Hi people!!! Having just dicovered this site within the past week, I just want to say its been a massive help! particularly the tip on how to stop them eating their own poo for which the pineapple juice is working brilliantly. I have a golden retriever pup, just over 3 months old for which I am half way through toilet training, the trouble im having is that maybe a couple of times a week, sometimes immediately after a walk, I put her in the kitchen for 1 reason or another (usually to stop her weeing on my carpet whilst im upstairs). Anyway, she has developed this nasty habit of doing a poo and a wee which seems to be because she has been locked away for a moment or two, has anyone any top tips on how i can train her out of this habit please? The other problem I have is training her to stop jumping on people which I can see being part of the normal retrievers mindset to want to make friends with all and sundry (extremely cute but the grannies at our local water park absolutely dispise paw prints on their bon marche dresses and im all out of vanish trial packs). Any help would be gratefully recieved, thankyou:o)

At three months old (12 weeks) she should only be having a couple of 15 min walks a day - the rule is 5 mins exercise per 1 month of age therefore 3 months 3 x 5 = 15 mins.

You should be making her pee/poo training outside these walk times.   As for the jumping up, You have to tell her no - if you search on here, you will find loads of good advice.

(extremely cute but the grannies at our local water park absolutely dispise paw prints on their bon marche dresses and im all out of vanish trial packs). :D

Hi.
Just a question - does she poo or wee whilst out on her walks? You say you put her in the kitchen immediately after a walk and this is when she tends to mess. I have one who will no way whatsoever do her 'business' on a lead, we could be out 6 - 8 hours (showing) and she will wait till we get home :rolleyes: so as soon as we get in she goes straight out into the garden. So maybe you could try putting her out when you get back from your walk?

Dee

Ah right, I have been mostly letting her onto the back garden for a ten min run around until she does a poo and a wee, for which I reward her evry time and get really excited for her, haha funny really, at the start she could see i was getting excited halfway through her 'doo' and would thrust n snip it just to get her treat!! thankfully shes seen sense and finishes like a good lil girl. In regards to the pooing in the kitchen, for instance this evening, I got in and let her in the garden where she did a wee and A poo, then i got her in then shut her in the kitchen leaving her with some biscuits whilst i went upstairs, i came down ten mins later and there was a prize sat there staring at me and a puddle of wee at the far end of the room. This seems like attention maybe? or I've thought it could maybe have something to do with being bored?

after eating my dogs go straight out to the garden on their own accord as it gives them the sensation or need to do their bisness (sorry sp?)
sounds like you are doing a great job but it may not be a good idea to leave her with the biscuits as this may be why she is feeling she needs to go.
12 weeks is still very young and some dogs are just more stubborn than others

good luck
anna

animal1 - You say that you 'shut her in the kitchen' while you go upstairs.  Does this mean the kitchen door is shut?  Have you tried a babygate across the kitchen door so she can see out of the kitchen but not get out?

Unusual email address .

yes, apologies for the email addy, college years many moons ago are to blame for that

True - rather odd - leaves lots of questions methinks!

Not really, its only an email address, it shouldn't reflect on me as a person

'lokis mum', when you say i should be teaching her to poo/we outside walking times, can you please elaborate? im not sure if im going completely wrong. I have taught her quite a bit in terms of commands for which she is very responsive and happy, I just seem to be struggling on the basics of toilet training

Just curious, if you have a Golden Retriever why does your signature talk about Labradors? "A dirty lab is a happy lab" ?

Thankyou for pointing that out, thats my mistake in my hast to register to this site, I used to have a lab called Sam

:rolleyes:

I came to this site as I felt I wanted to share my experiences with fellow dog owners and hopefully recieve help and advice on how best to train her. If i am not welcome please say and I will leave the site, many apologies to all if this seems a bit abrupt but the last few messages seem to be more focused on me rather than my problem, thankyou for replying to the people that have

There's been a few people signing up on here and taking the proverbial 'p' so I think some of the other posters are just being a bit cautious that they don't fall into the "troll trap" again.  They've obviously seen things that I haven't (e-mail address and signature) and put two and two together and possibly come up with 5.  If you are a genuine poster people will be most happy to offer advice :)

Hi peewee, many thanks for your reply, I can understand where you are coming from on that account. I am a completely genuine poster with a genuine problem. Although being a 'troll' does sound exciting, the idea of having to live under a cold dark bridge in waiting for the billy goats gruff, doesn't really appeal. biscuit anyone?

hi, animal1, welcome to Champdogs :)

Thankyou Caron:o))

Sorry, what is a troll?

