Can I ask why it was decided that non KC registered Border Collies can not be called Border Collies but must be called a WSD..? A non registered Lab is a lab and the same with other breeds...so why is a Border Collie not a Border Collie?

My understanding is the WSD is the original working dog and the BC was bred from this..but the WSD is the one bred for what it can do... and the BC for what it looks like in the ring...but  farmers also breed from the KC registered BC so they can be bred for both....

My last dog was a from BC so a WDS and he was a great dog.... he was bright and sharp but died young...I find it irritating that even one year after his death people who mention him spell out to me he was a WSD and not a BC...but if you say WSD to anyone else they haven't a clue what you are on about because to the mass public he was a Border Collie!  To keep everyone happy we called him a farm collie or a sheep dog.

...soooooo....and in all...why is it such a big deal?   what is it all about?   Are these two  genuinely different breeds or is this just a snob value thing?

The border Collie was only recognised as a breed that could be shown under the auspices of the Knnel club very recently. 

I beleive the dogs that were eligible were the ones registered with the International Sheepdog society and had verifiable pedigrees.

Many farm bred collies were not registered at all, and some didn't even have pedigrees.

I suppose this was the reverse of the situation to many breeds which were developed from the beggining under the KC umbrella.

I suppose the difference in name was to distinguish the two registered and unregistered because unusually there were more of the latter than the former.

Can anyone remember when the Border collie was recognised fully by the KC, I have only been involved in dogs for just under 20 years and I think it was around that time, or that may be when they got CC's?????

According to this site the Border Collie became a KC recognised breed in 1976, and not given Championship status till 1982.

That site claims:

As a working dog he has been known in the Borders of England and Wales and Scotland since the 16th Century because of his superb agility and quickness over uneven terrain.  Smaller than mainland Europe herding dogs, he has never been required to guard flocks because of the early eradication of the wolf in England and so does not have the protective instincts of many of the members of the Pastoral Group.

...but in fact they are talking there about the WSD not the BC because this is going back well before the BC existed if the BC only became that under the ISDS.

I've read a few book  on them and have read a lot about the history of these dogs . Even the ISDS was not founded until 1906...and written pedegrees were historically not kept although farmers were very well aware of the pedegrees of their dogs... the idea of registering is relatively new.

If you look bacvk at painting we can recognise many breeds even though we are not looking at KC registered dogs.... but a Irish Woolfhound or a Lurcher or a Cavalier King Charles Spaniel are still recognised as those breeds.  We will also look at old photos and paintingfs of farm dogs working sheep and say they are Border Collies...yet in the dpg world they are not to be called that but must be called the  WSD.

Even non BC dog people are very harsh on those who call a WSD a BC.... this is why I am interested in knowing why. To me going on logic and based on what I have read I think they are very much one and the same.

>yet in the dpg world they are not to be called that but must be called the  WSD.

It's often used by the public as a generic term, like 'Jack Russell' is used to describe a type of terrier, not a breed. After all, we know how many people refer to 'golden' labradors when that colour doesn't exist!

ON this...I was wondering.... how many people tell another person what colour their dog is...?   I have heard peole do it...but I am confused as to why do they feel the need to.   IT is something a breeder might explain when they sell a pup and is useful to know if you show a dog...but for playing bal in the park I doubt it matters.

Same with the WSD... are people just rude and overly pedantic to insist on correcting owners who simplify matters by using the name BC because it is understood and the term WSD is not? I can not see why there is so much need by the dog people I meet to insist people do not call their BC type dogs a BC.

I suppose people say what colour their dog is in the same way as you say what breed or gender it is. It describes it a little better and is less impersonal. Otherwise you might just as well say 'dog'.

... you pointed out that people use the wrong colour description for their labs.... what I meant is who has the right to tell someone they have used the 'wrong' colour description for their dog?

If a person thinks their lab is golden rather then Yellow surely that is okay.... yet they would be corrected into saying 'yellow' by many people because the KC does not use the colour golden and not because the dog is not Golden.  Do you catch my drift...?  Only last week I heard a groomer laugh at a customer who had called their dog a golden lab.

