Just read a most intresting report on a Dog Borstal. All breeds of uncontrolable dogs.
The Trainer Debbie who has been training dogs for 20years. NEVER rewards dog with food!
Very intresting!!! Body language, standing tall above them, and being firm.
A women after my own heart. That has always been my belief.
Debbie has saved many dogs from there final warning last chance.
Debbies training facilitys  SafePets uk    training@safepets.co.uk
I think it may be of intrest for anyone out there that is at there wits end.
With the dog they love, but just can't stand anymore of there behavour.
She also helps the owners.

Some of us who have had to pick up the pieces after dogs have been there might not be so enthusiastic......

Quite frankly I think that the Victoria Stilwell and dog borstal programs have changed dog training trends forever. I remember on most boards that when Victoria Stilwell first came on there were a lot of positive trainers shouting the odds about and against her .
Over a few weeks period many pet owners slowly but surely started to oppose those veiws on all these sites, why, they saw the results and saw that the dogs had no problems with the means of getting the results.
The same with Dog Borstal although all those owners and dogs were pretty much a write off, they were given the skills to carry on alone, some probably didnt and there is nothing anyone can do with owners like that.

Anyway pet owners dont really argue about these things, all the Victoria Stilwell posts on all the sites show the same trend towards both Dog Borstal and Victoria Stillwell. 
Underlying those pet owners voices was a dissatisfaction which was there all the time about the monopoly of what is often called positive training and before Vic Stilwell or dog Borstal came on TV.
It was the fact that owners were shown results and not told year in year out "Be patient, give more treats" resulting in no sign of any changes in their dogs.Certainly we are coming into a new era in dog training.
I also notice on the the safepets training site that the prices are not hidden, straight forward, quite clear black and white
'this is what you pay and this is what you get',
not just someone sitting in your home for an hour for a £100 persuading us that a non specified 'course of treatment' is needed and for an unsepecified length of time, the Stilwell and Borstal programs have made people less accepting and gulible.

How on earth can you even BEGIN to compare Victoria Stilwell and Dog Borstal??? Their methods are completely different to each other -except in that both keep going on about dominance.

If you re-read my post you will see I am refering to all the negative comments initialy on V Sitwell and by those making a living out of what they call positive training (apdt etc) and how that progressed to how pet owners started to comment on how V Sitwell was getting results, same with Dog Borstal and now pet owners are going elsewhere than the traditional APDT styles.
Prior to V Sitwell pet owners were being dictated to as to where they spend their money, which was so called positive training, that is not a method of training, it means nothing its simply used as a persuasive selling term, sorry if you have not got my points, I suppose the main one is the exposure to other methods has wisened pet owners up and that is a growing trend, you can see it on all these boards.

The success or otherwise of these TV trainers can't be judged by the programmes - only those intimitely involved will know just what is edited out and how long things take. Of course, only a fool will believe that there are no failures - any evidence of those will be left on the cutting-room floor! ;) :D

Pet owners are unfortunately being duped into thinking that the problems they've encouraged in their dogs can be 'fixed' in half an hour. :(

I wouldnt have thought the APDT as the be all and end all, I know of APDT trainers that still use check chains etc etc so they cant be that efficient at assessing their trainers, also I find a few APDT trainers lack the necessary people skills which all dog trainers should have.

However I am against these stupid programmes, as Jeangenie says they are editied, I remember on IMORT when VS was showing a family how to train a new puppy, it showed one take of her getting this puppy into a sit with a hand signal, this was an 8 week puppy, we all know this isnt possible, but did it show how she managed to do this NO.  I hate these programmes they are just about promoting the new JF's and we all know what the majority think of her methods several years down the line.

APDT use check chains Lisa? do you mean choke chains? I thought they had banned those?!

Yep check/choke same thing - they shouldnt use them but I know a few do, I bet they havent been assessed in a while.

We hear these things but who knows what goes on behind closed doors.

Or what goes on behind the anonymity of an internet forum?

>Over a few weeks period many pet owners slowly but surely started to oppose those veiws on all these sites, why, they saw the results and saw that the dogs had no problems with the means of getting the results.<

Claims made about the thinking of large numbers of people ring alarm bells with me.

Literally, I should think in certain cases, Tohme. :-(

I remember on IMORT when VS was showing a family how to train a new puppy, it showed one take of her getting this puppy into a sit with a hand signal, this was an 8 week puppy, we all know this isnt possible, but did it show how she managed to do this NO. 