Trolls in short are people who lurk on chatrooms/message boards/forums winding up other users and basically causing trouble.  When they get 'banned' they merely re-register under a different name and start the process again - obviously they lead quite sad lives :rolleyes:

"biscuit anyone?"

Mines a bourbon please ;)

How does she respond if she's seperated from you at any time other than just after a walk?

I really don't think that pups as young as 3 months old have the sophisticated reasoning necessary to associate being left in the kitchen with the desire to pay you back for being left. In fact I'm not sure dogs of any age have!  But she's still young enough to have very iffy bowel and bladder control and she may not have got into the sort of routine where you can reliably predict when she needs to go. Hence the need for constant visits outside and an acceptance of the occasional accident.

The OP said that the pup poo's in the kitchen even after relieving itself outside...

I had a similar problem with my puppy at around the same age (12 weeks) - she would relieve herself outside, then if left alone even 5 minutes later she would do it all again in the hallway.

The easiest way, I found, to deal with it was to look on it as a mild form of seperation anxiety (I say mild as she would not be overlly destructive, just the wee and pooh)

At 12 weeks, your puppy does not realise that when you leave her alone in a room that you intend to return - I would recommend that when you leave your pup in a room alone, you ensure she has her bed, settle her in that and begin a routine so she knows when you are going out.

When I leave my puppy (now 8 mths), as soon as I put my (non dog walking) coat on, she gets straight in her bed and eagerly awaits a treat, she knows that this means I'm just popping out (and will return)

Another thing to consider is boredom and frustration, If your pup can hear that you are still in the house but she cant get to you it will worry her.
The stairgate thats been suggested is a great idea, pup wont feel quite so isolated. Another thing worth trying is kong stuffing, this could alleviate the boredom and distract puppy from looking for you.

Is the kitchen the usual place where puppy stays when you go out?
Do the 'accidents' occur whenever pup is left or only when you are still in house?
How long have you had the pup and has pup always done this?

Perhaps my dogs have always been tough as old boots but for sure, I've never started considering separation anxiety as a factor when they have accidents this young! Mainly I've tended to assume it's because they haven't quite cottoned onto the idea that outside is the only acceptable place to have a poo. I'm not saying I'm right, of course, but I do worry sometimes that we can attach rather drastic labels to very much more straightforward patterns of behaviour.

As I said, I found that the 'accidents' were brought on by seperation anxiety. There are few puppies that do not suffer from some degree of this in the early stages. The first night you bring a puppy home is the classic seperation anxiety, most will wimper all night as they are not used to being alone.
I asked Op for a bit more background as it's difficult to ascertain a possible cause without knowing if pup does this whenever left alone.

I certainly wouldnt wish to label any dog as having seperation anxiety just because they urinated indoors, 12 weeks is very young and it may simply be a case of needing to go back to basics - but, if the pup is doing this almost immediately after being let out, it does sound as though it is some kind of fear/anxiety from being left alone? Which would be a perfectly normal reaction for a puppy that is not fully adjusted to being alone.

My apologies if my last post made it sound like I was making a crude suggestion - I was merely talking through my own experience to offer support to the OP.

xx

That woman on "It's me or the dog" reckoned it can be a sign of SA.

Mind you, it can be a sign of attention seeking too. My boy will wee up the front door in protest if I'm on the phone a long time.<g>

Hi all thankyou for your replies, im liking the child gate idea and am making a very special detour via argos tomorrow to see if this sorts the problem, im thinkin the anxiety of being left alone and not knowing if im returning is a valid point. She (Sasha) is always left in the kitchen-yes, with her basket and many toys, although she has been good on the chewing 'front', so far just the panelling on my doors, which is minimal thankfully....the accidents occur pretty much any time, im admittedly not in a routine yet so im very hit and miss with the 'letting her outside' part, although she is realising that when the door opens she needs to go to her spot on the grass and doo her doo for which i give her a particular treat (pedigree milky bone) evrytime this is achieved (unsure if this makes a difference?). I've had her since she was 8 weeks old, and she was born on the 13th Nov so a lil over 3 months old, infact time is flying and we're actually closer to 4 and a half months!!! how time flies!!! Im now thinking this problem is worse than it should be???

