Received from Maria Cooper:

I'm informing you about the death or our 3 year old Golden Retriever after receiving his booster on Saturday 18th March. We were routinely called by our vet and as an ignorant pet owner thinking we were doing the best for Spangler , went along for his 'free health check & booster'!

By Sunday 19th March during the afternoon, he became extremely lethargic (not normal behaviour as he was very boisterous dog), he wouldn't eat or drink and I called the vet on Sunday evening, who advised as long as he wasn't vomiting, he would be OK and to take him along on the Monday morning.  Blood tests were taken.

Spangler was panting rapidly through Sunday night and we tried to make him as comfortable as possible.  Monday morning at the vets, he was examined thoroughly (we thought) given an antibiotic and also something to bring down his temperature which was quite high (I don't know exactly but about 105. something).  Spangler remained the same during Monday, and still not eating or drinking, I tried to give him water from a small spoon as he was dehydrating. Spangler continued to pant and not eat so Tuesday morning back to the vets - they administered another antibiotic and injection to bring down his temperature.

No improvement by Wednesday and we found blood on his bed, but couldn't find where it was coming from. I started to look on the internet about reactions in dogs and found that they are more common than is made public!  I telephoned Virbac  who manufacture or distribute the drug - Canigen DHppi & Canigen Lepto 2 who spoke with the vets; I think on Wednesday, so we took Spangler back to the vets and he was given an injection in his muscle rather than in his neck - so we foolishly thought it was something different.  Spangler seemed a little better after this and ate but we had to hand feed him small pieces of liver and chicken.   He also stopped panting.  The vet said the blood was probably from his bowel as he hadn't opened them and nothing much to worry about.   We were also given a syringe for water and food (which was helpful as he was very dehydrated).

Thursday, Spangler wasn't panting, but definelty not improving as he was still lying down all the time and wouldn't eat again, so back to the vet who gave him another  2 jabs and said his temperature was coming down slowly, so that it was an improvement and nothing to worry about as he could be much worse!!   His chest was quite sticky and I thought it was the electrolytes hydration powder (I apologise if this is not how it is spelt) that had been spilling down him when using the syringe.  Blood tests were taken again and showed that Spangler had not been incubating any virus before the vaccine and this pointed to it being the vaccine!   We knew this all along.  Why don't vets listen?

Friday, Spangler went back to the vets as still not eating and had another 2 jabs - the vet thought his stickiness was due to the electrolytes too,  the vet phoned on Friday afternoon as he had been speaking to Virbac who said to invoie them with all costs as they didn't really want to contact us directly (that is a surprise)!  Our vet also said he was going on holiday and he would make the other 2 vets in the practice aware of Spangler's condition so not to worry! Friday afternoon and early evening Spangler ate chicken breasts - about 4 so his appetite seemed to be returning and he was drinking water out of his bowl.

Friday late evening he started to pant again and I knew he couldn't be too hot as the vet had said his temperature was almost normal and we had the windows open and I was blowing him with cold air from the hairdryer, which he usually loved!  12.30 we tried to sleep but Spangler was still panting, when I turned on the bedroom light, to our horror, Spangler's chest had a gash around 3-4 inches long and was weeping, he had his back pressed hard against his bed and seemed to be in agony.  We phoned the vet, and I told them who it was and what it was about and he told me he didn't know anything about it and to bring Spangler to the surgery.   This we did, and he was examined and we were told he would need an operation, but he would have to do it in the morning.   He would insert a tube to drain anything that was there.  We brought Spangler back home with us for the rest of the night as we didn't want to leave him in an empty surgery.   Spangler was deteriorating rapidly and appeared to be the same as all the incidents I have read about on the website.   At this stage I knew in my heart we were not going to save Spangler.

Saturday morning we took him to the vet for his operation, and I asked the vet if it was life threatening - his answer was no, he didn't think so, and not to worry, the operation would last about 20- 30 minutes.  We had a telephone call from the vet and he said he'd put Spangler on a drip as he'd done blood tests and his Thryoid was suppressed (a classic symptom)  there was something wrong with his liver, (another symptom and something wrong with his blood (another symptom).   Approximately 2 hours later we had a call from the vet saying he was in mid-operation, and Spangler's skin was dying and couldn't be stitched back - it was creeping nephlytis?  He would have to undergo months of plastic surgery, might have to have his front leg amputated and that was the good news - this would only be possible if after being examined by experts in another 24 hours his blood and immune system could cope.

