I took Poj, 13 week old labrador puppy, to her first class last night which she enjoyed thoroughly - despit being 'loved' by a boy dog - fortunately spayed and fortunately not very competently.

The lady saw Poj chewing at me and said I shouldn't put up with it.  She suggested I try yipping or barking at Poj - I've tried this before and she just finds it terribly exciting and does it all the more, coupled with jumping up.  Then she said I could hold her mouth clmaped shut and say 'no'  So I've been trying this, but again she gets very excited, squirms around madly and tries to bite my hand as I'm moving it towards her mouth to clamp it.  She also suggested holding the scruff of her neck and pushing her gently down whilst saying 'no.'  ThisI've tried as well - but as soon as I let her go she jumps straight up to start biting again. She also suggested a water pistol and we haven't tried that yet as I haven't got one.

Does anyone else have experience of this way of stopping behaviour?  I will keep at it, but ti would be good to hear what other people think of her suggestions and their experiences of having used them themselves.

I've found with all of mine that any extreme reaction from me only winds them up further. ;) What I do is simply say "ah ah, no, gently" in a calm, quiet voice and gently remove my hand/trouser leg/whatever from the puppy's mouth and praise quietly when I've succeeded. You say she leaps up again when you let go of her scruff - I'd keep holding it while praising her calmly and soothingly - she should gradually start to respond to this then you can let her go. I've found the secret is to be calm but firm with the puppy; and the knowledge that they do grow out of it carries me through! :)

Sorry, but I personally don't see it as a problem at this age, I would never squirt a water pistol at a baby or make it a big issue, your pup needs to chew to loosen her baby teeth, she will chew anything that she can, all you have to do is make sure that appropriate things are put infront of her to chew, if she is in a training class with nothing infront of her to chew but you, that is why she is chewing you.

I would have one of her toys in my pocket for her to nibble on whilst you are there, she will outgrow this problem herself, I personally do not find it an issue and would never punish her for it.

I agree - this is normal puppy behaviour, Poj.

Would you squirt a toddler in the face because he or she likes to pick up stones and in fact experience the world through his or her mouth?  Puppies are the same.

This link has useful information about how to deal with puppy biting.  The most important thing is - puppy biting is GOOD because it is how puppies learn bite inhibition - this link will explain more: http://www.jersey.net/~mountaindog/berner1/bitestop.htm

I would be very concerned about your trainer's methods if she is giving you advice like this for something as innocent as puppy-biting!

Have a look at: www.puppyschool.co.uk or www.apdt.co.uk for a list of perhaps better classes you could take your puppy to!

if they are never allowed to mouth at all  can they learn bite inhibition properly? oops just noticed last post said same thing:rolleyes:

Whatever you decide to do Emma, consistency is the key.  You've listed several different things you've been told to try, and have tried, and it doesn't seem like you've done any one of them for a great period of time.  ;) 

When my dogs have chewed on me or nipped, I've found a quite 'eh eh, no bite' along with giving them something they ARE permitted to chew on, to work very well.  When mine are teething, I tend to keep several hand towels frozen, ready to pull out.  I wet them, wring them (leaving them in the wrung position) and stick them in the freezer.  I've also done this with rope toys (just soaking and putting in the freezer).  When they bite, they get the 'eh-eh' and a frozen chewie.  :)

I'm going to stick with holding her scruff and pushing her head down gently while saying 'no.' As she goes crazy at anything else and makes me feel very miserable.  I haven't tried the frozen towel idea - this sounds good for her.

I got this ladies details from the web-site a poster higher up said - the class is kennel club registered and we're working towards the good citizenship awards so it seems like it should be a good class. 

I agree that I dont' want to be aggresive to her and squirting with water sounded pretty harsh to me too.  Thanks for your help everyone, I truly appreciate it.

with any class you go to , be it dog training, yoga, art etc etc, not everything that the tutor says has to be taken as gospel, if you think something she says isnt right for you then dont do it. i am a teacher  of adults and i dont expect  my students to do exactly as i say, they modify it for their own purposes. eventually your pup will grow out of chewing you if she has other things to chew. ah happy days.....

I'm a teacher too and I agree that not everything I say I expect my students to take exactly at face value.  It's just I so badly want to get it right and not screw the poor little thing up somehow that I feel insecure about my own feelings - that's why it's nice to be able to come and check on this board.  Normally the decisions I make are for me or for some other human that can speak and articulate what they think of it - making decisions for a dog is a big deal to me, hope this makes sense.

Speaking from fairly recent experience, I found any sort of physical contact made a bitey pup all the more excited and thus all the more bitey! Removal of hands altogether, accompanied with an "ah-ah" and distraction with something acceptable worked best but be prepared for it to take a while so don't give up hope! There is a need for them to learn bite inhibition (the link provided offers some very good tips) and while I agree that being chewed to pieces is an absolute pain (quite literally), being told you "shouldn't put up with it" strikes me as a rather negative comment given that her recommended way of dealing with the biting is scruffing or spraying with a water pistol.