If possible, get the dog gate rather than a child gate - they are higher :)

Daisy

The problem is not worse that it should be by no accounts, please don't feel disheartened.
Go back to basics with house training, maybe try a tastier reward (chicken for example) and make sure you reward within 2 seconds of her doing her business.

Getting into a routine is the most important bit - without continuity from you sasha will not know that she needs to wee outside every time.
Sasha is still young, and as you confess to being hit and miss it is not nessasarily her fault.
Dogs don't just do it to annoy you, in fact thats the last thing most dogs want to do.

Another thing that the 'professionals' suggest is making sure you clean up their 'accidents' out of their sight, with a biological washing powder solution to ensure scent is removed, and not telling the dog off.

Good luck - I look forward to reading your success story

thanks daisy, 'pets at home' her we come (only half decent stocked pet shop local to here grr). i think your right with the routine, im going to draw up a rota which will make it easier to track i think. I have been using pet disinfectant for the smell clear up, but will try the washing powder also, watch this space, i really appreciate your help, thankyou

Not sure whether they do it there - Argos used to do one :)

http://tinyurl.com/rckoh

Daisy

sorry just trying to answer as many Q's as pos, she is normally fine when seperated from me normally, as in she is calm and sits in her basket (ive spied and witnessed this hehe). When i wake she can hear me get out of bed owing to the fact my main b room is above the kitchen, and the routine is to let her out in the morn asap before i do my thing.... although occasionally i havent gone straight into the kitchen for maybe 5 mins after ive woken, for which she will quietly howl for a short period, when this happens i try and make a noise to make her listen then enter so she doesnt think the howling is making me come to her quicker. oooh and the jumping up on grannies hasn't stopped, the latest victim was at our local water park (again) and was seen raising her handbag at a 45 degree angle (i think Sasha was after the moth balls-bless), altho a chance encounter with a 3 month old husky (sooo cute) distracted her from her woes-next 'mud' bulletin due soon

"I'm not saying I'm right, of course, but I do worry sometimes that we can attach rather drastic labels to very much more straightforward patterns of behaviour"

Saying a puppy is anxious is hardly attaching drastic labels to it.

If the pup has just pooed and peed outside and then eliminates when shut in the kitchen then I would be inclined to also think that the pup is anxious in some way.

Also Animal 1  - please could you say how you react to the accidents.   If you react negatively then not only will the pup be anxious about being left in the kitchen but will also be anxious about your return - which will make the pup doubly anxious and will bring upon a 'vicious circle' action.   I am not saying you have reprimanded pup - it is just a question in order to rule this out.

Wendy

i had the same problem when my pups were around the same age.
i got round the problem by making sure i never left them unsupervised in any part of the house unless they were crated.
so when i came back from a walk with them and after i had taken them straight to the garden for them to relive them selfs i woudl crate them , then do what it was i needed to do.
they never dirtied there crate. and as long as i was taking them out to toilet regularly they soon lernt to hold it in.
when i did have them out i supervised them and as soon as i felt they looked liek they may be about to go to toilet i took them straight outside.

young pups left unsupervised and finding them selfs in a situation where they need the toilet but can not tell you in time or get outside in time will just go where ever they can, and once they have gone and can smell that area they thne start to use it again and again.

my pups are coming on 7 months old now and have been dry and clean in the house noe for coming on 2 months.

asd for the jumping up thing. i would use a long line and say a firm no when she attemps to go over to people, then the moment she looks at you praise her and make her come to you, give her a treat.
use the long line for now because she is still way to young to have a reliable recall.

Thats a good plan - if you go with what wolfwoman says there, btu ALSO, teach her to do something else in place of the jumping up, you will crack that.
Its quite hard for a dog to understand 'dont do this' because thats rather vague. If you can teach your dog 'dont do that, do THIS' you will get much better results.

As for the housetraining, keep at it, be more pro-active in NEVER giving her the opportunity to toilet in the house, take her out every half hour, every hour etc, dont let her zoom about, zooming about is for AFTER toiletting, so id take her out on a long lead rather than loose - that way you dont end up spending half an hour out there waiting for her to stop playing and go to teh toilet.

Em

>That woman on "It's me or the dog" reckoned it can be a sign of SA

I kind of rest my case, M'Lud! However, I still maintain that there is a huge difference between the natural settling in process that a pup has to go through when it leaves its mother and is rehomed - a process which may well involve whimpering when left alone -  and separation anxiety which simply isn't the same thing at all and which, to be honest, is not a label you want to give any young pup when the issue at hand is housetraining.

