I don't know what to do. I think Jed has just tried to bite me.

I just stood up to go in the kitchen and he lunged himself at me, I think it is only because I screamed his name, and put the laptop between me and him that he didn't actually get to me, but he was still barking and snarling, but not in the way he does when he is playing. I grabbed his collar and put him out the back door, now he is barking out there and I don't know if I dare open the door to let him back in.

What can I do? I can't let him back in the same room as Thomas. I am sat here crying my eyes feeling like a right idiot, DH is out working, and if I tell him he will say Jed will have to go back to his breeder... we love Jed to bits but we can't risk Thomas, especially as I didn't do anything to Jed - well not that I am aware of anyway.

What can I do?

Natalie, how horrible for you :(

You have to try really hard to think in detail about what happened just before he lunged at you.

Where were you, where was he?  What were you both doing?  Were you walking away from him or towards him?

There is always something which triggers things like this, and it's only once you know what the trigger is that you can work to desensitise the dog to it.  So, before you can do anything about it, you have to identify the trigger....

yes we need more information, & did he back down easily.

have you made any changes @ home recently/changed his routine etc?

did he have a toy or food?or was asleep? could you have kicked him or stood on his fur accidently?

were there any noises outside at the time?

does he usually eat & sleep in the kitchen?

As far as I know Jed was just walking in from the kitchen and as I said I was just standing up to go in the kitchen, I didn't do anything different than I do normally, I wondered if maybe Jed got a pain somewhere as I stood up, but he didn't seem to be in any pain whilst I was shoving him out of the door, and besides I have never hurt him, why would he think it was me?

I am in such a state, with out knowing the reason why he did it, I can't let him back in. I don't think I should let him back in for Thomas' sake, but I can't just leave him out in the back garden.

No I didn't touch him in any way, he was walking back through from the kitchen, I couldn't hear any noises outside, but that doesn't mean there weren't any.

No, he always eats in his crate (which is in the dining room)

The only part of the routine we have changed is his breakfast, but he seemed to be doing well with that, and although does still go mad when he hears me waking up he does stop as soon as I get down stairs.

Was the lighting behind you and you suddenly appearing as you stood up he didn't recognise you for a moment and thought you were an intruder.

I have had this happen in my freinds house with ehr dobes and once I spoke they realised who I was.

If he had just woken up and ambled in???  As you say he stopped when you shouted, adn I suspect now the barking is al about confusion.

Is there epilepsy in the breed?

did he continue having a go whilst you were putting him out.

i think the kitchen "could" be the key. what was he doing in there?

He was still barking and snarling, but I think if he had have really wanted to go for me again he could have done easily and he didn't.

He likes to lie down on the kitchen floor because it is cooler in there, we had been playing in the living room, then he sauntered off into the kitchen and about 2 minutes later he was coming back in and that was when it happened. He didn't run in from the kitchen, he was walking normally and then as he came around the living room door, I was just standing up and he jumped for me.

maybe you smell different because of the pregancy hormones or something????

i think he could be seeing the kitchen as "his",just have a sheck around in there to see if hes stolen & hidden something in there? or is guarding something (toy/chew/bone)

since youve been pregant have you been different with him? "more carefull"?

>maybe you smell different because of the pregancy hormones or something????

Missed this, yes I think I do smell differentlyto him, he has never been one for sniffing people (in certain places if you get my drift!) but he hasn't left me alone for the last couple of weeks.

ok...well theres a start. im NEVER likely to have a baby....what about other people on here who have had babies,have your dogs reacted differently in your pregancy?

Wouldn't he have acted differently when he first smelt the smell though? I mean other than the sniffing.

dunno...maybe he did but you didnt notice? (im really just thinking out aloud & hopefully something will click)

No, mine never have.

He was still barking and snarling, but I think if he had have really wanted to go for me again he could have done easily and he didn't

ok ,dont worry too much about that,he could have just be reacting to you taking charge of him.

any temperment or epilepsy in his line?
when he was wondering did he seem diorientated or anything?

I haven't been different with him since I was PG, there was no need to really not even thought about it!

There is nothing in the kitchen, well, there is the cat's (empty) food bowl, which Jed has always tried to get to before the cat, but he has never been bothered by any of us going near any food he has (and especially never bothered by us going near the food bowls whilst they are empty)

No, no hereditary complaints, I couldn't see him as he was walking in from the kitchen (though I  could hear him) but he didn't seem odd or disorientated just before he did it.

i will just add that each of mine has tryed it on ONCE. & once only!
now i dont hit my dogs in general life,but IF they ever try to have ago i do,hard on the nose & then pushed into a down by their collars so head down on the floor out of the way. i will add this is AS they are being nasty though,not afterwards.
most dogs DO try it at some point

What if he'd have tried it on with my son? He is 4 years old, wouldn't have stood a chance. I have grown up with dog's and never had one of them try to bite me, even when accidents have happened and tails got stood on etc.