We had no alternative but to do the hardest thing I've had to do in my life and that was to put him to sleep.

We are extremely sad in the family, and I'm also very angry and I want answers.

Why wasn't Spangler given an antidote?

Why wasn't he referred to specialist vets?

Why didn't the vet offer antibody testing to see if he needed his booster?  (this is available and should be made known to pet owners)

Nothing I can do will bring Spangler back - but I will campaign for him!

MariaC

What a dreadful, dreadful experience for you and Spangler, and all because you thought you were doing the right thing for him. :(

Unfortunately you're certainly not the first and won't be the last to experience such a reaction.  I stopped vaccinating and started to use homoeopathic nosodes in 1996 because of the list of dogs having reactions to primary vaccinations and boosters in my grooming parlour and the research that I did following these losses.

Please make sure that your Vet completes an adverse reaction form to the manufacturer.

I have no answers for you but I send my sincere condolences. :(

How awful, I am another person who hasn't done boosters for around 15 years now, after losing many a Pomeranian after their primary vaccinations, some even dying at the vets

Don't know what to say except I certainly feel for the family.

Thank you for your reply and very kind words - it does help to hear what other pet owners are doing for vaccinations; and it isn't as uncommon as the vets tell us!  I feel the drug companies should offer blood testing for antibodies beforehand as a matter of course and also for vets to offer alternatives such as the homeopathic nosodes which you use!
Thanks again - Maria

It is not for the drug companies to offer blood testing any owner can choose to go that route and most vets, if not all, will do that for you.  Vets are scientists very few will offer homeopathic medicines and I don't personally believe anyone should insist that they offer it if they don't feel there is any evidence to support it but again nothing to stop you going elsewhere if you believe in that sort of thing yourself.

Isabel, you may not think the companies should offer blood tests for your own personal reasons - but there are a lot of pet owners out there, like myself, who just trust in the vets and so called drug companies; until that is something goes very wrong and we start to research.  I certainly didn't know I could 'go down that route' it never occurred to me! If the drug companies can offer vaccines surely they are smart enough to work with the vets to offer a blood test beforehand, after all, if they are seriously concerned about the health and safety of our pets they should be more pro-active.  Maybe they could also make it more expensive so increasing their profits - I'm amazed they haven't already thought of this one!  Drug companies are in it for the money and not for animal welfare!
Maria  

You missunderstand Maria, the blood tests are available, you will note other posters use them, it's just that it is not the drug companies that offer it nor is there any reason why it should be. 
The drug companies may be out to make a healthy profit, they have to remain viable and pay all their thousands of employees, but their contribution to the health and welfare of our animals is enormous.

I think Maria's point is that vets don't tell people who take their dogs for boosters, that there is an option to have them blood-tested/titre tested to see if they need vaccination.  They just tell them they need a jab.  Your average pet owner relies totally on the vet for information and advice concerning health so doesn't do any research... 

Maria, or anyone - if you give Thuja 30C after any vaccination, it will greatly reduce the chance of a reaction.  Yes, it is homeopathic and many people don't think it works - but it doesn't do any harm, so why not try it if you're going to vaccinate anyway?

As I said earlier, Vets are men (and women) of science.  I think it perfectly reasonable, therefore, that they offer the standard treatments/preventative measures indicated by the bulk of evidence if we started expecting them to offer every alternative down the scale where would it end, a trip to the Philipinnes for non opening surgery?

No, of course they shouldn't offer every alternative known to mankind, but if there is a reasonable body of people who think that titre testing is the way to go, and if they have the facilities to take a blood sample and send it off, then I think they should be offering it and telling people about that option.

How big do you think that "reasonable body" is? Bigger than the reasonable body that support herbal remedies, doubtfully bigger than the reasonable body that supports homeopathic remedies ;).  As I say you need to draw the line somewhere and providing the gold standard supported by the profession seems to me the only thing we can oblige our vets to do.

