"Dale was apparently on a website somewhere and mentioned that his dog was no better"

Which one was Dale - which episode and which dog?

:)

That doesn't suprise me at all - Also there was one last week, the 2 jack russells, it actually showed on the tv program that their situation had not improved.  I don't think these methods would work long term because they aren't actually teaching the dogs that alternative behaviours get rewards and the 'bad' behaviour get them no where.  They are either being scared or forced into doing or not doing something.  Some of them may have appeared to go away improved, but I would think it will last with very few of them.

Karen

"there was one last week, the 2 jack russells, it actually showed on the tv program that their situation had not improved"

The lady trainer had said to the owners of that JRT that it was possible their home situation wouldn't improve even though the dog had considerably while at Dog Borstal.  This was due to them having 2 dogs which were known to not get along and hadn't done right from the word go.  The trainer said to the owners that if things didn't markedly improve in something like 3/4 months they may have to seriously consider rehoming one of the dogs.

The lady trainer had said to the owners of that JRT that it was possible their home situation wouldn't improve

So her methods didn't work for these dogs!  And yes if they weren't able to get on long term then maybe rehoming one of them would be fairer to the dogs, but maybe if different reward based methods had been tried so they could have learned that good things happened in each others presence and used positive and negative reinforcers then maybe they would have learned to get along.  Just because two dogs are known not to get along doesn't mean that they can't learn to.

Karen

"So her methods didn't work for these dogs!"

The lady trainer was only working with one of the dogs not both. It was only on the last day that the other dog came to Dog Borstal and the trainer was able to see how the dogs interacted.  I think the biggest mistake they made with both dogs was by trying to give the youngest one place of 'top dog' as in my opinion it was the older one!

"Just because two dogs are known not to get along doesn't mean that they can't learn to."

Yes I agree with that but at the same time I'm under no illusion that dogs who don't get along will ever as some just don't.  I believe the main 'problem' surrounding these two particular dogs was that they were so similar personality wise that they completely clashed.  Coupled with the fact that there was no obvious 'top dog' and they both appeared to be 'fighting for dominance' I believe it would have been better to rehome the younger one.  By doing this the older one would have been re-establish as an an only dog i.e how it was before the younger one was brought into the house as thats when it was probably happy.  It would also give the younger one a chance to blossom into the lovely dog it could obviously be (as those who watched that episode saw it was when at Dog Borstal by itself) :)

thought this was interesting.  An interview with rob, one of the trainers.  Seems the jrt owner didnt even want to train his dog, just be on tv!

Dog Borstal's Rob Alleyne interview
March 21st, 2006
Rob Alleyne, author of The Trouble-Free Dog and trainer on Dog Borstal, tells us about his approach to dog training and his experience of working on the BBC 3 show.

How did you become a professional dog trainer?
I used to attend a dog training class with my own dog 20+ years ago. Then the woman who ran it decided to retire and offered it to me. I was only 19 or 20 and was terrified at the prospect, but reluctantly agreed rather than see the class close. And I have run classes ever since.

Like most good trainers, I develop by studying what I am doing, and looking to see how it can be improved. There are few truly wrong methods per se that should never be used, though there are many that are used inappropriately. I also look at things that other people do, and use them or modify them to suit my situation or client if necessary.

Learning is an ongoing process, there are things that I do now that I won't be doing in five years, and there are things that I did five years ago that I can't believe I did or told people to do. But that is how we learn.

Where did the idea for Dog Borstal come from?
Apparently the idea was thought up by the programme's Executive Producer, after fostering a rescue dog that would have otherwise had major, though unnecessary, surgery.

How did you become involved in Dog Borstal?
I received a phone call asking me if I thought that it could be done, and if I thought that I could do it? The rest, as they say, is history.

Is your fellow Dog Borstal trainer, Mic Martin, as scary as he seems on tv?
Only if you cross him. Actually, he really isn't that scary at all. He gives a lot of himself when training, and he asks a lot in return. People who aren't prepared to do that get it in the neck, and he makes no apologies for that.