I don't know what to do.

thats why youve got to find what caused it. dogs dont just do this for no reason. youve got to find the cause.

If you're that worried about it Natalie, you could get a muzzle for Jed when he's in the same room as Thomas - just for now, while you work out what caused this.

I agree - could he be seeing the kitchen as "his" territory?  Is his crate in there or in your bedroom? 

It does sound very worrying, from what you describe.  I'm sure an undersocialised dog could see someone standing up (getting bigger) as threatening and react in a defensive way, but I'm sure Jed isn't undersocialised, because you sound like v switched on dog owners really.

If I were you, I'd get a muzzle or have someone hold Jed on a lead and recreate the incident.  Sit in the same chair, put Jed in the kitchen, when you can see him coming in, stand up.  If he goes for you again, that's the trigger.  Then you need to do lots of desensitisation with people standing up.

I wouldn't over-react until you at least know the cause of this.  If you're not sure what it is and you feel like you can't trust Jed, then put a muzzle on him and observe him and see what happens if/when he reacts again.

We haven't really got a way of separating them though onetwothree, other than Jed outside or in his crate (both of which I couldn't leave him with all day) or Thomas up in his room all day which again I can't do.

I know my OH, and as much as he loves Jed as well, when he get's home and finds out, there won't be a second chance for Jed with having Thomas.

I can't stand this, I don't understand why he has done it, I don't want to take the easy option and give up before we know why, but at the same time I can't risk Thomas getting hurt.

dogs dont just have a go.

(unless for a medical reason pain/brain problem)

there most be a reason & not necissarily that hes a nasty dog.

hes growing up now,has he been pushing his luck or anything in anyway?????
try to think back

He is coming up 8 months, he has been trying to push boundrys I suppose, not always sitting straight away, or the odd bark to try and get our attention.

He had a stage where he wouldn't come in from outside, he didn't seem to want to walk past any external doors, but over the past week or so he has been coming in and out as normal again.

About a month or so ago we started to give him a different training treat, and then we noticed that he had developed a bit of a bald patch on his front leg, so we changed back to the normal treats, and his fur is mostly grown back now.

I think that is all of the 'strange' behaviours over the last couple of months.

ok so how have you dealt with these things? & how did he react to your reacations?

the doors thing is odd

This si the classic age for dogs to spook at things that have not bothered them before, carrier bags clowing in the wind or strange static objects,a dn as they are at puberty an agressive bold response may be one they try whereas in the apst retreat woudl ahve been theri first choice. 

I still feel that you took him by surprise when you stood up.  He perhaps didn't know you were there or couldn't see you properly.  You then in his view acted strangely/aggresively towards him hich made him defensive (the snarling when you put him out).

im sorry, try not to panic, its not the end of the world, i would put thomas in another room and bring jed in and do some commands with him, then keep them seperated till you have an action plan which others on here will help you with im sure, good luck, thinking of you.

I don't know if I dare open the door to let him in :( If I don't know what I did last time to set him off, I don't know what to avoid doing this time.

Natalie, when dogs mean to bite and to do harm, they usually do.  It might seem like your laptop somehow prevented him from biting you, but in reality if he had wanted to bite you, then he could presumably have bitten your legs or your hands - the laptop can't have protected your whole body (unless it's one huge laptop!).  And like you say, when you put him out, he was still snarling and you thought he could have bitten you but didn't.  So try to find some comfort in the fact that he didn't actually bite and work from there.

of course you can. go & get his lead, open the door,firmley put his lead on & firmley walk him into the house & put him into the down at your feet.

going back to the kitchen thing,is that where his food is stored?

does he watch you preparing his meals in the kitchen?

(im really grasping at straws here)

I thought the same onetwothree, if he had really have wanted to get to me he could have done, but the same applies as above if it had have been Thomas that stood up at that point... well I don't even want to think about what could have happened.

Jed's food is stored in the kitchen but we always send Jed to his crate whilst we do his food, we found he jumped up if he was in the same room, but he managed to control himself if he was in his crate, so he hasn't seen us get his food for a good few months if not longer.

I am not as brave as that Michelled! Especially with a lead, I expect he would feel my nerves through it.

id come & do it for you if you were close enough. Aussies can be buggers at times,i bet hes just testing you.
you need to be FIRM & in CONTROL. (not nasty or anything)

what about if you go out there,put his lead on walk him around the garden for abit,then bring him in? still on the lead?

Oh Natalie  how awful for you - how frightened you must have felt/feel!

