As the other thread has evolved into a debate on Education, does anyone know which of the 'gas guzzlers' will have to pay the new higher road tax ?  Does it apply to all 4 x 4s or just ones over a certain c.c. ?

I am also waiting with interest to see whether this will affect me. I don't see why I, as a rural person who needs a 4x4 to pull my trailer and even get into the village in winter, should be penalised yet again for the London Chelsea Tractor set driving huge cars they don't need, to drop their allergic, sterile, pale faced children off the 100 yards to school.

Not content with pushing the price of diesel through the roof to accomodate for those of us trying to avoid ridiculous petrol prices, the govt will not be content until they shoehorn us all onto the unreliable rail service or, worse smokey, stinky, dirty buses that don't even come anywhere near here.

Hi Chloe - I've searched the internet for more details about this without success.  Maybe we'll just have to wait until we get the reminder from the DVLC before we'll know if we have to pay more ?

I totally agree with what you say - another blinkered decision by GB

I'm not sure what the answer is though, ChloeH, living in the country I know lots of people that depend on these vehicles but I also think we need to do something about their use by people who have no need at all and buy them as a fashion or status item as this is obviously not helping the environment.  Any suggestions?
I'm not sure I agree with your view on public transport these days though.  In my area the trains and buses are very good.  Clean, comfortable, reasonably priced and a wonderfully stress free, no parking, lovely views method of travelling.  I appreciate this is not the case everywhere but if it is managed like this in North Lancashire/Cumbria it seems to me there is scope for making it this good elsewhere too.

WEll first bus in Bristol are a rip off.

I actually live right on a Bus Stop, anf this bus takes 20 minutes into twon, for which a child has to pay £2.50 return, now pentioners pay less than that, and adults just 25% more.

Makes taking your kids out very expensive indeed, and arguably at least Pensioners ahve an income wheras kids do not.

The service is very unreliable with the every 15 minute service often missing several buses out completely, especially on the return journey.

They used to ahve a Bus book with all the services which mde it possible to plan multibus journeys,a dn to know what serviuces there are.  Now they have a leaflet for each service, but that is no use to those who don't know which they will need, or for the occasional user of a particular service to plan a journey

As I say I don't doubt other areas are not as well served but my point is that my area clearly demonstrates that it is possible.
I think when comparing prices, though, we ought to look at the full cost of maintaining a private vehicle for a year, say, including such things as depreciation as compared to conducting the same journeys on public transport although the problem is, of course, that many people, myself included, want to do both :)

Adrian works just 6 miles from home.  If he were able to get a bus into work, he would.   However, there is no direct bus route - and if he were to rely on public transport, he would have to first walk 1 mile to the main road, then get 1 bus 3 miles in the opposite direction, in order to get a train - for a journey that would take only 5 minutes - then walk a further 2 miles from the station to the Asda store where he walks.   Or he could catch 4 buses in order to get there.

Until last summer he would insist on walking there every day - it would take him about an hour - but along roads with no footpaths.

So, he goes by car - either cab, or I take him, or arrange a lift for him. :rolleyes:

Cycling? :)  Hubby cycles 7 miles to work.

Isabel - unfortunately a bike is out of the question, for many reasons - and he is 66 years old! ;)

Margot

My husband is knocking up 50 and God willing I can see him still doing this until he retires.  My father will be 75 next month still uses a cycle and visits the gym 3 times a week :)  Of course other individuals will not be so fortunate but the point is very many could and it would do them the world of good ;)

There are no buses to take us into the village from here, there was one that ran twice a week but then even that was stopped. If I have to go into London for work you cannot park anywhere near the main line station if you arrive after 7:30am - you have to park at the supermarket 2 miles away and get a taxi. It then costs £140 for a one and a half hour trip, plus the fiver parking and the £4 taxi.

I could drive my 4 x 4 diesel there and back for £45. Where's the logic in that??!

At the end of the day, I don't think, as usual, the Govn have taken the whole picture into account. There are those that need a 4x4 type of vehicle for their jobs, for example a country vet. he/she needs a vehicle that is capable of getting to outlying farms at all times of the day and night regardless of the weather and road conditions. A country doctor needs one for the same reasons, and also if they live in the country they need one to get out to their practices if they themselves live in deep rural areas. farmers, small-holders and those with horses etc need one as a necessity. people like myself, who living in a rural area would find it hard to impossible to get out if the weather was bad, need one also. They are also excellent vehicles if you have a large/growing family. very often, the vehicle purchased has to last for a good few years if the person can't replace it very often, so the vehicle that fitted 3 small children may not fit 3-4 yrs on when these children are now bigger and taller. It is also difficult to fit a 6' + man into a Corsa!

Leaving 4x4 aside for a moment, and talking about public transport. Whilst it may be ideal for some, trying to get on a bus with 3 young children, a pushchair and all the requirements for a days shopping is both expensive and difficult. a train journey could be even harder, as anyone who travels with young children will know. And, regarding the train, once you arrive at the station you want, you then have to find your way to your destination, and if this is say 20 miles away, you then have huge taxi fees to pay, as i doubt a bus would take you where you want to be every time. rail and bus routes are renoun for running late, or maybe not at all, missed connections etc. Annoying if traveling alone, but a big problem with kids in tow.