I disagree.  However you feel about herbal or homeopathic remedies, there is absolutely no (hard, scientific) evidence that they work (I'm not saying they don't work either, just that there is no evidence).

However, titre tests DO work, they ARE scientific and vets will accept that a dog does not need a vaccination if the titre test shows that.  You can't really lump together titre tests and herbal/homeopathic remedies - one IS scientifically supported, the other is not.  Given that it is an alternative to routine vaccinations, I don't think it would be asking too much for vets to inform owners of the option.

There would need to be scientific evidence that titre testing would demonstrate clearly that whatever level was achieved it would still be above the required level at the required interval eg 1 year, once taken beyond the recommended length of cover for a vaccination.  I have never seen any so yes I would lump it in with the others.

* I have never seen any so yes I would lump it in with the others.*

Thats a very scientific conclusion.

Titre testing IS a scientific method used in diagnostics & is actually used by DEFRA for the pet passport scheme.

Good enough for government to use but not for you it seems hmmmmmm

Of course it is a method of diagnostics and a research tool too but what we don't have evidence of, is its efficacy in predicting when a booster may be required.  As the body of evidence is currently held to be 3 years as a reasonable assurity, presuming you titre test on year three and confirm dog is still protected there is no data to assure that immunitity will not fall sometime before repeating the test in year 4. If there was it would constitute a body of evidence that immunity will last 4 years and the profession does not seem to have adopted that idea have they?
Anyhoo we have discussed this same point in previous posts which I think the reader will find in the link I gave previously so surely no need to go over it all over again :)

You said * you would lump it in with the others* because you`ve seen no evidence for it.

It is a scientific method of diagnostics that the government use for determining rabies antibodies, if its good enough for them, then it must be a good enough way for the general public to use. ;)

I will post again what just 1 of the manufacturers state

A duration of immunity of at least three years has been established for the canine distemper virus, canine adenovirus and canine parvovirus vaccine components.

Whatever words you wish to use Isabel, body of concensus, scientific evidence, constitute a body of whatever. The above is very very clear no matter what the vets in the UK care to say.

You can`t get more clear than from the horses mouth ;)

Yes it is a scientific method of diagnostics and yes there is now accepted evidence that vaccines will provide three years of cover but that has nothing to do with my point :)
I will try to explain it again ;)  Vaccines are not accepted to give cover for more than 3 years, hence that is the recommended regime, therefore although a titre test at year three can be fully expected to show adequate cover a test at four year may not, therefore, the immunitity will have fallen below full cover sometime during that year.  Please don't offer up pieces of, I know you find the term Maverick somehow insulting ;) so I shall use the term, "individual" research I am only interest in accepted bodies of evidence.
For what it is worth, if I had a fear of vaccines (you feel there must be a medical name for the condition ;)), this is the method I would choose as at least any loss of immunity could only amount to months, at most, provided titre testing was done annually after year 3, but clearly it is not method to offer assured life long immunity so I do not think it unreasonable for vets not to offer this unless requested by the owner that wishes to make that choice.

It`s perfectly clear what the manufacturers have to say about their vax & their duration of immunity, all in black & white too & thats the most important thing ;) :D

Yes, perfectly clear but I don't think anyone has denied it have they :) and what has that got to do with my point about using titres as an alternative to the recommendations

*There would need to be scientific evidence that titre testing would demonstrate clearly that whatever level was achieved it would still be above the required level at the required interval eg 1 year, once taken beyond the recommended length of cover for a vaccination.  I have never seen any so yes I would lump it in with the others. *

You said that in reply to 123, its your opinion that vets shouldn`t be offering titre testing & you clearly state you lump it with other alternatives because you haven`t seen any clear evidence............

Titre testing for rabies is mandatory for animal owners in the UK that want to use the pet passport sheme.