To be honest, prior to meeting Mic, I was convinced that I would absolutely hate him, But in fact we get on really well. People have accused him of all sorts, that he's homophobic, sexist, and a bully. Watching him on television, I can completely see why people would think that. But what people forget when watching these programmes is that for every minute that you see, there are probably three hours that you didn't see.

As an example, everyone thought that he was horrible to Billie-Jean last week for no reason at all. In fact, she turned up an hour and a half late for filming, keeping the whole crew waiting, and apparently, her only excuse was that she had stopped on the hard shoulder for that long as Fudge needed to get it on with Shag Teddy, which she thought was very funny. Needless to say, Mic was not impressed, and what you saw was the immediate aftermath.

And Dale from the first show told the other students that he only came on because he wanted to be on television, and had no real desire to train his dog. Nobody notices how encouraging Mic is when it is going well, or how much he supports the dogs though, which is a shame.

Why do you think dogs and humans live and work together so well?
Because we are so similar in so many ways, and yet so different in others. They make very good dogs, but very poor people, and my clients are usually people who have forgotten this.

What's your main tip for people who have recently taken on a puppy or adult dog?
Treat it as the family dog from the time you bring it home. It is not a new baby, it is a new puppy, and although there may be some similarities, it is governed by some very different rules from a human child.

Educate it primarily on how to do the right thing. It will learn so much more quickly if you take the time to show it the right way to do things, rather than waiting for it to do the wrong thing and then punish it. Look at all of the things that you are letting it do as a puppy. If you would not be happy for him/her to do them as an adult, stop it now, and show it what it should be doing instead.

Do you have dogs?
I have a five year old German Shepherd named Jester. Never was a dog more appropriately named, he is such a clown.

Read our review of BBC 3's Dog Borstal or buy Rob's book The Trouble-Free Dog.

GREAT POST!!!  Wow... very good read.

Ditto!! thanks for pasting that up :D
Just goes to show about Tv editing!

Having missed every episode - has anyone out there taped it??? - I can't speak with any knowledge of what I speak. But I'm fascinated by the feedback it has generated in various places so went Googling and found, on a dogblog, this interesting comment from the owner of Flake:

>As the 'GAY' owner of Flake I am, please that you recognised the real Mic, and that was with a programme heavily edited to show him in the best possible light! The two other dog trainers were both friendly, helpfull and approachable, but my experience was not a good one.I did learn a lot about dog handling, nutrition and grooming ( which has helped so much), but Mics training tactics left me angry and confused.Flake however is not much better and infact did a little welcome pee on the shoe of the SKY reapir man who came earlier today, so Mic I guess you dont know it all !

As I said, I can't make any sort of balanced comment on either Mic's methods or Flake's behaviour but I'm sure someone else can! :D

>As the 'GAY' owner of Flake

What happened that makes the owner's sexuality relevant?

I can't remember which one is Flake, but they do seem to make a point of highlighting one's sexuality in the show.  Last week it was a lesbian couple and this week it was a male couple.  I'm almost sure they did the same in the first epidode, the guy who was going to walk.  This week... Mic made a comment to the gay man... sort of an overt gesture/comment if that makes sense.. but it seemed not to offend the guy. 

I have to say it was interesting listening to the comment from the guy mentioning that his tent will be a rocking tonight when his partner shows up...

>What happened that makes the owner's sexuality relevant?

I wondered that, because of course it isn't relevant. But I could only assume that he'd felt somewhat "got at" on the programme, thus kicking off his comment with this somewhat ironic reference.