Of course its possible.  My terriers did this at 8 weeks and quite frankly, I'm never going to win any prizes from dog training - unless it's for the worst one.

no no no you have missed my point, of course you can train puppies with hand signals, I do it in class my self, I meant you cant do it with one take, it take practice, that it was I meant, i.e start with a lure etc then the lure becomes hand signal.  You cant just show a puppy a hand signal and expect it to perform.  Sorry didnt explain myself properly.  And for the record I had my dobe puppy doing sits and downs by 6-7 weeks. :-)

I meant you cant do it with one take, it take practice, that it was I meant, i.e start with a lure etc then the lure becomes hand signal. 

Sorry, I'm really not disagreeing with you for the sake of it but in my experience it is something they can learn in one take.  And as I said before, I'm rubbish at training.

I must disagree with you regarding a puppy being taught to sit at 8 weeks.  My puppy GSD could sit at 8 weeks with a hand signal also in the down with a hand signal. Albeit the hand held a treat...but it works every time

I totally agree with JG - I work in the media industry and I know that no TV programme would be made along these lines unless Stilwell was made out to be successful.  Honestly, can you imagine how bad it would look for her career and her professional image if she failed on a few of these cases??  It's probably even in her contract that she has to appear to be successful, and with editing and recutting and even by what version of the truth is told us by the commentary it is very easy to make her appear successful in any case study.

Possitive training works very effectively..... but like any kind o dog training you do need to understand the method and how it works and what you need to do to achieve results.

I'd be more than happy to compete my two posstively trained pups against old school pups...at training class already they have over taken dogs three times their age with the advantage they do not cower submisevely but stand tall with happy mischievious faces.

The choke chained shouted at dogs at clubs I go to ar not so good at their stays and creep submisevely towards their owners...also they show more fear agression and dog aression...which from my limited years of  observatons I can only put down to hards dominance based training methods.

However... the methods must match the trainer...no good using possitive methods when  person is not understanding what it involves because it is not a quik fix...and it is shame more clubs do not teach possitive... hen people will understand how to use this .....here too many training clubs are all fists down puppy mouths, choke chains, in their face shouting chucking shake cans, water guns... dominate and take obedeance from the dog... rather thanm earn it... it is a shame. Too many people think they are so big and tough being able to scare a wee dog into submission.

Nothing new here seems very familar and like good old Barbara Woodhouse, without the tweed skirts.

Victoria Stilwells first series WAS awful and i complained loudly about it as did a lot of other people.

Funnily enough her second series has seen a VAST improvement, i havent seen any (although i did miss teh first two shows) sound aversion and very little dominance and NO 'you must eat a biscuit before you feed your dog' rubbish at all.

Dog Borstal is appalling and im afraid youd have to crawl over my dead body and GET my dogs before id allow any of the trainers on it anywhere near them!

Em

Hi Tohme,
I myself have never had to use dog training or dog borstal. But! I have been to ring craft.
A lot of the dogs at Dog Borstal, its there last chance of staying with there owners or
being PTS. None of us like to think that sometimes we fail. There are dogs in the report that are
Killers of other animals. Attackers of people, babys in prams. NO Borstal or Boot Camp is good for dogs or people, but, it may be their last chance. Every think has it's place.
In the report, Debbie says some are to mollycoddled. The dogs bully the owners.
It's like being a parent, the child is not the boss neither are the dogs.
Her price is up front. She has many success stories, and I supose many failers.
Not every dog can be saved. But! it may be worth asking if you had a problem.
Regards
Denese

Guys, I think Dimple is probably Dennis back again - all the usual arguments, ust using this thread to put them in a slightly different way, what do you think?  :D

Lindsay
x

Great minds, Lindsay! ;) :D

;)

Nothing gets past us :D

Lindsay
x

Me too :D

Dog Borstal is simply the worst dog training programme to be shown on tv lately - IMO of course but, really!

The weim was almost certainly choked by the trainer on purpose. The dog would not have bitten (we don't know if he drew blood or not even) if the training had been better. The Gsd, Rio, was not disobedient but highly stressed out and when told to "Sit, Sit" , went down as he didnt understand the words, only that he Sat and then Downed. The female trainer had no idea what "desensitisation" was and called dogs "dominant"when they clearly were not. I was pretty much apopleptic to see the appalling standards of frankly totally crap training. Rob was the best, he is also from an organisation I recommend, but I also know that not all of the members of that organisation are at all happy with what was shown. Far from it.

I think we should bring back Ian Dunbar - no nonsense but totally brilliant, a true dog lover and with so much training knowledge he could beat the DB crowd into the ground!