Its obviously demonstrated its scientific value enough for the UK government to insist on it. They UK government relysolely on the vax manufacturers data as to when the rabies booster vax is given, which is every 2 or 3yrs depending on which make is used. UK government is a very big body accepting manu`s data  and titre testing & they`re the same manu`s that make the other vax :D

I`m not going to explain myself anymore to you Isabel, it seems you misunderstand me very often & also appear to think I misunderstand you & we go around in circles getting nowhere  ;)

If anybody else doesn`t understand what I say tho I`m more than happy to try & explain :)

Please don't offer up pieces of, I know you find the term Maverick somehow insulting  so I shall use the term, "individual" research I am only interest in accepted bodies of evidence.

You might not be interested in hearing this research but others might :-) I'm finding all info on this subject interesting and useful

Karen

Of course, I was only speaking for myself :) but if you take the trouble to study this site you would understand why I consider individual pieces of little value to those of us without access to the peer review of these items.

A dog I bred wnet for a booster and the one they gave him he hadn't had before.  the dog colapsed walking to the car which had to be parked a little way from the surgery, otherwise hw ould ahve been put in the car and may have been dead by the time they got home.

He had gone into shock and had to have an injection.  He was 3 years old or more and had not reacted to previous boosters.  He won't be vaccinated again, but of course this will cause a problem for the owners shudl they wish to board him.

Won't the kennels accept a good titre level?

IME they won't Isabel    Most kennels, certainly all the ones I've tried, will only accept an up to date vaccination certificate. They are not interested in titre levels or homeopathic vaccinations...I don't know if this is perhaps a requirement of their licence??

Yes, I gather that councils require boarding kennels to insist that dogs and cats show evidence of up-to-date vaccination or the boarding licence will be revoked.

I thought I had seen a poster somewhere say they were having titre levels accepted at their kennels which I think would be fair enough and ought to satisfy a council.  I would be pretty surprised if any of them would accept homeopathic cover though.

They are upto date if they are used according to the manu`s data so I don`t see how councils can say any different.

I have had this discussion with the kennels I use, who have recently tightened up and actually insist on seeing the vax certificate and noting the details.

They have told me that it is now a condition of their insurance. They have been advised that if a boarding dog were to become ill and the owner claim that it caught whatever it had while in kennels, the insurers would inspect all the records of all the boarders there at the time and in the preceding period. If any was found to have missing or incomplete evidence of vaccination details, they wouldn't be covered.

They agreed with me that it was a silly rule, as if a boarding dog caught a vaccinatable illness while in the kennels either a) the ill dog itself would not have been vaccinated or b) if it had, the vaccine would plainly not have worked, but that's the rules and they wouldn't dare operate without insurance, even if it were legal.

They will sometimes accept an unvaccinated dog by prior arrangement as they have a separate building which is an isolation unit, but I don't fancy boarding my dog where there might be sick dogs iykwim.

As I said Miss/M, how can the councils or insurances not accept them being upto date when they are, as deemed by the vaccine manufacturers themselves?

The government accept animals being vaccinated for rabies in accordance to those same manufacturers, so how can councils/boarding kennels not

Doesn`t make sense

My friend used to run a fully licensed boarding kennels and she could accept the vet's paperwork showing adequate titre levels. She only ever had one dog boarded that had his titres done (he had an immune system problem or had reacted badly to a booster - I can't remember which). All the other customers were boostered conventionally. She couldn't accept dogs who had been treated with nosodes.

I think it is very, very sad you lost your dog and I offer my sincere condolences but feel it unfair to comment without knowing what the vet would wish to say. 
Sadly a few dogs may react badly but the benefits for the majority are enormous so I don't think it would ever be the case of "an ignorant pet owner" that would opt to take the course of vaccination after all to loose your pet to one of the deseases that used to be common would be equally tragic.

I agree with what Isabel said -especially having lost a dog to distemper due to a breeder who didn't vaccinate, and having seen 3 others die of distemper and parvo. But I would like to add how very, very sorry I am for your loss, what an awful experience and tragedy. I have Goldens myself and know how special they all are.

That is a horific story, so sorry for your loss Maria.

Our dog had a serious adverse reaction to a rabies vaccination last year and he nearly died.
We later found out that he should not have been vaccinated agains rabies until he's at least 12months old (breed specific), but our vet did't know this, he was 6months old when vaccinated.

You have my full support.