A couple of weeks ago at training club someonewas harshly corrected by the trainer for refering to their own dog as a Border Collie...the trainer insisted they call it a WSD. The person said no it is a BC...and then someone else jumped in and said do you have papers...if not it is a BC.  I just can't see why it matters. To me it seems rude.  

Lack of such basic knowledge of one's own breed suggests a lot about the owner, I'm afraid. :)

Many people want a dog as a pet and actually havre no other interest in the breed. People with real breed interest are  very much a minority ..... most people just want a waggy companion...which is what pet dogs are for really.... so not to know much about a breed one owns isn't really a problem. 

..also some people have a personality that finds it hard to mislable... so would find it hard to call a golden dog yellow....  so it might not be ignorance but more a type of  truthfulness and so a literal description..

I do find it hard to call my dog a WSD when I know 90% of people will ask me what is one of those.... but hard to call him a BC because a small % of people will jump on me for calling him that.  I tell most people he was a BC because that is by far the simplist option...and not because I don't fully appreciate he was oficially a WSD. It is just seems nuts to me that this problem exists.

I am interested to know why anyone would jump on you for calling him a Border collie as surely if he looks like his breed, unless you show them his papers or they know he wasn't registered on the breed register then how would they know. 

I am sure they still call a Labrador or a GSD no matter how poorly bred (oh no just opened a can of worms there too with GSD ) be it papered or not.

That's what I would have thought....I actually have a painmting of two Border Collies...or are they Working  Sheepdogs ...I have no way of knowing because it did not come with their papers!

...but Border Collie breeders and some other breed breeders and show people we've met get quite wound up and insist you do not call a non registered BC a BC because it is not a BC it is a WSD. ( and oud lad was a traditional well bred working stock...a superb agile high stamina quick and intelligent dog )

I've actually had a BC breeder act in alarmed shock when for ease of communication we refered to  him as a BC... so I guess it is more then just the oddd individual being rather silly.  Even my sister-in-law who's got into showing came down on us for alling him a BC... and said but you do realise he wasn't a BC but was a WSD... I really could have hit her cos the lad died before his 4th birthday and it is a big loss to me and yet  still people are stamping down on us for using the public friendly breed label 'Border Collie.'

I've not heard this rule apply to any other breed of dog.

IT actually put me off having a dog without propper papers because we were not permitted to freely refer to him as what he was accepted as being by the mass public.... and I think that is crazy...unless for some reason these are two distinctly different breeds.

Maybe unless there is no good reason to claim these are two distinctly seperate breeds the BC people could come to an agreement to respect the herritage of their breed and not slam down on people who refer to the wonderful working sheepdogs as Border Collies.

I have a friend who keeps sheep and has several 'working sheepdogs' - but none of them are pure 'Border Collies'. Some have Bearded Collie, some have whippet.

Any pics JG? Would be very interested

I'll see if I can catch him some time. The trouble is I usually only see him in the fields when I'm walking my dogs, and his and mine loathe and detest each other so we wave and I go in the opposite direction!

Thanks JG :D Don't worry if you can't manage though

I've actually had a BC breeder act in alarmed shock when for ease of communication we refered to  him as a BC... so I guess it is more then just the oddd individual being rather silly.  Even my sister-in-law who's got into showing came down on us for alling him a BC... and said but you do realise he wasn't a BC but was a WSD...

Well my best friend has bred and shown show BCs for many years (over 20), and she ALWAYS refers to anything collie-like at our pet training class as "a Border". :)

you are right it IS the simplist option. he IS a BC after all. ;)

Do you seriously mean that people will buy a pedigree dog and not even get a single book about the breed? Not even the 'pet-owner's guide to the xxx'? Most breeders I know give a copy of that in their puppy pack so that the new owner has no excuse not to learn the basics.