Thank you Roz.  I did feel quite 'told off' for something I thought was to be expected.  I always pull her away when she hurts or gets too rough as I felt some kind of chewing was inevitable.  She told someone else with a labrador off for it as well :-(

I found the class quite funny.  We had to walk our dogs a short way outside, crossing two pedestrian crossings.  We were told to get our dogs to sit at the lights.  I was quite chuffed that Poj did sit, but as she hasn't learnt to sit and stay I got another ticking off for not keeping her sat the whole time the lights took to change.  So there were a load of puppy owners all dementedly saying 'sit sit sit sit sit' at a herd of puppies.  I got the giggles, and a stern look.  I did enjoy to class but I did think that the ladies in charge too it extremely seriously.  maybe I'm too disobedient and need to go to training myself :rolleyes:

Hi - You should never ask a dog to do a stay for longer than it is capable of, because you are only tempting fate and encouraging the dog to move and "fail" the stay.  A stay is a stay, whether you are right next to the dog or miles away from it.  In fact, when training stays you should begin by training duration, which means begin by training the amount of time the dog will sit at your side for, before you begin to try to leave the dog - but you need to slowly increase that duration, not ask during one of the first ever classes for a bunch of puppies to stay together, outside, in a distracting environment, for a lengthy period of time.

The fact that you mention everyone needing to say "sit, sit sit" to their puppies is also a warning signal - it suggests that the puppies actually were moving out of their stays and therefore that the stays were too long for them.  Besides the fact that you should only ever give a command once, not several times (unless you want to give it several times for the rest of your life).

IMO small puppies in a group together, and out in public, are not ready to be doing stays for as long as it takes traffic lights to change and that is only setting them up to fail - it is allowing them to learn that it is possible and "ok" to move before you release them, which is the opposite of what stay training is about.

There is no nation-wide organisation which can guarantee that all instructors have a knowledge of learning theory, which is what I'm talking about here.  The APDT is the best thing we have, but there are still many organisations which slip through. 

I would suggest that you buy a book called The Culture Clash by Jean Donaldson.  This explains learning theory in a readable way and will help you learn how to train your dog in many ways.  It is possible, if you have a good knowledge of learning theory yourself, to use it within the classes even when the instructors may not be telling you how to do that.  Only saying sit once, for example.  Or, when doing the stays at the traffic lights - if I had found myself in that situation, I would have said Sit to the puppy, counted for maybe 1-3 seconds, then rewarded the puppy in the stay with a treat, before releasing verbally with "ok" - BEFORE the traffic lights changed and while everyone was supposed to be in a stay.  I would then have said "Sit" again, and repeated the whole process.  If the puppy didn't sit immediately, I would lure and reward as the bum went down.  To the trainer, who probably can't hear what I'm saying and can just see my puppy getting up after every 3 seconds, it will probably look like my puppy is breaking the stay as much as anyone else's is - but it wouldn't be - I would be deciding when the stay was over, not the puppy.  I would be building the foundations to gradually extend this period of time, and building success in my stays while everyone else around me was building failure.  So - if you have a basic knowledge of learning theory, it IS possible to use this within a class which doesn't foster it.

Training class doesn't need to be serious and straight, but it's important that the rules are consistent and that the tasks given to the dog are manageable and possible - even if you're going to be light-hearted about it, there are still right ways and wrong ways to do things - ways which will help your dog to learn and ways which will hinder learning. 

i agree with what everyone else has said about saying 'ah ah' and providing your pup with something more appropriate to chew.
I wouldnt recommend a physical approach by scruffing your dog, depending on your dogs personality, this may cause mistrust and you may hurt your dog.

Its natural for your dog to chew, and as others have said it teaches them bite inhibition.
your dog needs to learn that it is not acceptable to bite you, but you need to show her what is.  Personally i wouldnt do this through force. If you dont teach your dog this now, what will you do when she is 7 months old and much stronger, i would hope you wouldnt scruff your dog then.

just my opinion

>I did enjoy to class but I did think that the ladies in charge too it extremely seriously.  maybe I'm too disobedient and need to go to training myself

:D :D
I think you've hit the nail on the head there. About taking things too seriously, that is. Only I think I would have been helpless with laughter myself and probably expelled on the spot!

i think the idea of taking a load of puppies out onto a road together to practise crosssing the road is a little bit silly? surely one at a time would have been better. i know what you mean about wanting to get it right because its your dog and not you, I came over very insecure in the early days, just trust your instincts and the advice of the experienced people on here(not me!) whose opinions and practices you feel are right in your heart.

i agree with the others she is so young, just trying everything out. my pup never used to  bit me (because i used to trade my hand for a soft toy) but my partner (who lies around on the floor) used to get bitten daily, tryed barking, squeeking etc etc that didnt work. but what did, if he was lying on the floor and she started digging him and bitting him i used to make him stand up and walk away from her..she soon stopped. it bores them. she rols around on the floor with him but no teeth marks anymore!!!