In the first episode Mic Martin had a gay couple with a JRT (Flake), in the 2nd he had a lesbian couple with a Boxer and then in the last episode he had a gay couple with a Weim.  He said about the men in the 1st and 3rd episodes something like "I can see he's a sensitive guy" which is obviously how he describes effeminite (sp) men but so far Mic hasn't seemed homophobic or anything like that.  That guy on the Dogblog was made to do press-ups when he got stuff wrong so maybe he's just spouting off about that cos he didn't like it Mic's methods of training him ;)  Also, it would be interesting to know how much of what Flake's owners were 'taught' they still consistantly do as maybe that has something to do with him being "not much better"

As I said, I couldn't presume to know where's Flake's owner is coming from and it's clearly not an objective comment. Although I must admit that if anyone invited me to do press-ups I might show evidence of behavioural problems meself!

I wish I'd seen this programme :rolleyes:

I don't know MM but do know from emails I received from him that the first thing he recommends anyone does before joining a club is to go along for a "freebie". So go along, see what it's about, see what other people say about the club. I am guessing that if TV dog owners on Dog Borstal took offence to doing press-ups that they knew nothing about MM and his methods because I think he gets his reguar club members to do the same.  It's like that awful holiday showdown programme, the programme makers to their utmost to put opposites in the arena together to deliberately cause conflict.  This is what makes people watch

"I must admit that if anyone invited me to do press-ups I might show evidence of behavioural problems meself!"

Mic's an ex-army & police dog trainer so that's maybe a method used in the forces to discipline the dog handlers which he still uses.  Gotta admit that if you got something wrong and had to do press-ups you'd try harder to get it right though

>Gotta admit that if you got something wrong and had to do press-ups you'd try harder to get it right though 

Er, no. Not in my case I'm afraid. Because I don't believe that humiliation has any positive place in management or training. But I agree, the people who signed up to appear on the programme must surely have known what it entailed. However, if that was the price necessary to achieve 15 minutes worth of fame, give me nonentity any day!! 

Er, no. Not in my case I'm afraid.

Same here, I'd just give up and leave. I know how good it makes me feel when I get told I've tried hard or done well at training, but if somebody at training tells me I've done badly or have been stupid, it really gets to me and makes me feel like giving up. So like dogs I respond a lot better to praise and having the bad bits ignored -after all when training dogs, we don't make the mistakes on PURPOSE. And I can be really thick at times and don't understand, even after all these years. I just admit it and ask for more of an explanation and try my best -was I asked to do push ups as a punishment I'd long ago have given up.

when mic was in the room with weim owner... he made a joke about the guy coming home and slipping on his slippers.. put his hands in quotes and laughed and said you twit.... maybe i'm reading too much into it..

"he made a joke about the guy coming home and slipping on his slippers.."

He was talking about the fact that the owner should do everything and anything before greeting the dog.  He used an analogy of greeting the wife first, the kid 2nd, sitting down, putting your slippers on and then saying hello to the dog and giving it a fuss.  Can't remember what the 'you twit' remark was about but it certainly wasn't derrogitory to the guy.  Mic also said that if the owner had an iguana he wouldn't let it sleep in his bed or if he had a donkey that wouldn't sleep in his bed, but they'd still be loved equally as much as the dog - that Weim was in the bed while the owner was on the sofa for goodness sake

I'm not condoning or criticising anyone's training methods but I have to wonder why someone would do press-ups if they didn't want to?  Even if I was in MM's training school and I made a mistake and he said do 10 press-ups I would laugh and say on yer bike mate! Then what?  What's going to happen? Nothing.  Because I am there because I want to be and he is earning money out of me being there.  You subscribe to these methods or not, no one can make you.

Perhaps Mic believes in training the dog owner as well, some owners can be told the most effective way to do things, but they just don't seem to grasp what needs to be done, 10 press ups isn't the worst way way of focusing a dog owner on the challenge ahead.

Coming from a military background, that sort of short sharp lesson is an effective way of reminding people what is required, and not meant to be humiliating at all, it would I can see be totally alien to any one who's never experianced it, obviously the programme makers have included it  to attract a reaction, and carefully chosen the owners most likely to object.

I wonder how many more well behaved dogs would out and about if their owners commitment to training was tested by such methods.

