Ben is a totally unsocialised 13 week old working beardie. He adores cats and other dogs, especially his little friend Finn the very well socialised 8 week old lurcher. He doesn't seem to be scared of people but acts as if he'd prefer if they stayed away from him.

Over the last few days Ben has come on a little. He has discovered toys, and enjoys playing with his large assortment of cuddly/squeaky ones. He has also been a little more tolerant of human approaches, although he still doesn't seem to like them much. He wasn't very well last week, so the improvement in socialisation may go along with his feeling better.

At present he is in the kitchen where the other dogs spend most of their time, in a very large crate along with Finn. From the beginning Ben has loved his cage/crate and bed, and I've noticed, again over the last few days, that he wags his tail when spoken to, and will even lick fingers as long as he is in the cage .

Both pups are normally very clean, but I'm up late tonight working on something, and didn't let them out at the usual time for their bedtime pee. So there was a big piddle in the cage, which had leaked out onto the kitchen floor. Since the deed was done, I started to dry the floor before taking the pups out - and Ben began to play with the cloth.

For 15 minutes we had a lovely game, with him racing along inside the cage (with Finn) as I waved the cloth, wagging his tail madly, woofing happily and wagging harder when I spoke to him. Fingers stuck into the cage were licked, and he held his head to the wire for his ears to be rubbed.

Then I went into the cage and Ben instantly reverted to his stolid little self, putting up with my presence, but refusing to approach me, and making it clear that he'd much rather that I left him alone.

I'm delighted that he played with me and enjoyed it of course, but I'm also totally stumped. This is something I've never come across before, I've no idea why he seems to like human company as long as it is through wire, and I've even less notion about how best to progress from here. I'd be really grateful for any suggestions or explanations.

Hi sis,:D , As we know so very little about his original birth place, I wonder if they were born behind wire, or in a pen and that was the only time they were fussed? This is obviously where he feels he is safe and will "let his hair down" so to speak. When the cage is open, and your arm/hand is in it, the insecurity kicks in again. I have NO idea if this is correct, but the thought came to mind when reading your post.
I f he were mine, I would spend lots of time picking him up, stroking and loving him, and leave him alone when he is in his cage, so he begins to associate coming away from his safe place as fun too. I would also keep the cage shut at periods during the day, so he cant get into it, and use this time to play with him, even if its only stroking and "bonding" for lack of a better word. (What do you expect at 7.30 in th morning :eek )
Kai and Kloud are brilliant together as you know, but I also give each of them time on their own with me, so they are not too reliant on each other. As I said Sharon, I have no idea if this is the correct thing to do, its just when I read your post, and knowing the naturally suspicious nature of the breed, they were the thoughts that came to mind. Hug for Ben and Finn from Auntie Phil.xxxx

Hi Phil, your suggestion about him being born in a pen and being fussed there sounds logical - thanks :-)

My inclination was to do the opposite and let Ben have things the way he prefers for a while, even if it makes me feel like a prison guard :-). He's such a sad, patient little citizen when people insist on paying attention to him that I'd thought maybe for now any welcomed human approach was better than either none or forcing something the wee fella so clearly dislikes on him.

But you may well be right - this pup has me flummoxed.

Sharon, I just thought that if you kept picking him up, and giving him little kisses and pets, as they are a bright breed, the penny may suddenly drop and he would think to himself,....coo, this is nice!!!! Even if he only ever shows affection to you and Ian, that is all you really need.

Hi Phil, we've been doing that, and inted to keep on with it. When he is out in kitchen, garden or paddock we wait until he's tired himself out and lies down for a rest, then sidle up and pet him. He puts up with it, and even seems to be starting to be a bit less 'stiff' and resistant, though maybe that's just wishful thinking. We also make a point of lifting him onto laps and carrying him at the slightest excuse. But so far he has only voluntarily approached, played and made eye contact through the wire. Maybe a more proactive attitude would be better, without giving in to his preference for being behind bars when people talk to him. Poor little sod :-(.

