I am confused as to what KC reg actually means in regards to the puppy you end up buying??

I am noticing a lot of puppies advertised for sale say 'not KC reg'- does this mean that the puppies and or mother and father are not good enough to be registered (ie not in the breed standard)?

And if I buy a puppy who is KC reg from a KC reg mother & father is this guaranteeing anything to me??



Thanks!!

You'll be glad to know that there's no shortage of info on this matter if using the board's [search] facility :)

regards, Teri

No one can guarantee you anything when you buy a puppy after all it is a living animal

By buying a puppy that has been registered with the KC & whose parents are fully health tested & seeing the mother at the same time as the puppy(not necessarily with the puppies though)& whose breeder gives a lifetime backup, you will be doing the best anyone can

You should be able to see a copy of the pedigree & possibly a photograph of the father & copies of the health tests results

There are lots of reasons why puppies are not KC registered-mother over age(ie 8 years)or who has already had 6 litters, the bitch or dog are not KC registered(although in the case of Border Collies this doesn't always exclude the puppies from being registered as they have another registry that the KC accept), the parents in the case of Irish Setters are not tested for CLAD, one or both parents have endorsements on their KC registrations that their progeny are not to be registered are just some examples

The cost of registering puppies isn't huge & so anyone using that excuse isn't being honest

if you want to show (breed) your dog must come with KC reg.

there are tons of reasons why pups may not be KC reg, & they do not sadly indicate good breeders.

eg.
parents are endorsed not for breeding,yet they have been,so pups cant be registered. (most endorsements will be lifted if the dogs meet breed standards/pass health tests-so the fact that the endosrements havent been lifted????)

breeder has bred the bitch  too many times in one year
breeder has breed a bitch over 8 years old

they may be just pet dogs that have come with no kc registration, & are not good breed standard

they could of course be very nice,but the breeder does not like the KC,want to give them more money.

:rolleyes:there are more reasons proabley,but those are all i can think of right now!

It could also mean that either sire or dam had been stolen and so no registration details were available.

we paid pet price for our show quality pup...the endorsements can't be lifted because that was the agreement...even with all the right checks and prooving quality in working and showing we still can't register pups although we've been  we can still breed.  It just means our pups would cost less because they will not be able to be used for showing or KC re breeding...but would be okay as pets or other dog sports/activities.   We do not intend to breed though. But I think people with thiis type of contract will not feel so encouraged to do all the health checks because they are already outside the 'club' if you catch my drift...so you would need to check that those were properly completed.

With my other dog the endorsements could be lifted if she passed the eyes and hip tests because we paid show/breeding price for that pup to keep our options open..but again we don't want to breed.

I worry though that many people are like me and too responsible about breeding so don't intend to get involved in it...but other people have no thoughts on breeding except to hatch cute pups to sell them and they are the ones who will become the new breeders.... so grill the breeders on the phone before you look at the cute pups and any doubts about the breeder walk away.

In short - yes, you definitely want to look for a KC reg puppy.  It will increase the chances of your puppy being from the right sort of breeder, it will mean that if you ever, in future, want to show or compete with your puppy, you can, and should you ever want to breed yourself (not that I'm advising first time dog owners to breed), but should you/one want to do so, you would be able to KC register your puppies (as long as you also used a stud dog which was KC reg).

Have a look at www.the-kennel-club.org.uk for more info.

Thanks all- Just wanted to check I was doing the right thing by being fussy !

Buying a puppy is obviously a life time (at least a long time!) commitment so it is worth the wait for the right one, in the mean time I have a lot of time to ask questions!!

Jane

I would pointout that Kennel club registraion alone is not enough.  You ned to find a reputable breeder who breeds from health tested typical stock for breed improvement and maintenance as theri prime aim.

The best way of locating such a breeder, or checking a breeder out is to contact the relevant bred club or cluns for the breed.

Yes...

..I know KC breders who keep the dogs badly...and the pups can be aggressive.... do not assume it guarentees well cared for dogs. She sees no fault in her dogs or the way she keeps them because it is quite legal and she has fullfiled all the requirements of the KC all the health checks ( ....no temperment tests though because her dogs would fail and it is not a requirement! )  ...and shows her dogs at Crufts....I don't doubt that she loves her dogs to bit really but it certainly  is just not the start in life I would want for my dogs and I don't want to encourage this type of breeder by giveng her money to 'rescue' a pup from her.  

I've heard of another local KC reg breeder who when a friend saw the pups she reported the lady to the RDSPCA because the dogs were stacked up in filthy crates....

It is personal choice who you get your pups from .... being KC reg helps but you have to use your instincts. When you buy a pup...if you feel you are rescuing it from the breeder walk away...because otherwise you encourage bad practice. ... and you won't get the right help and support from the breeder while you settle your pup in...as well as you might get a 'difficut' dog.

buying from  a person who belongs to the breed club is usually a good idea too. Breed clubs often have their own code of ethics which breeders adhere to.

