Sorry to flounce off a week or so back. It takes a while to get to grips with a mixed forum like this, coming from breed specific ones, with folks genuinely asking because they'd like to learn in 99% of the cases instead of about 50%, if you agree with what they thought in the first place ;-)

Reading several threads I thought I'd say that breeding has come a long way in the last 60 years or so. One thread asks "why not just leave dogs to mate naturally - folks always DID in the past...?" Another thread talks about how often one changes bedding in the whelping box - some ask as such "why change it if its not dirty, in the wild the pups would be in the same dirty den for 8 weeks or more!?" Other threads speak of feeding the in whelp bitch 'puppy food' and that she would be better on her normal diet and not interferring in that kind of a way...

Its very interesting because as a person i'm not one for liking interference. These days its true, we hand assist our stud dogs (guide them in), hold bitches, use AI, feed supplements, take temperatures of immenently whelping bitches, sit with them, break sacks, put pups on teats, rotate pups, rarely cull, work our backsides off to save pups that would die without help, decide when to wean, keep mum away to our convenience during weaning for *her sake* etc etc etc, on it goes.

Why do we assist in matings? Because we have progressed to know that *maybe* our presence won't be required, BUT, because we have domesticated dogs and taken away most of their natural instinct, we probably WILL be needed.

Bitches that have come to my stud dogs through the years, despite being entirely ready for mating physcially, even blood tested ready, will hide behind their owners legs and snap at the approaching dog. They can't flirt, they don't know how. They think they can't take the dogs weight and sit or slide underneath him making it impossible for him to brace against her hind legs and judge how close he should be to penetrate her deeply enough to give her a chance to tie effectively.

Then we have pregnancy. Why feed puppy food? Why give Raspberry Leaf? Why give folic acid? We didn't in the past. Why take temperatures? Why sit with a bitch rather than wake up to a kennel or kitchen full of happy healthy sucking puppies? She is a dog isn't she? She should KNOW how to whelp. Why? Because we have domesticated dogs. They depend on us. We have TAUGHT them, imprinted them, to rely on us. They can't not.

Equally, to a certain extent I think we do live with a certain level of guilt as breeders. Its probably subconcious but there all the same. WE pick to breed, when to breed, who to breed to, where to mate, when to mate, where to whelp, where to raise the whelps, when not to cull, when to help a puppy that mum gave up as dead, when to wean, when to move mum away from them, when to sell them, when to mate again.........

So therefore we tend to do everything we possibly can to make this decision WE have made for the bitch as easy and comfortable and as physcially untaxing as science and money can possibly make it.

We DON'T live 60 years ago. If we did we WOULD let our dogs out in the street and let her be gang raped by 8 dogs, (I've seen this happen and its horrific) whoever can fight to get inside her first. We would see our bitch start to pant, put down an exta bowl of water and a blanket, go to bed and get up and hope we had live puppies. We would 'bucket' pups that were mismarked, weak or just the wrong darn colour for our liking.... but we don't anymore.

Possibly, possibly its hard to say what is better sometimes when you see the lengths some go in the opposite direction to the above. BUT the thing you CAN say is that they do believe it to be in their bitches best interests.

We CANNOT leave domesticated dogs to natural devices. They are not wolves anymore, they are darn nearly people, sorry to say, in many cases. The amount of people who come for stud who are sensible intelligent people but who fully believe we are going to turn two dogs in the garden and have a cup of coffee whilst they flirt, flick one anothers ears then quietly 'make love', tie discretely, stand quietly and then part and exchange mobile phone numbers is quite amazing!

Happy HAPPY, to hear thoughts for or against not leaving nature to take its course anymore.

Di

>"why change it if its not dirty, in the wild the pups would be in the same dirty den for 8 weeks or more!?"

Just to clear up a slight exageration :) Nobody said for 8 weeks or more but the first couple of weeks until the young were on solids.  Weaning makes all the difference as the OP has since learned ;)
A lot of your points are extremely valid so you probably don't need to throw in exagerations :)

Much appreciated 'correction' Isabel. I was speaking generally rather than copying and pasting verbatim from threads, just touching on the general subjects raised.
If i'd wanted to be absolutely specific i'd have replied in those threads.

Di

Di,
Welcome back. :)
Lea :)

Very refreshing post wylanbriar

Excellent post.
Would just add that we would not find the survival rate of dogs left to natural devices at all acceptable. In addition to puppies, bitches do die whelping. Many more would die if we were not there,  sometimes just a small intervention can make the difference between life and death.

Thank you - I agree on the mortality rates strongly. Judging by discussions with old school breeders from the 30's and 40's they too fell into groups. Those who did do everything to save their pups and those who let the bitch whelp in a kennel and shrugged at any that didn't make it as 'not meant to be....' Its so rarely like that now but sometimes we do forget there were *some* back then even who did all they couldtoo -even if 'all they could' was more limited thannow with Nutridrops, heat pads, adrenaline injections bitch milk supplements and so on.... (Mind you I remember my grandmother gave goats milk to weak whelps - now there is a big debate about the worth of this, but back then seemed to bring them round a treat - but that could be me with my 'rose glasses for the past' on....)

Di

I find it hard to believe what you have said about dogs flirting, dont get me wrong, i feel you bring excellent topics to debate but dogs maybe be domesticated to rely on a human for food, although instinct in dogs is very much still intact and can never ever be domisticated like hunting a fast object or doing courtship before a mating these details can never be domisticated only learned from a young age eg like a stud dog allowing a person to put is tackle in the right place, it's only learned it isn't instinct at all.  Years ago when i was younger i witnessed these gang rapes, it weren't pedigree dogs though, it was some persons mongrel who was a street dog and the owner weren't educated enough to bring her in when she was in season, so this type of thing happened but it was only the dominant dog who was fit and healthy who got to mate this poor girl.  Bitches are just as bad as males and will do anything to reproduce just as males will and this can never be domesticated only controlled so she doesn't escape or the dog down the way doesn't enter your property and mount your bitch with supervision we've stopped unwanted litters threw control and supervision of the female when she's in season.