Dimple (!) as for Victoria Stilwell, many of us who did berate her methods now give her credit where it's due as she is now using correct learning theory and putting it into practice very well - good for her !!

Lindsay
x

i was dicussing all these programs with some friends and my opinion is that they should start a program which has, say 15 dogs of all ages (starting from puppies) and of all different levels (ie puppy, good dogs but in need of some simple training and then the problem dogs). i beleive that if you had this program with the same dogs for say 7 weeks instead of different ones each week you would get more out of it.

i also think that there should be the long term desensitisation during this to dogs where they start off with the, say dog aggressive ones week one and two teaching watch me, sit, downs heel etc and then move on to controling these dogs with stooge dogs around.
basically the dogs with probelems always need training to start to help them deal with the stressful situation they find them selves in. this could be shown very easily within 7 weeks.
the puppies can be showing how to prevent problems - how we really need to educate the puplic rather than showing  them what to do once they have a problem
and the general dogs (older than pups but not problems) could be taught tricks and other obeidience so that people know how to stimulate their dogs minds and not just take them for a walk.
then at the end possibly show how the dogs are say 6months later.

just my thoughts
Anna

What about Uncle Matty?

He shows basic training for different ages and leved of dogs and different owners,,,but all responsible normal people.

He uses correction but also a ballanced  mix of methods and a lot of praise and voice tone.  Not seen them for a while but from memory his training shows were very good and explained a lot of basics...such as why two dogs on tight leads might play up because tight leads create tension and  prevent communication and all sorts.... puppy socialisation, and backyard agility! that was a great concept.... it is a shame tht's not done in the UK. Also the good citizen training... alltogether a great show..I think it was Uncle Matty but anyway... whatever it was good if not Uncle Matty I'm certain it was some American dog training show I'm thinking of.

I ever watch the other type of shows...the encourage folk to neglect their dog so they can become a TV celeb... just not my cup of tea.

Dimple (!) as for Victoria Stilwell, many of us who did berate her methods now give her credit where it's due as she is now using correct learning theory and putting it into practice very well - good for her !!

Yes I actually cheered when she did the Giant Schnauzer and had the owner walk it around off lead in the kitchen with a treat getting it to follow and watch. :)

I did not say large numbers of people lileth, I said "many pet owners" were turning in favour, that is many on these internet forums which in fact dont mount to many dog owners of the dog owning popuation.
All the dog owners were in an awfull state and of course the dogs followed suit, personaly if that weim had gone for me like that it would have to go to rescue id be to scared to live with it, one snap would be enough, that was a big dog. Apart from that people are turning to trainers like these, they have woken up to the fact that harsh physical punishments seem quite normal to those who claim no punsihments.
Almost all the dogs with recal problems all over boards are starved of breakfast or some meal they come baclk only to ease the hunger pains and this goes on for hours. I would like to hear the name of a vet who supports excersise on a full stiomach or giveing a dog its meal on excersise, thats not training.
On top of that many give cheese, thats just fat, heavens knows what long term problems these rubbish diets will cause. No vet would recomend cheese or hardly any dairy prodiucts let alone punish the dog by giveing it hunger pains for prolongued periods because it will not recall, at least a jerk on a choke chain is over fast, maybe why the more conscious of APDT are turning to choke chains, people are wiseing up to these things.

Also the physical punishments involved in starve and train methods, common throughout APDT training are very dangerous.

PLEASE, please, if you have been persuaded to punish starve to get a recall by these people, please read the dangers they have put you and your dog in. Some reward I must say, remember they are only interested your money, obviously not your dogs life.

http://www.marvistavet.com/html/bloat.html

Hmm.

Think you've been reading advice on a very different board than this Dimple....

Starving your dog involves keeping it without food for a LONG time. I hardly think organising training to happen before a meal time counts as starving!

That webpage did not as far as i could see, suggest that feeding small tasty titbits during training would cause bloat, and i find it very hard to believe anyone would train their dog by giving it hefty lumps of meat as a reward!

Em

Dearie me! So allowing a dog a gap between meals means it's being starved? That they should be continuously eating? Well I never - what will they think up next? :rolleyes:

ROFL Jg, i just thought that after i posted.... ill make sure my dogs have a constant supply of food, because obviously i hadnt realised a dog can be dangerously starved in 8 hours or so!

Em

And then ALL our dogs will be like the 92 kg Rottie!