I am so sorry to hear of this awful experience that you have had and so sorry for Spangler.  I am very concerned about over vaccination and with the help of my Vet have just had a newish vaccination carried out on my girls. Procyon. My Vet informs me that this vaccination is only carried out every three years, but advises on having Parvo done every year.  I will have to think about that one.  Wouldn't that be the way to go instead of every year and potentially over dosing a dogs system. No-one seems to have all the answers do they!

Im really sorry for your loss x

Why didnt the vet do the operation there and then? It was obvious he was seriously deteriating, he needed help asap.

RIP Spangler x

Chrisjack, I don't know why the vet didn't do the operation there and then, I still can't understand why we didn't insist, it was all so traumatic I don't think we were thinking straight and yes he did need help asap, it was awful the way things happened! Thanks for your reply and kind thoughts!
Maria 

I think you have a very wise vet - I don't have any other dogs at the moment, Spangler was my first, but one day we will probably have another dog, and we'll certainly be more careful about over dosing on vaccines. Every 3 years should be the way to go and would be so much safer from what I've been reading. Can your vet check for Parvo with a blood test for antibodies?   I'm not sure but I think in America vaccines are every 3 years. Lots of info on websites advise 2 - 3 years so it's difficult to know what's best when the drug companies and most vets advise every year. 
Thanks for your reply and kind words which I do appreciate.
Maria

Maria, we had a thread recently about the frequency of vaccines and not a single poster reported their vet not adopting the 3 year regime (if you use the search facility you will find plenty on this subject) for the diseases appropriate to that.

I told my vet a few weeks ago that I wouldn't be boostering Maddie, as her immune system was compromised enough and that nearly all epi dog owners advised against yearly vaccs. He went on to tell me how I should but I was just as adamant and we compromised and will be titre testing later. I really don't want any vaccines given to her. I will be looking for information into nosodes (?) so if anyone can point me in the right direction?

Maria, I am so sorry for your loss, sending <<<hugs>>>
Dee x

Try Ainsworths.  http://www.ainsworths.com/site/category.aspx?CategoryId=49

If they are good enough for the Queen, then they are good enough for me!! :D

Heres some links about titres, homeopathy & nosodes M :)

But if I were you & considering them I`d use them under guidance of a h/pathic vet :)

http://www.irishwolfhounds.org/homeopathy.htm
http://www.caberfeidh.com/HHC.htm
http://www.naturalrearing.com/J_In_Learning/Immunization/NOSODES.htm

Our vet didn't adopt the 3 yr regime :(  Despite using a vaccine which is guaranteed to work for 3 years (Duramune), they still give the full vaccination every year.  For this reason we will be seeing another vet for the next 3 yrs for boosters only, for lepto and parainfluenza, which are the only 2 that do need to be given every year according to the vaccine manufacturer.

Didn't your vet continue using the annual regime because of ordering costs on the annual ones such as Lepto?  Anyway you don't seem to have had any difficulty finding one that does :)

I know Isabel, but most pet owners won't be like me, and won't question what their vet says, research how long the vaccine is valid for, then find another vet who is willing to stock the separate vaccines.  Most pet owners will just do what the vet recommends, which is an annual full booster.

Hi Alison, heres what the manufacturers, Schering Plough say about their vax procyon

*Duration of immunity is at least 3 years for distemper, adenovirus (CAV 1 and CAV 2) and parvovirus and at least 12 months by challenge for parainfluenza, coronavirus and Leptospira interrogans serovars canicola and icterohaemorrhagiae.*

As you can see they tell you it gives immunity to parvo for at least3yrs so do not understand why your vet would suggest having parvo done every year

I think you should print it out, show it to him & ask for his explanation :)

Its from the link below

http://www.noahcompendium.co.uk/Schering-Plough_Animal_Health/Procyon_Dog_DA2PPi_CvL/-39330.html

Some vets seem to be advising annual Parvo in response to a particular high local risk.  Personally, I'd certainly be willing to listen to my vets arguement on this :)

Giving a dog more vaccine does not protect it more :(

As 123 has said, giving more vaccines will not make a dog immune.

It doesn`t work like that :(

Absolutely, if an average individual has full immunity neither the illness nor a booster will have any effect. :)