Lovely to see you back here Di!

Dear Susan,

Yes I appreciate its hard to believe, something so imprinted as reproductive courtship behaviour could be absent. I'm sure its NOT absent, just hidden. Squashed under layers of human interfeance and 'protection'. These bitches ae usually bitches, well almost ALWAYS bitches that are single dogs. They don't have the fun and games of the early days of a season in a mixed group of dogs until one has to seperate them. They don't understand the behaviour of the stud dog. He thunders up to them and starts whimpering, dancing up and down, doing handstands and begging her.... He jumps at her, gets off, licks her, stamps his feet some more, bows and dances again. This is the sort of behaviour single dogs just don't experience. Even homes with all bitches, they may flirt and mount one another in a long humping chain (hilarious to watch) but not the 'I mean business' of the experienced stud dog.

They panic. They snap at him and cringe away. They run if they can. If held at this point they would bite whoever held them in panic. BUT, of course, given a little time, somecareful restraining of the stud to her comfort point, then him coming in more slowly you can sometimes see them unfold like butterflies and even if the head is saying 'no' the body is uncurling the tail and flicking it over, the back end starts to brace itself a little more and she starts to mutter to herself rather than actually growl.

BUT for agoodly time, and sometimes to start with again when they come back for their second mating they repeat the terrified, overwhelmed, 'save me mummy' behaviour...

Then you get the girls who live with a great pack of mixed sex dogs in a breeders house who know just what its all about even if they haven't actually BEEN mated before. They strut into the middle of the garage, brace themselves, hoick their tail over and scream 'take me big boyyyyyyy!!!!'

Grin...
Di

>They strut into the middle of the garage, brace themselves, hoick their tail over and scream 'take me big boyyyyyyy!!!!'

You've met my Clover, then?! :D

But even so, she and the stud dog had hands on their collars to make sure nothing unexpected happened. :)

Oh absolutely. To precious not to keep a watchful eye and close hand even on happy couples ;-) The wine and roses bitches as I call them. The dagger and hellfire bitches need less of a watchful eye and more of a series of armour, pulleys and lasso's! ;-)

Then you get the experienced, well socialised bitch who just HATES it for sake of hating it (and theres a fair bit to hate about it whenyou happento be a bitch - grin) and has worked every trick in the book NOT to be mated.

Then you get the tall ones, the short ones, the wigglers, the growlers, the ones who simply will NOT tie however long you hold the dog on for, the ones who want chocolates, several bottles of good champagne and James Blunt playing in the background... etc. I'll stop now ;-)

But just saying that natural devices is just not the order of the day any more for SO many reasons... in so many parts of dog breeding. Not because we are interferring for the sake of it 9except maybe a littleout of guilt as I mentioned), but because the goalposts are changed dramatically from 60/70 more years ago.

Di

Lol at your description!

I've never had a bitch before, and my pup had her first season last month. Perhaps because she was used to being with my boy, who is entire, she was the most outrageous flirt! She was doing very dirty dancing and I swear if we'd set up a pole she'd have danced round it.<G> She didn't let him get really close though. On the evening of day 8, they were actually canoodling and nuzzling each other in a most endearing way, then on the morning of day 9 she stood still and didn't tell him to **** off when he tried to mount her. He was sent to Coventry then (well, Solihull, actually!) for the duration.

I wonder if it might be because they're not used to entire males that they don't flirt?

This may be so, certainly it isn't to do with Libido, as my Jozi is Randy as hell, but she wants to be the humper not humpee

my vizsla bitch is really scared of dogs which shows as aggression (not so much now as we have been desensitising her) but any entire male and she was a completely different dog - a complete flirt and not at all scared. really odd when i know what her behaviour is like usually but lovely that she can have some doggy friends.

she always has flirted even when not on heat and still does now even tho she is spayed

Think 'humanising'  affects a dog more than a bitch when it comes to mating.

A dog who has been treated very much as an only dog, and possibly trained to a very high level in a discipline, will find it difficult if not impossible to overcome his inhibitions when it comes to stud work. 

We had a very frustrating few days with a super working dog who came over from Southern Germany to one of our bitches.   He is 4 years old, and 'due to work committments' hadn't been used before.    His blood lines should be a real assett to the working dogs in our breed.

But there was our girl - standing like a good'un, and he took 4 days to begin to get the idea - looking to his boss for permission, and licking ears besotted with her head.   Any help was instantly rejected by him.

Difficult at the best of times, but when you consider the distance he had travelled through untreated snowy roads, and the mileage we put in getting help, it was a bit of a nightmare.

At least most bitches will normally stand if you've got the timing right, but it's difficult to explain what to do to a humanised dog!!!

Jo

Glad to see you came back Diane. Isn't the whole domestic dog situation artificial. They aren't wolves, they're domesticated and neotinized (if you have a Peter Pan breed especially ;-) ). As you say they don't live a natural wolf's life, they live as part of ours. I'm not a breeder but isn't it true that bitches are far more receptive to dogs that are part of their pack. Meeting some stud for the first time is a bit like going down to the local, and asking your friend to pick someone for you to go home with. Results would be unpredictable. So unless you have a pack living wild and selecting their own mates the dogs aren't mating naturally anyway.

Now that I think of it my friends would have probably picked a lot better than I did. :-D