Sharon ask Val for her tape . She has a voice like an angel truly . no send up I promise look no emoticans . I played itfor Berry and Me when she was injured . I did not say it then as I did not want anyone to think im crazier than I am already:D but it is soothing and relaxing and truly wonderful . What have you got to lose . Mari

Sorry Val have to say how talented you are. :)

Didn't know Val had a tape, but I've nothing to lose, nor has Ben and I'll definitely ask for it. Thanks Mari

Sharon,
Not sure what's going on in his little head. But here might have some suggestions or anecdotes ;)
Beardie Club of America
hope it helps out somehow :)

Hi eoghania, Thanks so much for that link, really interesting for Sharon and I. I have searched all over the place for some working beardie pictures, but couldnt find anything. Thanks again.

Thanks Sara :-)

awwww shucks, yeh get awn nau. :O :O :O

Ben update - we hadn't made much progress since Ben decided that affection through wire was OK, so I risked pushing him a bit. I've no idea if dogs rationalise along these lines, but I thought it wouldn't do any harm for Ben to see a kitten being totally unafraid of me, and he loves cats anyway. So I took Ben, Van the Cat and Val's tape to a nice quiet room (many thanks Val, and thanks to Mari for suggesting it). First off I groomed Ben and stroked him for a while. He put up with it in his usual way, staying there but holding himself stiffly, and avoiding any eye contact. Then I curled up on the floor beside Ben, but transferred attention to Van, who played his part magnificently, purring madly, weaving his way all over me and finally settling at Ben's side. That gave me the 'excuse' to 'accidentally' stroke Ben as well. After a while I began to think that Ben was moving his head or paws so that my hands touched him, so I started to stroke him too though not making deliberate eye contact. Eventually there was no doubt that Ben was moving to get stroked, and he began to very tentatively look at me. All this went on for three hours, before Ben threw caution to the wind and gave my hand a lick ... and another one ... and then a real 'normal puppy' happy hand wash, complete with tail wagging and proper eye contact :-). I know our problems aren't over - when I got up off the floor, he retreated to sit in a corner as usual, and he went back into his cage with obvious relief - but he's coming on :-).

Hooray, a (small) Breakthrough!!!!! Someday he'll be lying on his back and nudging you with his foot to 'rub tummy' :D :D :D If he'll do it once, he'll probably do it again easier than the first time. (2 hours instead of 3 ;))

How did he get so 'cut off' in such a short time in his life? Do you know what happened in his early months? I'm so happy for you that there is noticeable improvement...as tiny and infrequent as it might be... so what? It's actual progress :) Keep up the 'thinking outside the box' methods :D :D
toodles :Cool:

Hi Sara, I don't know anything about his first few weeks, and can only surmise that he and his littermates had close to zero human contact. He was well fed when I got him, and though he was dirty enough to be taken straight from car to bath, he wasn't filthy or parasite ridden, so his physical care must have been reasonable. Given his confidence and warm relationship with my adult dogs and with the cats, he must have had contact with mum for a decent period and there were probably cats and maybe other adult dogs around. Beyond that I haven't a clue, and even that much is guesswork.

I probably should have pushed harder sooner as Phil suggested, but I'm worried about scaring him. Still, once progress has been made he doesn't seem to regress, so I suspect two minutes will be enough to have him lying beside me making eye contact and licking hands next time :-). Next step is to get him happy with me standing up beside him - any in or out of the box ideas welcome :-).

hmmm, just musing along here. What exactly do you want Ben to do/ or be like that he's not right now? (well, other than happy ;)) What's the 'penultimate goal'? Just curious.. What specifically is the desired change to work towards? I get the feeling that you want him to be more participatory....or is it seeking out more human companionship?

Sara, I'd like him to take pleasure in human company, but that isn't essential of itself. He will have plently of animal company here, he tolerates being handled and isn't aggressive to people and that would be OK but for one thing. If I don't feature in his world, I can't train him, and if I can train him at least to a reliable recall and to ignore farm stock, he can't be let off the lead. And if he can't be let off the lead he is going to lead a very different, and probably less enjoyable life than the other dogs. So at the moment the aim is to get him to willingly come to me. Anything more will be icing on the cake and probably won't make much difference from Ben's POV.

