What breed are we talking about here ?  not trying to pick on any breed im just wondering..

Thanks for everyones help.

We have been in contact with his breeders, who have been wonderful and the problem (which seems to be my problem more than Jeds - lack of disipline) will be sorted out between us.

brilliant,im really glad you phoned them :)

Natalie

I'm glad that you are getting it sorted :) Tara was (or tried to be) a very wilful youngster :) Do you take Jed to training classes ?? Tara has benefitted enormously through being trained. She loves it and is SO wanting to please :) Aussies do benefit from lots of mind work (in my small experience :D ) and it may just be that you are not stretching him enough mentally :) Tara is just about maturing now, at nearly four :D :D You've always had lots of determination, so I'm sure that you'll get it sorted :)

Daisy

Glad to hear they are being supportive Natalie - hope everything turns out well, good luck. :)

I'm glad you contacted the breeders, but I'm not so sure that a lack of discipline is an explanation of the problem.  There is no such thing as a dog which mucks around or takes the proverbial P or is the way he is because of a lack of discipline, just dogs which are undermotivated to comply or dogs which don't understand what you want. 

The answer to the behaviour Jed showed, is in the few seconds prior to it, because something external to him or internal to him made him behave that way in the few seconds before he lunged at you.  The answer isn't in vague things like "he needs to know who's boss" or "he's taking the P" or "he's dominant" or "he needs to be disciplined" - none of these explanations make sense in terms of learning theory.

Please don't join the many people who think that the way to deal with aggressive behaviour is with punishment.  Dogs are 95% of the time aggressive through fear - and the fear can be of anything under the sun.  Usually that fear arises through poor/under socialisation but can also be through bad experiences after the socialisation period. 

If you punish aggression, you are only punishing that aggressive response to fear - you are not changing the fear itself or the way the dog feels - the dog will feel exactly the same as before about whatever he was afraid of, in fact may even feel worse because his only outlet of showing how he feels has been stopped.  If you use punishment to treat fear, he may not show the fear through aggression for a long time, but then something will happen which will scare him just that bit more - perhaps whatever he is afraid of will come a bit closer to him - and he will then bypass the response you have punished (snarling for eg) and will skip straight to biting.  This is why it is dangerous to treat aggression with positive punishment - you are only punishing that particular response, not any other (worse) response, and you are not solving the way the dog feels about it.

The only way to successfully treat fear aggression is by desensitisation to the feared stimulus.  But first you need to figure out what the stimulus is, to be able to sort out a programme of desensitisation.  So, we were all encouraging you to think of what the stimulus was which triggered this, and I'm just very dubious that it's now being put down to "lack of discipline", which is an explanation that makes no sense in terms of learning theory.

I'd still advise you to take him to the vet and get all physical causes for this behaviour ruled out first.  Then ask your vet for a referral to an APBC registered behaviourist.  But you can take a horse to water....

Oh Natalie, I really feel for you here and wouldn't wish this experience on anyone.  However, please, please take onetwothree's advice to heart because I'm also very worried about this diagnosis of "lack of discipline" on your part. Only I've also seen dogs who ended up showing genuine aggression following punitive methods based on "dominance" and "pack order" because mutual respect simply can't be achieved through making a dog fearful.  Obviously the attitude of any dog owner is going to be reflected by how their dog behaves but some of the happiest and most delightfully natured dogs I've known have been owned by the most "undisciplined" of people! 

There are all sorts of reasons that might have caused Jed to behave in such an out of character but the first person to check them out should be your vet. Jed has reached adolescence and this can result in a degree of over-confidence - I've got an 8 month old myself! - not that this over-confidence should result in aggression but certainly, this is an age where reinforcing basic training and keeping the dog well and truly occupied seems to pay dividends. Especially, I would suggest if you have a working breed.

Best of luck in whatever you do, though and sorry you are having such a horrid time.