Most people know nothing about their dogs.... with Crufts increasing in profile this is slowly changing...but I really think many  people just think the dog completes the family so thinjk shall I get a Lab or a GR, or a GSD or a Staffie, and think through the common breeds... or now will think through the TV dogs too... they might even find a 'what breed is best for you' book with a tick list and so pick the Lab.  Also many just like to have a dog.... so a huge amount of pet dogs in my area  are rescues and not diresct from a breeder... the intendtion is to have a suitable  companion .... learninmg about breeds and about dogs might be saparked off buy that... but unlikely.

Lets face it...you can't go down to the park and taslk dogs with most dog owners...if you tried to they think you are a dog crazy geek.  People feel mad and obsessed  enough standing in the rain in all weathers meeting the needs of their dogs.... and even then how many dogs get taken out eaqch day in good weather! Not emough!  So only the most dedicated owners take them out in all weathers... but they are still mostly not all that interested in breeds.

I have to be really really careful if dogs comes up because although dog owners will sometimes mention the topic they don't want to talk about it for more then a few seconds...

....like this week someone who has a (big breed of dog) said her 6 month pup has HD... and it must be on the sires side as the breeder said it was not heard of in her line... ( now this pup has been running free off lead as soon as the jabs were completed.  It has poor recall and the last same breed  pup died at 2 having been hit bu a car when it went of playing with another dog and didn't respond to0 being called back )  Anyway... a great way to have another RTA and a great way to damage joints especially in a large breed like that...IMO...anyway....

....in the next breath she said she is getting another pup at Easter to breed from ... so this time I did but in and said and mentioned health checking the checks from the breeding lines and also the health checks before she breeds and breeding ages and finding good homes and so on and Ideally proving she has good breeding stock in shows or some field of work...and she said with this breed you don't have to do all that. She thinks that is just for my Aussies. I pointed pout all the reasons why I didn't want to breed from my pups and added that I also don't want a third dog so have no reaon to breed.  Anyway.. most people are like this...they breed for fun and that is the only criteria for doing it... and maybe the money too...who knows.  Sorry off topic but no people don't read about dogs. This is a lovely lady and reflects perfectly the way most people are about dogs...love them to bits but are not really interested in them as a topic.

lol...I'd read several books before even buying a goldfish. I have several pet books on breeds or species I bought and read and decided not for me. And when I've chosed an breed I can't read enough!

I just couldn't imagine being like that.  when I had a pet rabbit I got all the books, which is how I got into showing them, and going by train up and down the country, had a garden with 12 hutches and a breeding line of chocolate English.

When I was able to have a dog I approached things the same way.  I contacted the Kennel club, and then the breed clubs of the shortlisted breeds I had picked from a Good Dog encyclopaedia.

I probably have every breed book on my breed and have the National clubs journals going back to the 50's with almost a complete set from the mid 60's.

That was all before I even contemplated breeding from  my well bred bitch being held by the hand by her breeder and the owner of her sire.

I meet the odd owner like you describe, usually the fair weather walkers with the most common breeds, but by far more people who know a great deal about theri breeds.

>Lets face it...you can't go down to the park and taslk dogs with most dog owners

Really? In this neck of the woods people are only too happy to talk about their dog when you meet them out. :) That's always the very first topic of conversation when you meet someone new. How on earth would you strike up a conversation if you didn't talk about the one thing you know you have in common?

Really?  In this neck of the woods people are only too happy to talk about their dog when you meet them out.people will talk about their dogs .... but not as a norm talk dogs...topics about breeds or breed history or breed standards and so on.... which is what we were discussing...knowing breed standard...knowing the KC idea of the correct description of colours.  People can love dogs to bits without having any interest in the topic of dogs or breeds and so forth.

Again, really? I find people are keen to talk about how theirs differs from the ones they've seen on the TV, or "what was that breed that 'won Crufts'"; the conversation can go all over the place, but invariably dog-related. :)

Most people here talk about anything good on TV, TV  soaps, movies, fashion, kids, anything interesing in in their lives like moving house, work, gardening, cars, football, holidays, politoical topics, local shops, local schools, local people, concerns about people or dogs no ones seen for a while, and any dog incidents or sicknesses going round, incidents in the paper or on the news and anything at all..the list is endless...oh and of course there is always the weather! And how daft we are standing out in the rain taking about these things!