On the other hand, I'd like the icing :-). I haven't had a 'trainable' dog since the ancient shelties were young and I'd enjoy the chance to train Ben 'properly'. If we don't get that far, well, half of Finn's genes are trainable ... just a pity about the other B-minded, stubborn, recalcitrant, easily bored sighthound half :D

Ok, I see what you want now :D :D lightbulb moment, et al ;)

Well, there's one (definitely outside the box) thought that keeps popping up in my wee brain. You want him to want to be with you in mind/spirit not just the body..... But if you give him space to decide... he's going to pretty much choose the safety of what he knows.... solitude + his own company -- regardless of what he might prefer. So, it might be time now to force the issue. But how and without force?

(this idea is a bit wacked out now and requires something you don't like to use ;) a collar). I don't know how tall he he is. But get a lead that only gives him about a couple of feet leeway from you. Tie it to your waist and hook the end to the collar.

For the next week (7 days), everywhere you go, he goes. Talk to him, let tidbits fall in his path, show him how "enjoyable" it is to be WITH you :) He is to get used to your rythm. Don't let him 'hide' in his crate/pen during the entire time. If you have a doggy bed to put next to you near the bed, even better. When you sit in the living room/computer, he's to be by your side. Bathtub--ditto.

No more choices in the matter. You have now taken the 'bit' so to speak ;) Before he gets his food, clear his eyes (if his hair is over them yet) and have him look at YOU! Time to become a deity in his eyes. Collies really do love to worship and he hasn't had a captain in his life to guide him. So become that, but you're dictating what he is to want.

It sounds crazy and it will be rough, esp. with your other dogs milling around. But it might work. If you give him space to make the decision, he won't. He'll go with what he knows. We all do :) But it might work to kick his natural "trainability" into gear and be the first start to the relationship that you accept your 'sighties' can't ever give you ;)

Sharon,
I think you should try out Sara's brilliant idea. I think it could work. Worth the effort anyway. Let us know what you decide.

Carissa

Hi Carissa, I would try Sara's idea, but it really isn't practical to physically attach him to me and then move about in a household full of hip-high hounds - at best he'd get trodden on. But I'm going to banish the cage and make him stay near me from now on. I'll keep you all posted on how he gets on :-).

I dont know which it is has the driest wit you sharon or Jackie . roflol But whichever I love it .
If Ben cuddled in today of his own accord well then I think you are away in a hat. Well done I would try the one on one training . 10 mins each day just to see how he takes to it.
I know you know a hand is like a big black cloud coming down on the head of a dog . due to the fact that everything is magnified to them, so when he cowers from it, it just means he has taken exception to a big dark cloud landing on him lol. I think that is his problem , Children call it the bogey man . I dont know if you told me he cowers from the hand before but missed it if you did . I think maybe im on the wrong track with my previous guesses . I think it is a phobia. I have seen it so often sometimes they grow out of it sometimes they dont. I am only guessing Sharon as we all are .I am trying to remember who it is said you shoud just keep up the patting on the head untill he realises it is harmless , must ask my old friend joe . He is 89 and there is not a lot he does not know . wont see him till tuesday but will ask , lol Mari

Mari,
I was thinking of the "looming hand" concept also. With Chienne, I always advise "strangers" (kids, other adults) to 'pet' her by scratching under her chin.