Must have been scary for you Natalie {{{Hug}}} but I'd go with 123 and roz. I have a rescue boy who growls for no reason I can see but I decided against being tough with him as I feel it's a hangover from his first home and due to something that happened then being badly dealt with. I'm sure if I was to be "firm" with him he would feel the need to defend himself and the problem would escalate.

At the moment I wouldn't be too quick to blame yourself or Jed

Can I just please say that I think in cases of aggression or apparently motiveless snapping/biting/growling etc - I think that PROFESSIONAL advice should be sought from someone who actually sees the dog in the home - and it could be dangerous and irresponsible to take advice from an internet forum - other than a bit of support :)

If I had a problem like this my vet, and my breeder would be my first ports of call - and I would ask my breeder to come and see if they could see where I was going wrong... then a behaviourist.

I would imagine that the breeder is just advising setting boundaries - not punishment etc - but I could be wrong and I wouldn't like to comment on their advice because they know the breed, the lines, and any problems better than me!

I'm glad you've been in touch with the breeders - if I'd bred him, I'd sure as hell want to know about it - and I thought they would!

Chloe's suggestion is sound AND she is talking from the experience of having a puppy then a baby - ok I accept that there is a bit of difference in size between Willis and Jed - but they are both still dogs :D - and for your own peace of mind, I would also take Chloe's advice.

{{hugs}}

Margot

"I would imagine that the breeder is just advising setting boundaries - not punishment etc - but I could be wrong and I wouldn't like to comment on their advice because they know the breed, the lines, and any problems better than me!
"

yes i agree with that,defintally.
these are very strong minded dogs,they do need handling with someone who knows the breed. its great that natalie has been able to turn to the breeder for advise. nowhere did natalie mention punishment anyway.

I just wanted to point out that no one here, in this entire thread, has actually offered any BEHAVIOURAL advice. 

All that anyone, myself and others, have tried to do is to discover what triggered the incident and to advise Natalie to go to her vet and a behaviourist.  This is not behavioural advice, it is practical advice, and yes it can be given over an internet forum, just as we can all tell someone online who has a piece of metal stuck in their arm to go to a doctor.

>I'm glad you contacted the breeders, but I'm not so sure that a lack of discipline is an explanation of the problem.

No, but you are questioning the advice of the breeder - who, after all has had the benefit of a one-to-one conversation with Natalie.

I'm questioning that "lack of discipline" is an answer & it's of no relevance whether it's the breeder, her OH, god or the queen who's given "lack of discipline" as an explanation.  Bad reasoning for dog behaviour is bad reasoning, whoever it comes from.  I know of many breeders who don't know the first thing about training or behavioural work and are still at the "whack your dog on the nose with newspaper" stage of advice (not saying that Natalie's is, by the way).  And I also know of breeders who understand dog behaviour.  However, I don't know of any APBC registered behaviourists who use punishment for aggression problems, because it is a pre-requisite of joining the APBC that they do not.  Therefore, my advice would be to consult an APBC behaviourist (after the vet, of course), who we KNOW will use methods that show an understanding of learning theory, and not the breeder - who MAY have a knowledge of learning theory, but also, equally well, may not.

As I understand it, Jed has now been returned to his breeder.   This has been a brave step for Natalie and her OH to take - but in the circumstances as set out here, I think it probably is the right one. 

Aussies are wonderful dogs, but they do need owners who can be strong-minded about their training.

Onetwothree:  for your information, the breeder is a well-respected and trusted breeder, who will evaluate Jed thoroughly over the next few days before deciding which type of home is suitable for him.   There is absolutely nothing wrong with the breeding - sadly it would appear that Natalie's home was not the right one for Jed( or Jed was the wrong puppy for Natalie :( )

I must say that I do take exception to your statement that many breeders do not know the first thing about training or behavioural work - as a breeder (albeit on a very very small scale) I think it is the responsible thing to do to know about the behaviour and training of my particular breeds - and I know that I am not alone in thinking along these lines.   Such sweeping statements would make all breeders out to be totally irresponsible - which I certainly am not - and neither are others on this board.

Margot