With Crufts it is a TV show so people do talk about that...those who've see n it. Last year people asked about my breed of dog because no one recognised what they were and they were delighted I got a new pup and they wanted to cheer me up about loosing my beloved BC ... and so I told them all about the breed and so all the local people knew more then they wanted to know about Aussies and so cellebrated to bits when Chance won and still congratulate me on picking a winning breed...and congratulate my merle dog for winning! lol!   But in a week or two the excitement of Crufts will wear off and until anytghing new comes onto TV about dog breeds it will not be a popular topic.

It is a shame but the internet is here to fill the gap. Same with any interest... you can find intersted people on the internet but not so easily in real life.

I will add I do prefer to spend my time with my dogs when we go out.... I like to play with them as that is mainly why I have them...so I can enjoy doing things with them and taking them places rsather than chatting about tv and the weather. Mine are young and need a lot of time input.

>I will add I do prefer to spend my time with my dogs when we go out....

Ah, that could be the difference. :) I have loads of interaction with the dogs at home. We go out to socialise. :)

Well...you come here and see if you can get people to talk about breeds and official dog related topics for more than one sentance and you won't get very far. People do not like that...they see it as too in depth and too  geek. People all went to school together and have kids in school together and they have a lot to talk about. I mix and talk to them.. but just not about official dog world stuff ... you would soon be avoided as a major bore of a geek if you always talked dog!

I also spend time with my dogs at home... but they go out to see different places and to play in bigger spaces and different environments. And to beat each other up in different environments. And to get filthy dirty in a way they just can't manage at home. Meeting people is nice but my priority is my dogs.

> you would soon be avoided as a major bore of a geek if you always talked dog!

And here you'd be avoided as a weirdo if you talked about football or TV programmes - unless they were dog-related, of course! :D :D

lol! Funny isnt it...out of interest  are you city folk or out in the sticks..?

Small village. :)

...ah....we are in a big city. :)

Two totally different worlds, eh? You can walk from one side of our village to the other in under 15 minutes. :)

wow! that is major small! lol!

I guess if I want to talk dogs I just need to bob down to a little villiage green somewhere! If you fancy talking football or East Enders please feel free to drop into a big city park.

At the last count there was a total population (including children) of under 3,000 ... and that's after about 50 new houses were built! It's the sort of place where if you've been living here for 20 years you're still an incomer!

here in my are a they think they are a villiage because a few 100 years ago my area was a big villiage ... so you get the benefits of the  villiage and the benefits of a city... In a typical week I can meet well over 100 new faces to chat to in a week so I don't always want to keep repeating conversations so I mix where I go. And there are about 50 to 100 frequent faces I try to keep up with each month.. and I find it hard to keep track of their lives and remember what is going on in all their lives...just not a talent of mine. But I can remember all about their dogs and know how old their dogs are and what dogs are sick and so on.  if I don't catch them in a month I try walking out at different times. The dog comunity here is very strong but full of people variety. I've ben here 10 years but still we are regarder as new...because most people are born and raised here..but thousands are new to the area like us so it's okay.

City :D

Well I talk the hind leg off a donkey and have fascinating canine conversatiosn with knowledgeable and not so knowledgeable dpog people.  I do often have people stop me to ask questions concerning their dogs as they seem to view me as some sort of doggy oracle.

Likewise - I sometimes think I'm considered to be a free vet! :D

I'm considered local dog expert because when people want to know something about dogs they ask me because they know I am quite deeply interested and involved in training . But any behaviour problems people track me down for advice...even people I've never met!  But I've only had dogs for 5 years so I  only have a short experience with three young dogs and book knowledge.

tara barks at me if i talk to long when im out! if that dosent work she starts leaping up at my face!!!! till i get the hint!