I tell kids that "it's like me (a large adult) coming up to you and covering your eyes--- how would you like that to happen?" I always get a kick when they nod (wisely and seriously ) to agree with me ;) :D :D

Chienne then looks at the person who's touching her, sees the non-threat, enjoys the scratching, relaxes, and is much happier. She tends to only tolerate those outside of the family. Completely opposite to Samma who views everyone as a potential food donor ;)

toodles

Hi Mari, I'm used to little horrors who need to be taught not to grab waving hands, but I suppose Ben doesn't associate hands with nice things and so may well see then as big black clouds. I hope so - there was no sign of mis-treatment, and if he hasn't ever been mis-treated he will probably be easier to sort out. Pushing him to socialise seems to be working. A nice couple who came to see the hounds with a view to getting a puppy have just left, and while Ben didn't rush up and spill their coffee (like certain small lurchers and very large wolfhounds :-)), he was quite interested in them. I'd be grateful for any ideas your friend Joe has - the old lads and ladies often have tricks that the "younger" generation make fortunes writing books about :-).

Hi Sara, if I wade through our normal domestic chaos with a reluctant puppy attached to my belt, and followed by a curious herd of tid-bit seeking hounds, including three self-appointed canine step-mums, and a smaller but even more curious covey of cats, Ben would lose his diety before the end of the week because she'd either have been carted off by the men in white coats or be in hospital with a fractured femur :-).

Seriously though, when I took him aside today he cuddled in like a good 'un straight away so I'm going to try a modified version of what you suggest and keep him with me most of the time. I'm a big softy and usually move into the spare room and sleep with a new puppy for the first 10 days - 2 weeks. I didn't with Ben because he seemed to dislike forced human company so much. Maybe that was a mistake, but I'm really feeling my way with him. I think I'll also begin some gentle on-on-one training too. So far I haven't, partly because he's a good boy anyway and partly because I didn't want to push too hard, but I've been keeping him nearby when Finn has his 'training sessions'. Before this Ben has just sat on the doorstep waiting for me to go away, but today he seemed to be quite interested.

Hi Sis, Little Ben sounds like he is coming on a treat, well done for all your perseverance.xxx

LOL Sharon,
I see your quandry quite easily :D :D :D :D I guess it would be a bad thing for Ben if you were permanently installed in an "I love me" Jacket and hauled off by the guys in white coats ;) :D

I also forgot he was so young...sorry ;) Keep thinking he's older, like around a year old. Don't know why. Early senility?

Yep, I completely agree with making his crate off limits. No more 'hiding' away from life in there. Ben resting under your feet when you're sitting, might also help build a bond. You become the sanctuary from the chaos....not the cage :)

I was even thinking that when you have to leave the household to go somewhere, if there's someone else like hubby around, that's who Ben gets to be with. I honestly believe that he's way too content to be with animals and not humans.

I remember visiting with a pack o'puppies (r. ridgeback/blue heeler mix) that were about 3-4 months old. Had no interest in humans whatsoer after the initial mob rush. They were completely naturally socialized with other dogs/pups, but not humans. Same with your Ben. He just sounds as if he has to learn that people are where his future lies, not other critters ;)
all my best wishes,
sara

Well Sharon I think thats great progress. Ithink you still have miles to go before you sleep but it will happen . Next time try it alone with him no cat . and do it for him and you . I still think he will always be that little bit odd rather than scared.
I told you about the collie on loan and to this day she is still a one man dog .
I think Ben will be as well and Sharon it may not be you.
I hope it will be you as you are the one putting the time in .but animals have a way of being ungrateful to the person that will live and die for them and besotted with the person that will give it a pat on the head and an odd titbit . Dogs dont you love them . I bet there are lots of stories about peculiar dogs . I would love to hear them . Mari

Hi Mari, Ben doesn't seem to be scared, he just sits there and tolerates people, holding himself stiffly and avoiding eye contact. But he may just be a brave little man - on one occassion when I raised my hand over him (actually making an instinctive grab for Finn), he cowered away as if he expected to be hit. I don't mind in the slightest if Ben decides that 'his person' is someone other than me. Teelin and Pixie (before she became senile) both decided that Ian was the love of their lives, though I do most of the training, feeding, cleaning etc. The problem is that Ben doesn't have a lot of choice - its either Ian or me - and so far he acts much the same way with both of us. If he takes a step forward with one, from then on the behaves the same way with the other.