I wonder how many more well behaved dogs would out and about if their owners commitment to training was tested by such methods.

Probably NONE!

For those who didnt see it, here's the schedule for the week:


Thu 23 Mar at 01:10 on BBC Three
Thu 23 Mar at 23:30 on BBC Three
Sat 25 Mar at 23:10 on BBC Three

How did you  arrive at that conclusion?

I have actually had Rob Alleyne out to my home and was very impressed with his knowledge and training of dogs, he helped us alot.

Seems to be, not having seen it but having read the posts, that this is reality TV at its best (or worst) once again, but this time being quite dangerous. I take it these are dogs with severe problems? They only have a certain time limit to train the dogs, and I would imagine all the people involved would be well paid? A 'quick fix' rarely works long term with anything, and the frightening thing is people watch this and regardless of disclamers afterwards, will think that if its ok for the 'experts' to do it, and its shown on the tv, then it must be right and ok for them to do themselves. I shudder to think what could happen pinning a dog when you don't know how to react when you let it go and it flies at you....and as to pinning, dragging.....why? And even if that works for one dog, and i shudder to think of that, how can it be universal? Surely each dog, whatever breed, has to be assessed on both its breed traits and the history of behaviour for that paticular dog? i take it these are dogs, not young puppies, so its more retraining than initial training. Without a good idea of the dogs nature on a day to day basis, with out knowing its past history-however brief- how can anyone give universal methods without this knowledge with a problem dog? I know a lot will respond to general training, but with dogs that have severe problems such as biteing, surely it has to be 'tailor made' to fit each situation, and in pinning it or dragging it could well be in that dogs past something similar happened when it was to young to cope, and that same behaviour could reinforce that humans are going to try and hurt him? Why use force and violence when kindness, being firm, fair and consistant, would be far better in the long run. No matter how long it takes, the end result of a happy, well trained dog has the be the wanted outcome. But, that dosn't sell reality tv. i too, would love to know what happens to the dogs they 'fail' with.

You say you've never seen Dog Borstal and no offence, but judging by your post you can tell ;)  I know you've read through this topic and seem to have got an image of a 'shock TV programme' but that really isn't what its all about.  Its about a 1 week crash course in dog training and behaviour for owners of unruly dogs (cos the owners have let them be unruly :rolleyes: ).  I've tried to clarify on some of the things you said so I hope this gives you a slightly better picture of the programme :) ...

"I take it these are dogs with severe problems?"

I wouldn't say it was the dogs with the problems - more the owners not understanding how they have allowed the dogs to get to the stage they're at.  Its more about teaching the owners not the dogs ;)

"I would imagine all the people involved would be well paid?"

I'd assume the trainers are paid a bit (not a great deal but more than they'd get doing training classes for a week) but I certainly don't believe the owners of the dogs will get a penny.  The owners incentive to go will be a free weeks long training session with experienced trainers/behaviourists and to 'get a well behaved dog' at the end of it.

"A 'quick fix' rarely works long term with anything"

Its not about a 'quick fix' - its about teaching the owners techniques for them to consistantly carry on for the life of the dog.

"i take it these are dogs, not young puppies"

There's been two 10 month old puppies but the majority have been adults.

"its more retraining than initial training"

Thats debatable as some of the owners don't seem to have done much in the way of training with their dogs at all

"with out knowing its past history-however brief- how can anyone give universal methods without this knowledge with a problem dog?"

A camera crew goes to the owners home before they go to the training centre and records exactly what goes on which the trainers can then watch.  The owners have an 'interview' with their designated trainer on day 1 to tell them about life with their dog.  This is how the trainers get the history of the dog.  The trainers will assess every dog as an individual and know of the breed traits and characteristics - they are experts in their field and have a lot of experience with dogs of all breeds and ages (irrispective of what people think of some of their training methods).

Regarding the pinning of the Weim it was the trainer who did it on one occasion as it had his hand in its mouth and was biting down though did not draw blood.  The trainer did not say to the owners "now you try" - it was him and him only.