At the moment because of what has happened your adrenelene levels will be high and will smell accordingly - and as I understand it, dogs don't like this scent (which is why often people showing suck peppermints).  So, after a cup of tea, go into Jed with a no-nonsense attitude, put him on his lead, and go over him carefully - maybe he has hurt himself.

If he still seems to be growly aggressive, then phone the vet - get him checked over, to see if there is a physical problem.

In the meantime, until you are sure about what caused this, I would go back to basic basics - not let Thomas near him alone, etc

{{{hugs}}}

Margot  

Jed's food is stored in the kitchen but we always send Jed to his crate whilst we do his food, we found he jumped up if he was in the same room, but he managed to control himself if he was in his crate, so he hasn't seen us get his food for a good few months if not longer.


im kinda just thinking aloud here,might all be rubbish,but "Something" may be relevent,maybe,

i wonder if by putting him away to prepare his food, hes seen that as some type of punishment? so when you go into the kitchen (to do his food) hes put away? (it dosent matter that then you feed him in his crate or anything,he might not see that as a reward,the coming out of the craTE MAY BE THE REWARD)

also by doing this you arent instilling any manners into the dog, that he dosent get his dinner till hes quiet (but not just quiet cos he cant be anything else)

I hadn't thought of it that way round but how does that connect to what has happened this morning?

Also we don't send him to his crate at any other time, if we need him to go in (if the front door is going to be open for a while or something) I give him a frozen chicken piece and he happily takes it to his crate of his own accord.

Margot I will give him a going over, but I have got to pluck up the courage to go and see him yet! He is walking about outside and playing with his toys out there, he doesn't seem to be in any pain anywhere, in fact he looks as if he has completely forgotten what happened.

I think you are right, to let things calm down first:  he will have calmed down, and your anxiety levels will also drop.   Have you thought of giving his breeder a call? 

Margot

I feel silly Margot, as lovely as they are what if they think we have done something wrong? After all of the palava we went through at the time...

I might not have a choice when OH get's home anyway. :(

I think they would rather have a call telling them what happening and could they suggest any help than one just saying we are bringing him back :)

I think I am going to have to call OH and see if he can get home early, I can't leave Jed outside all day, and I really don't want to risk opening the door.

I wish I understood why he did it, I could then get him in and not do what it was I did - if that makes sense?!

Just a thought but you said that you couldn't see him properly when you were getting up to go into the kitchen.  Don't know about there but it's quite a bright day today here, so it could of been that he was going from somewhere dark and into somewhere brighter lit and that he also couldn't make you out either and he was just guarding as he didn't realise who you were?

Just a thought!

esp if she smells different

That was to the word, what I as thinking. If she was with the window behind her and moved slightly, it would of shocked him into a guard. Maybe he's not good in the morning either? If he had wanted to bite though, he would of.

comeon,he cant be that bad. just go & sit out in the garden with him & see what he does. i cant believe you are that scared of him

it might be something they have experinced with others of their line?

Natalie, I really would take him to the vet and get the vet to thoroughly check him over.  In fact - I wouldn't even waste more time thinking about what it could possibly have been until the vet has said it's nothing physical.  Tell the vet about the bit of fur which disappeared and all the other details you can think of - they might add up to something physical to the vet.

Having said that, there could well be something about the pregnancy which is freaking him out, especially if you're bonded to him more closely than others in your family.

The other thing to consider is that it's at this age (8 months - adolescence) when people see how well their dog is socialised.  The thing is - the socialisation period is only up to between 12-20 wks (min and max times really).  But once that time has passed, you don't suddenly see your dog reacting aggressively to things he is afraid of.  Many more months pass and people often think they have a well socialised dog.  It's not until adolescence comes along that they see what they really have.  Then trainers get calls from people saying "I've no idea why he's done it - he's never done anything like this before - it can't be bad socialisation because he's never done it before".  That's not the case - to be aggressive in response to fear (rather than just afraid) requires an amount of confidence in a dog, which a dog is unlikely to have before early adulthood.  Which is why you see most problem behaviours at about this age. 

Not saying that Jed is not well socialised, because I really don't know enough about what you've been doing with him to comment on that, but I just thought I would point out that problem behaviour manifesting at this age is not unusual, even if that doesn't make it easier to deal with.  But - go to the vets pronto - make an appointment for today.

totally agree with 123.

I hadn't thought of it that way round but how does that connect to what has happened this morning?

Also we don't send him to his crate at any other time, if we need him to go in (if the front door is going to be open for a while or something) I give him a frozen chicken piece and he happily takes it to his crate of his own accord.



maybe as you were going into the kitchen (now his feeding times have changed) maybe he thought you MAY make him go in his cage.
he MIGHT be a bit unsettled because his feeding time has changed . Maybe because his feeding times have changed it now seems he could go into the cage AT "any" time.

Let us know how you get on though and the best of luck!