My BC did too. My Aussies gve that 'here we go again' look and just lay down and fall asleep.

Today I learned from a local lady all about the life story of a very local lad who's blind. A very intersting people story and very tragic but amazing. Some people are real heros. A rather long but  interesting conversation about what I now know to be a truly amazing guy.

Yep my lot lie down too, especially in the street when we get stopped by people who wnat to know all about my dogs.  Kids hate coming out with us as in good weather progress can be slow :D

Tenaj, my experience so far with the 'Golden Labrador' has been aimed at my Golden Retriever. That might be why people are quick to correct. It's not the color they get wrong, they think it's another breed. It happens to me all the time.

Helps to own a breed where there is only one accepted colour

"ON this...I was wondering.... how many people tell another person what colour their dog is...?   "

Anyone who owns an Irish Red & White Setter, Kerry Blue, Russian Black, GR, Soft-coated Wheaten, etc.<VBG>

but in fact they are talking there about the WSD not the BC because this is going back well before the BC existed if the BC only became that under the ISDS.

Er no the ISDS call the dogs they register Working Sheepdog(or Border Collie)

They are called the International Sheep Dog Society not the International Border Collie Society & if a dog can work it is a working sheepdog & not looked down on by ISDS people at all. They have a Register on Merit whereby an unregistered dog can be registered by proving itself in trialling if the owner has already run dogs at trials, or by work if the owner has not trialled. there are some excellent ROM dogs on the ISDS register

Have a look at their site

Er no the ISDS call the dogs they register Working Sheepdog(or Border Collie)
yes..or BC...so isn't that meaning they are called both...? I'd taken it that the ISDS used the term BC as well as the term WSD...?

ol... well...so far I am reading the replies but it is not getting any clearer!

The ISDS use the term "Working Sheepdog" the (or BorderCollie)is only on the registration certificates. It has always been this way as the ISDS do not have a different register for the coat types ie rough, smooth or bearded. They are all Working Sheepdogs

The prejudice is mainly from people who know nothing about WSD/BC dogs

The prejudice is mainly from people who know nothing about WSD/BC dogs

Actually...all the prejudice comes from dog show people and especially from Pedegree Border Collie breeders.  I find them very rude and offensive to disrespect the herriotage of their breed through such pedantic and rude behaviour.

...unless they can prove to me their BC is an entitely different breed.

I would like an answer to this mystery so the next time I can put these pedantic in their place. Even all the rescues will call one of these dogs a BC.  And farmers sell them as BC's. Even though one would list them as a WSD in competition. And if you put them down as WSD or BC on insurance forms you are charged pedegree rate even with no proof of pedegree...so it seems they are not regarded as cross breeds or mongrels....which again is confusing.

ctually...all the prejudice comes from dog show people and especially from Pedegree Border Collie breeders.

Hm doesn't mean they actually "know" anything about WSD/BCs other than KC bloodlines & shows. I've had a show BC breeder of many years standing tell me she preferred the foreign dogs(ie Australian(along with their Kelpie blood)& New Zealand  dogs)because they had no ISDS breeding !!!! She obviously didn't realise that they came from dogs sent out to Australia & NZ that were ISDS dogs I presume she thought the sprang from the earth when sheep were imported into Aus & NZ

There is no mystery the KC decided dogs from ISDS reg parents should be called BCs & those that weren't are WSD when they were on the WTO register & transferred all the BC's to the full register when they recognised the BC as a "Breed" Dogs from WSD reg with the KC & dogs from non ISDS parents are still WSD in the eyes of the KC

It's nothing to do with the ISDS or farmers The KC made the decision to make the divide. Like I said a dog registered as a WSD with the KC with no papers ccould pass the ISDS ROM requirements & get ISDS registered & in the eyes of the KC would then be a BC ! but it would still be the same dog !!!

They are not mongrels nor crossbreeds wunless they have been crossed with another breed then they would not be WSD or BCs