"Why use force and violence when kindness, being firm, fair and consistant, would be far better in the long run."

The vast majority of the training was 'positive'.  I don't believe violence ever came into it in any of the training.  Some force yes, but this is a method these particular trainers used only on particular behaviour.

"No matter how long it takes, the end result of a happy, well trained dog has the be the wanted outcome."

And I believe this is the goal - the trainers give the owners a 'crash course' and then the owners are supposed to go away having learnt a heck of a lot and continue to make progress.  The owners and dogs are 'revisited' after 2 months and so far all of them have been seen to have made excellent progression :)  Its then up to the owners to continue being consitant with the training methods they've been taught like it is after any dog training course has ended.

Well, Like i said, i didnt see it, just read about it here, so no offence taken.  i don't like 'crash courses' in anything regarding animals, prefering to take the long way round,firm kindness with motivation and encouragement. it does worry me with programs like this though, in case someone does try to copy what they have seen and falling foul of it, sometimes with dire consequencies for either them or the dog. have to make a note to try and remember to see it, if I can work out the top box lol

Hi Calmstorm,

I think given that you haven't seen it you've got a pretty good take on it.  I would absolutely agree that most of the methods used are a quick fix rather than training as you said with firm kindness and motivation.  I think so far out of the 9 dogs with different problems one of the training techniques have been shake a bottle of stones at the dog and that has been used on 7 of the 9 dogs.  It has been mentioed that this method is just used to startle the dogs but a few of these dogs have been of a sensitive nature and have been scared by this 'tool'
It's on at 9 tonight I think.

Karen

*bump*
Its on again :D

Just watched it, sad that the trainer had to resort to calling that man names - there was no need for that - good that the dogs all passed though.

Dee

Nearly had a heart attack when they showed what was coming later in the programme. I thought Mic had hit the Yorkie Turned out he was splashing water on it

Hi calmstorm,

Well I have watched every programme and I'm with you on this.  The trainer who impresses me most is Robert Alleyne but even he doesn't - or isn't allowed to - give the reason for why a particular method is used with one dog/problem but not another. 

A someone said earlier on in this thread, these are dogs whose behaviour stems from lack of training not intractable problems because of trauma or breeding.  Also, although the trainers may only get a slightly enhanced fee they are certainly getting free advertising beyond their wildest dreams - something that old MM seems to take full advantage of. (K9. K9. K9...)

I could rant on about this for ages - but hey, that's what family are for, right? So I'll just end with this: why, despite the constant emphasis on heel work, do none of the dogs actually seem to heel?  Just get dragged around on the end of slightly shorter lead and pulled into position? And why do the 'end of term' tests seems so artificial and untesting? And why...but enough.

Please, someone come up with a dog programme that gives a good, balanced and reasoned way to work with companion dogs and also a little bit on ethical issues as well (puppy farming, rescue policies, over-breeding, shoosing a dog etc.)  But then where's the money in that (she snarks cynically)?

Rant over.

I know Robert Alleyne personally, and he is an excellent trainer and a committed and passionate dog person. He was also until very very recently, a dog warden in the south east, but his behavioural training has become more of a full time vocation. He helped me to reclaim a GSD which has been mis-homed, even though it wasn't on his patch. He also helped the lady (for whom the dog was unsuitable) get a more suitable dog, and join his training classes so that it would be a successful partnership. He gives as much to the owners as to the dogs. He also judged our dog club fancy dress at Christmas and placed us third (so I'm not biased). I must admit that initially, I did wonder whether he had done the right thing associating with this particular programme, but having watched a few, I think his qualities shine through.
Kat

missed it was at ringcraft does anyone know if its repeated?

Cava14Una thought the same as you thought he had hit the dog untill they showed him splashing the dog in the face with water

Me too! Was horrified at the thought! What a horrible man Mic martin is.

It is repeated, I think it's Friday evening, possibly Saturday.