For a puppy to do its toiletting outside then come indoors and do it again a matter of minutes later is not a housetraining issue.

The owner admitting they are hit and miss with taking the puppy out, yes, thats a housetraining issue BUT a puppy that goes outside, does its business then does it again in the house whilst shut away alone is more than likely to be because of anxiety

Anyone would think that for a puppy to be anxious is like saying it's terminal - it is acceptable for a puppy to be anxious, they've been taken from there mother to be instucted by a two legged person - of course they will be anxious.

If my dog started weeing for attention I would certainly look into it - that would cause me great concern, more so than a 4 mth old puppy weeing because it was anxious

righty ho.... im thinking the long lead is a good idea, i will try try this as she (like many pups i presume), does have a nasty tendancy to pull all the time, and more time on the lead would (i imagine) cure this once shes used to it?..... the doggy gate is in place and so far so good!!.... although, i left her today for approx 5 and a half hours in the day time and found 3 poos in the kitchen upon my return, 1 of which had been knocked about a bit, finding half of it in her basket, luckily they were solid....... i usually leave her for 4 hours at a time, returning fromm work at dinner time so not sure what to make of that. Ive read a book saying that when they poo/wee in the wroong place you should never say 'no' because it isnt the poo/weeing that is bad but the place which they do it, for which they cant define what the 'no' relates to and may start to hide the fact they are poo/weeing in future, so with this in mind, when caught in my living room weeing (she never poos in L/Room), I pick her up and put her in the kitchen, of which this past week i am now putting her outside instead and saying 'outside' although i think she will be getting negative vibes from me, because it is getting frustrating. A problem i think i need to get over quickly for her sake. Thankyou for all the help, im not a complete novice but didnt realise how much i didnt know

It is very hard to toilet train a puppy when you are leaving her for 4 hours at a time. 

To toilet train quickly and well, you need to have eyes in the back of your head and observe your puppy at all times.  As soon as you see her circling or looking like she's going to go, you whisk her outside.  Whenever she poos or wees outside, you must reward this with a treat and not just praise.

I wouldn't say "outside" when she has messed inside - like you say, that is negative to a pup.  Just don't say anything, take her out and make sure she is empty.  Reward her if she toilets outside.  Then clean up inside.

You have to actually go outside with her to see if she goes and to be there to give the reward - sending her outside on her own isn't enough.

If you're leaving her for 4 hours at a time, I would be prepared for mess - it WILL take you longer than someone who is at home with her. 

More importantly, you should be spending several hours a day socialising her at that age.  Are you?  http://www.deesdogs.com/documents/dogsocialization.pdf

Are you taking her to a weekly training class to help with the lead pulling?

Have a look here: www.puppyschool.co.uk

Also: http://www.clickersolutions.com/articles/2001/housetrain.htm

this link is brilliant!!!!!!!!!!

I have been rewarding her with treats straight after her doo but i think the 'routine' thing will start helping more than the hit and miss format ive been using, time will tell. In respect to socialising, she spends approx 3-4 days a week socialising with other people and 2-3 days with other dogs for around 2 hours at a time, shes become very acustomed to jumping in the back of the car by herself now also which is good, i think another area im slipping is that i dont want to appear negative all the time and are probably 50/50 (positive/negative) for most of the week, for these im trying to stop telling her 'no' and introduce distractions instead. Again, time will tell

'That woman on "It's me or the dog" reckoned it can be a sign of SA.

Mind you, it can be a sign of attention seeking too. My boy will wee up the front door in protest if I'm on the phone a long time'

That woman on Me and the Dog has got many things wrong.

However, your dog peeing up the doorway because he is annoyed is nothing like a little puppy peeing and pooing in the kitchen when his owner has shut him in and is going upstairs.

If people want to advise on dog behaviour they should consider the whole story and not jump on bandwagons.  They should also treat cases as individual and respect the fact that what is an 'annoyed' problem in one dog is an 'anxiety' problem in another dog.

Especially as the OP's dog is a youngish puppy, this is probably not down to annoyance and is very likely due to anxiety.   The cause of which cannot be defined or concluded on the descriptive comments on this forum.   However, anyone advising on dog behaviour must be sure that any advice given will not be unfair on the dog and will not make the problem worse.

If a dog suffering from anxiety is wrongly diagnosed as one displaying attention seeking tactics then the programme implemented could have disastrous effects on that puppy.