Not all do though, there are still a lot of respectable breeders who are show people and quite high in that world, that don't even have the basic hip scores done. Its a bit of a mine field really, knowing who to buy from. I personally wouldn't rule out someone who dosen't show or work their dogs simply for that reason alone. if someone has healthy dogs, that are not over-bred, of super nature, and good conformation and pedigree, living in the home, possibly having grown up with children, and certainly being the trustworthy pet that goes everywhere with the owners, with the relevant health tests and brings the pups up in the home, well socialised and happy, and give wonderful lifetime back-up including rehoming should it be necessary, then what is the problem there? They may be as difficult to find as good show/working breeders, but they are out there and i think it is wrong to dismiss them simply because they don't show. They may do it simply for the love of breeding, raising the litter and giving someone a wonderful, lifetime pet, rather than to produce another show dog, but they certainly won't be doing it just for the money because they will have spent just as much in terms of care, feeding etc as any other person you regard here as a 'good breeder'. Would you really consider someone like this a 'BYB'

>with the relevant health tests

If the Breed Club ethics demand hip tests then that is the relevant test.  Going through the breed club is the best way a pet purchasers can hope to get the healthy long lived companion they are looking.  Remember you don't have to show or work your dogs to belong to a breed club, using their health and breeding information networks and adhering to their codes.  Membership is generally a few quid a year there is really no reason for a responsible breeder not to be in one.

Agreed, but what I am saying, and I know this to be true, is that some breed club members do not/or in the recent past did not, hip score their dogs. I thought most dogs were hip scored, which is why is said hip scores and the relevant tests. I know hip scores are relevant, but i don't know the names of all the others that you all often refere to :)

Hip Scoring is pretty universal, but there are eye tests for very many breeds, blood tests for Hamophillia and von Willebrnds, heart testing for various heart problems prevalent in some breeds, Elbow Scoring, and thankfully there are DNA or toehr tests for some other genetic diseases.

Breed clubs were asked some years ago by the Kennel Club to draw up codes of Ethics applicable to therir specific breeds.

These will cover things such as breders responsibilities, health testing, number of litters, ages for breeding etc.

For example in my own breed all dogs must be hip scored and hold a current (less than 12 months at timeof mating) eye test certificate, and bitches must be over 2 years when a first litter is born, ideally shoudl be under five years old when a first litter is born, and not have more than 4 litters in their lifetime.

It will cover age pups are homed and lots of other areas of responsibility, such as breding to the breed standard, and looing after the welfare of pups and rehoming thsoe that need new homes or making provision for them..

Not many people in my breed hip score certainly in the particolours.  It is not a requirement of the breed club code, nor is it with many smaller breeds and bearing in mind it involves an aneasthetic, personally, I think that is appropriate.  I think it should always be down to breed clubs to decide what is appropriate as they are the largest concensus possible of opinion within a breed. 

Such a breeder if they don't show or work in my opinion would at the very least need to belong to the breed club, as else how are they to research breeding correctly?  |You cannot breed in a vaccuum.  If you are truly breeding good dogs then you need to be sure about what stud dogs and theri relatives are prodcuing, it is a bigger picture, and this is where the people who breed in isolation from a pet fall down.

A C breed registered dog can be shown and worked in field trials/gundog working tests, if you wish to show or compete in these disciplines you will NEED a KC breed registered dog.  All other disciplines can be participated in with a dog that is registered on the Obedience Register, whether it is pedigree or not.

I just cant get my head round paying "show/breeding" price! At the time a pup leaves for its new home it can only be said that it shows promise - no-one can tell whether the dog will be under/over size, whether its mouth will turn out right etc. and to charge extra without a cast iron guarantee (which cant be given at 8 to 10 weeks) that the pup will turn out as show quality is in my mind not the action of a good breeder. After all if the pup does turn out super and is shown, it is the breeder who gains the benefit without charging extra for the pup in the first place :(

Sorry - only the "does" should have been bold - cant correct it for some reason

In some breeds you can tell straight away if a pup has no chance of making the showring - mismarks, etc.

Yes, but whilst you can tell that some arent show quality, you cant tell that others are and to me it just goes against the grain to charge extra for "show quality" which cant be proved than less for a mismark etc. that can (if you follow)

I agree - the best that anyone can say is that a puppy 'shows promise'. In my breed you could reasonably charge less for mismarks or unilaterals (as they shouldn't be used for breeding, even if they never made the showring), but you wouldn't necessarily up the price because there was nothing obviously wrong at that stage. Too much can change between 8 weeks and 6 months, and it's a foolish breeder who advertises 'show quality' - the buyer only has to keep the advert and get on to Trading Standards when the pup doesn't live up to the advert!