Yes some are recomending bones as well as hefty lumps of meat, check through peoples past posts you'll find them.

http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/cgi-bin/board/topic_show.pl?tid=70067

ROFL! Did you not read the bit about chopping them up into small pieces! :D

ROFL did you read all this went on for 2 years, its not the recal that gets better, dogs are quieter at around two and, ROFL, did you also read this below
http://www.marvistavet.com/html/bloat.html

Yes of course - and it doesn't say don't give food treats. :rolleyes: In fact it advises giving two or more meals a day, so giving titbits during training is actually beneficial.

Nearly midnight and hamsters are nocturnal and come out to run in their wheels. :D Goodnight, I'm off to bed myself now!

*makes good use of teh ignore option*

Em

no no no you have missed my point, of course you can train puppies with hand signals, I do it in class my self, I meant you cant do it with one take, it take practice, that it was I meant, i.e start with a lure etc then the lure becomes hand signal.  You cant just show a puppy a hand signal and expect it to respond.  Sorry didnt explain myself properly.  And for the record I had my dobe puppy doing sits and downs by 6-7 weeks. :-)

At the end of the day, all these programmes are but an entertaining microcosm. Because the producers are looking to reflect extremes in order to provide the entertainment value and viewer figures! Victoria Stilwell's methods do seem to have improved no end - far less castration and far fewer aversive measures - but neither programme reflects the reality of dog ownership for the majority of people who own dogs! However, what I do fear is that people may well look at some of these more extreme examples of behaviour and start assuming that their dog fits the bill. Thus they assume it will need some sort of Dog Borstal experience which, from the sounds of it, is attempting to move dog training firmly back into the bad old days of negative methods and outdated theories.

My point denese is that some dogs end up being PTS precisely due to what handling as shown in programmes such as dog borstal DO to some dogs.

And I do not remember any of the dogs in this programme being on there because they attacked babies in prams, or perhaps I missed that vital part of the series?

I doubt very much that a dog that attacked a baby in a pram would remain alive long enough to reach even Dog Borstal! :rolleyes:

I havent yet seen ONE dog on Dog Borstal that i would class as having a SERIOUS problem.

Just dogs whose owners are ignorant to dog behaviour and a dogs needs.

They say that the dogs on that program were using Dog Borstal as a 'last resort'... which sounds really serious, but if someone has never been shown how to train a dog, and how to LIVE with a dog, then they may well THINK they need a serious 'last resort' when all they really need is to learn a little bit!

I, i guess like Tohme, know a great number of dogs who would if handled as dogs are shown being handled on DB, end up being PTS after seriously injuring their handlers.
I highly suspect at least two of my dogs would have your face off if you tried some of the techniques shown there, and the other two, youd never see them again, theyd hide from you forever more. None of my dogs are 'bad dogs' but two have terrier ancestry and are very much 'independant, save myself' type dogs, and the other two are very 'oh no thats so scary im going to run and run and run' type dogs.

Em

I've read some of the reports on Debbie's site re dogs that have been trained by her. One gsd apparently was a "prima donna" :rolleyes: who cried when she was slapped on the muzzle, and she went onto her back. That was supposed to be the dog being prima donna, and it seemed to happen on a regular basis from what was written. I'd say the dog was not being a prima donna and there were other reasons for what she did. I'd also be totally ashamed as an owner and trainer if a dog behaved like that through confusion or fear whilst i was around.

Why was the dog being slapped on the muzzle!?

It didn't say - sounded as if she was just being "naughty" in the owner's or trainer's opinion :rolleyes:
but i think it says a lot about how the dogs are trained.

She has a website.

No, dont tell me where it is, ill only get myself in trouble.

Em

Hi Tohme,
The report was in the Love it Maggy. 21st to 27th March.I am only quoting what it say's.
Buster a black mongrel, that was loved, and sounds a little bit spoilt, and in control,
my opionion!  Got very agressive at buses and used to chase them then jumped up at a babies
pram acting very agressive. He had to be trained with a doll, which he used to attack,
but after dog borstal, he is now contoled by a firm voice.
The people that tell of there cases, are successes case's and also photo'o of the dogs.
Lynn and Phill the owners of a  S.B.T. thought there dog was playing with a new toy in the garden,
to find it was next doors cat already torn to pieces, and still tossing it's limp body around the yard.
There is a photo of the dog with it's owners. They sent him to Dog Borstol.
I didn't see the T.V. program. But like people. there are some nasty people out there and nasty dogs.
If they can be trained, that has to be a positive, Action hasn't it.
Regards
Denese