Wendy

There are certainly potential dangers in anyone taking as gospel advice put forward on the internet. And that goes for all advice, not just that pertaining to dog training. However, it is equally difficult to get a handle on the advice you are giving when the full story emerges slowly. Thus whilst I'm fearful of labels like separation anxiety being bandied around lightly, I might well have taken this into much greater account if I'd known that a three month old had been left for five and a half hours! Not that I'm being judgemental, because I know nothing of the circumstances but for sure, it is highly likely that a pup as young as this will suffer some degree of anxiety. As well as still suffering from the natural lack of bowel and bladder control you expect at this age so if the pup is regularly left for four hours at a stretch it will make housetraining a deal harder.

IMHO
making such a big fuss over every little thign your pup does, is just going to make him anxious and worried, and yourself anxious and worried to.
things like SA, and aggression and bieing sad are such human terms. yes there are instances of depression and anxioety in all mammals. however to say a young pup of 12 weeks or so is showing signs of SA or aggression , well thats just like saying a human baby is showing signs of being stuborn and tryign to get one over on you. it just dosnt work liek that.
contrary to some peoples beleif i really dont think dogs sit there all day conspiring on what to do next to pee mummy off, or ways to take over the house. when i got my first pup about 6 years ago i was contantly worried, was she pooing normal, was she eating the best food, was she sleeping too long, was she playing to rougth. for many of my questions the answers were not really existant. all dogs are diffrent.

with my current pups i took a step back, tried to keep the toilet training as machanical as possible, did not make a fuss over it. the same as feeding. if they are hungry they will eat what ever i put in the bowls. toilet trainign came easier for the two pups i have now , becasue i tried to keep things as low stress and fuss free as possible. i did nto bother with trainign pads, i just took them out, and if they did not go to toilet i put them back in there crate intill they did go. they soon learnt to go asap, rather than risk being shut in and holding it.

if you are anxios everytime you leave your pup, they are goign to pick up on that anxioty and wonder what is coming when you leave, also why you are making such a big fussabout leaving them.

so in fact it is your own behavior that is trigging off something.
imagine if when you were a child, your mum cried and got really stressy everytime she put you into bed at night and then hurried off and shut the door behind her. but everytime you called her she came boundeing back.
what kind of singnals would she be givng out?

pups will cry and wimper to begin with when left alone. however if you ignore the behaviour it will stop.

pups can only do what you teac hthem, if you dont make rules and boundarys now, they will just make there own. and not becasue they want to get oen over on you. its just becasue they need to live by some sort of structure to feel sercure.

I agree you can't say that a 12 wk old pup has separation anxiety - but you CAN say that you can see tendencies in the pup in that direction, and that if things are not solved over the next few weeks, may indeed LEAD TO separation anxiety in an adult dog.

Don't forget that the period up to 20 wks is the socialisation period and whatever the dog's experiences during this time is going to form the basis for future behaviour.  Part of good socialisation is getting the pup used to being left alone WITHOUT anxiety - for slowly increasing periods of time, beginning with 1 minute and then slowly increasing that. 

But if, instead, you are "practising" going out for 4 hours at a time from the beginning and the puppy is "learning" to be anxious during this time, then yes, you are creating the basis for possible separation anxiety in future.  Whether or not it becomes SA depends on other factors like the pup's genetics too.

I have seen people with new puppies who are inseparable from them - they sleep by their beds, they follow them around the house, they come out in the car if they go anywhere.  This is not healthy because it is the puppy's entire experience during the socialisation period and when these people need to go somewhere without the dog and there is no one to stay behind and look after it, they suddenly discover at 8 months old that their dog has SA. 

On the other hand I have also seen people who leave new puppies at home for a full working day.  Again, this is not healthy because puppies are likely to become anxious if left for this long suddenly and, again, this anxiety will be their experience of being left alone during the socialisation period - and they will continue to feel anxious when left alone as adults, as a result. 

Ideally you need someone who is usually with the puppy and who is prepared to go out for gradually increasing amounts of time each and every day, not increasing the amount of time until the puppy is used to the previous amount. 

I wouldn't assume this puppy described here has even anxiety though, without further evidence - I mean, this is a 12 wk old puppy which poos and wees on the floor - show me a 12 wk old puppy which doesn't!  So far there's nothing to show this is not just a toilet training problem brought about by an owner which works long hours and can't supervise.