I have read through this thread and quite honestly I would be tempted to find another class.  Just because a club is KC registered is no guarantee of quality nor does it measure the competence or otherwise of the "trainer".

Your puppy is 13 weeks old, and it certainly should NOT be asked to maintain a sit for more than a few seconds at most.  The back muscles in puppies are very weak and I have to say that I get very concerned at some classes I have seen where owners are expected to place their immature puppies in a sit, on a slippery floor and, in your case, with loads of distractions.

Repetition of a command only teaches the dog to ignore the first half a dozen or so.

Chewing is as necessary to puppies as breathing, eating and defecating.  If you wish to stop inappropriate chewing you cannot leave a vacuum, give the dog something is IS allowed to chew.

Yipping or barking at your dog, will only either interrupt the behaviour momentarily and/or wind the dog up.

As for clamping the dog's mouth shut, and or pushing the dog down this may make your dog handshy, increase the likelihood of avoidance or worse, real biting, not to mention that the effect of pushing a dog down will make it resist and push up.  Of course you could also try to punish it with a water pistol but will any of these methods teach the dog anything except how to avoid you?  Also being a labrador it may well enjoy the water pistol..................

If the dog is mouthing your hands, just remove any verbal, eye and physical contact and praise when the dog is not behaving in an inappropriate manner. Relax, dogs chew, like babies, we do not punish babies when they are teething, we give them teething rings, the same applies to puppies.

Totally agree with Tohme.

Thank you both - I had been trying what the trainer said, but it just excites Poj and I also feel it's just teaching her to mistrust me.  I find just having something I can give her to put in her mouth usually works and if she gets too bad I put her in another room to calm down.  My elderly neighbour walks her during the day and finds it hard work with Poj always wanting to chew and bite so she's been trailing Poj's rope toy behind her so Poj can bite at that - I'm sure this isn't ideal but I just want my neighbour not to find walking Poj stressful. 

On the positive side she seems to be getting closer to being toilet trained.  We've had a succession of about 5 dry nights and only the occasional wee in the house during the day - and usually because I should have taken her out and just missed it!  Also she definitely responds to the word I use to wee/poo as she's starting faking a wee to get the treat as soon as I say the word!  I kind of admire her for this :rolleyes:

Emma - in my view this woman should not be taking dog training classes - she does not appear to have a clue about the reality of dog behaviour and is going to cause your pups problems and it will probably also be causing a breakdown of yours and the pup's relationship.   For the first few weeks that a pup is with you it is all about relationship building not destruction.  Walk out and find a knowledgeable trainer.

Wendy

I would love to do this but there just isn't one in the area.  I live 17 miles north of Exeter and I'd have to travel an hour each way for the next nearest one.  I'd like to give tonight another chance to see how it goes.  After all I can always pick and choose the advice I want to take from her.  I think it's important that Poj have the opportunity to socialise with other dogs which is something I can't give her much off on my own.

Have you looked here for a class? : www.puppyschool.co.uk

I've looked everywhere, including that link - thanks for sending it.  A lot of dogs round here are used for gundog work so most classes take puppies from 6 months to do gundog training.  I want a puppy class for basic training and right now.  I'm going again tonight, I'll let you all know how it went.

Well, I went to the training class last night.  I was told again I should be using a water pistol to squirt Poj in the face.  Also she criticised my choice of snack and took some cheese off someone else to feed to Poj.  She also said that next week we're doing a sponsored dog walk and that everyone should come - the walk is three miles long!! (all the pups are under four months)  I walked out before the end and won't be going again.

I'd like to get a book on clicker training and try to do that myself as there really aren't any other classes I can take her too.  I have a few friends who use clickers and swear by them.  I'd love book recommendations if anyone can make one?

Well done for walking out Emma. The very idea of taking all these pups on a compulsory three mile walk shows a dangerous level of ignorance. Plus who needs the constant criticism? Especially from what sounds like such a highly unreliable source!!!

Thanks Roz, I was very disappointed as I'd been so looking forward to the classes.  Ultimatrly I felt uncomfortable with everything about the class.  Fingers crossed for clicker training

I definitely wouldn't worry about missing out on any training by not being at this class - however, I would worry about missing out on socialisation.  Make sure your pup gets to play with other pups in a controlled way - short (3-5mins) play sessions are better than long ones because it helps prevent play getting too rough if you keep it short.

On the subject of books - I highly recommend The Culture Clash by Jean Donaldson, which has information on all kinds of things and an introduction to learning theory.  At the back it has specific exercises using clicker training and a detailed and progressive way to move through them.  I think it's a bit of a Bible. 

I would also recommend Click for Joy by Melissa C Alexander.

Both of these are available from Amazon.

On the subject of classes - have you also looked at these links:

http://www.dogclub.co.uk/regions/index.php
http://www.apdt.co.uk
http://www.clickerteachers.net/