and a boxer appeared into the field where I was (about 200 yards away and the owner was nowhere in sight), anyway my boy hadn't noticed the dog coming (but I had), there wasn't any time to get him on lead so I ran and called him so he followed me, then obviously the dog caught up and my boy saw him, they sniffed each other, I called my dog and he came, but then another dog (a staff) came running over and I could see a young girl (in the distance) coming after them but then they both came and approached him it was all very stiff and lots of sniffing (actually my boy was looking in my direction and looked pretty worried), but then I called again and he came to me and I threw his ball and he chased it, the dogs eventually ran back to the girl who had been calling them.  My heart was racing, but I was very proud of my boy, it is really only the second time since I have kept him on lead and only let him mix with certain dogs (since September 2005) that this has happened, what I mean is dogs approaching him while he is off lead.  I had lost my confidence with him but I think all the hard work must be paying off. 

Sounds like you are doing  well, we don't have a problem off lead he is a dream and a dog lover, just on lead meeting for us i a nightmare!!

Well have been trying all sorts of methods and things were going well, till an off lead uneutered male dog approached Tyler who was on his lead, i let them sniff as there wasn't anything else i could do as the dog had come over to us, just as i was about to pull Tyler away ( i have been letting him have a quick sniff and before he has chance jump we walk on ) the other dog had a go at him, but never mind we will keep trying.