If you wanted to take a sick child to the doctor, a taxi driver would not like having a child with a bucket in case its sick traveling in their car, and they certainly wouldn't want a sick dog. While we don't mind, and will clear up after, a taxi driver quite understandably wouldn't want to take the risk. if you don't have a sizable vehicle, how would you transport the dogs to a vet? especially in the middle of the night for an emergency. same if you need urgent hospital treatment, due to NHS cuts, we now have to travel 25 miles for our nearest A and E, this is the same for many others.  Do buses actually allow dogs on them? or trains? this is the problem with public transport, it dosn't fit all.

Back to 4x4, as usual there is, as yet, no clear cut legislation that says which type of 4x4 will have extra duty added. Its all a bit in the air, together with what other types/engine sizes of vehicles that will be affected by this. As it stands, if all 4x4 are affected, it could be that the old Fiat panda 4x4 could be taxed as heavily as the top of the range 4x4, which really is a bit much. after all, 4x4 come in all shapes and sizes, and to blanket them when many are a necessity seems a bit ott to me.

Then there is the freedom of choice. Why should a 4x4 driver of choice be penalised for driving a car that is similar in engine emissions size etc, to another car which is not so heavily taxed?

i'm all for creating a better enviroment for our children to grow up in, and their children, but not at the cost to those that use these vehicles as a necessity, by singling out a certain group of people. to those 'inner city' chelsea tractors, I doubt if they can afford £60,000 for a top of the range 4x4 every couple of years, the increase will make any difference, as usual it will hit those that use them as part of their liveyhood.

As someone who cannot drive due to disability I am totally reliant on public transport, and despite living in a city with theoretically lots of buses, even getting across the city if I need two buses takes two hours, and many places, especially at the Weekend, including my Dads only 4 miles away are inaccesible by this means, and I walk to a lot of places. 

Thankfully both buses and trains (which are very expensive) do take dogs, but having done it have found the trains too unreliable to use for shows, and Most Taxi's (if I could even afford them) won't take dogs.

Even Crufts with a Rail Station in the complex on a weekday where I had booked my journey had me barely on time for my class a few years ago.  I arrived with a Junior bitch when Open dog was in the ring, and the first two trains had been cancelled and there were delays and missed connections.

My dogs have to walk to and from the Vet, and for emergencies I have to beg a lift off friend or relative.

Someone like me who finds public transport expensive and inconvenient yet has to use it, what is to encourage car owners who already have the high costs of maintaining their vehicles, to use it, when their journey will be costlier than their fuel, and much more inconvenient.

Back to 4x4, as usual there is, as yet, no clear cut legislation that says which type of 4x4 will have extra duty added. Its all a bit in the air, together with what other types/engine sizes of vehicles that will be affected by this. As it stands, if all 4x4 are affected, it could be that the old Fiat panda 4x4 could be taxed as heavily as the top of the range 4x4, which really is a bit much. after all, 4x4 come in all shapes and sizes, and to blanket them when many are a necessity seems a bit ott to me.

The higher Road Tax applies only to New 4 x 4's bought after budget day so people who already own a 4 x 4 won't be affected unless they buy a new one or one registered from today onwards

I didn't realise that MM.  Well thats good news, the chelsea tractor brigade are not going to be caught dead in something old so should encourage them to move on to another fad for this years model :)

Yep. Doesn't affect me then :D

However, the people it will penalise - those who can afford brand new 4 x 4's - are not going to be put off using them by a bit of extra car tax, so it wounds like yet another money spinner for the govt to me.

Yes, you are probably right.  In fact swanning round in something that says "look I can afford to pay more tax" may well have an attraction for them :rolleyes:

I believe a brand new Range Rover is in the region of £60K-£100K. So another £100 a year isn't even going to be noticed.

However, they might notice if petrol was a fiver a litre with the added road tax put on there.

It also includes Jaguars & other top of the range 10 miles to the gallon type cars. the tax group is shown on the registration document BTW

This link might help

Thanks for that MoonM, cleared up what I couldn't make out.....no worries for me then lol....no chance of buying a new one in the forseeable future, my old girl will have to keep going a good few years yet! hope it will be the higher range ones though, rather than the ones the vets, farmers etc are likely to use, the workhorses of the 4x4's, rather that the ones that will never get their wheels wet :) 

All the expenses of running essential vehicles for a business can be offset against tax so all the complaints from business people is really a lot of hot air. A local transport business sent out flyers to all their customers explaining that they had to put up their charges 'cos of a road tax increase. LOL one of the recipients was their accountancy firm who responded by pointing out the fact that it was offset against tax !!! Red facxes in the transport company, especially as they had just spashed out several £100,000's on extra new lorries !(also tax deductable !!!)

Its not a lot of hot air, it really hit some hauliers, thats why they went on strike.(re fuel tax) And, at the end of the day, it hits all of us in the pocket because if haulage rates increase, then the day to day items we purchase rise. It may be offset, but the costs still rise. The tax on haulage vehicles is huge. yes, things they buy are tax deductable, but they still have to pay, and the increases have to be covered somewhere. This is why some of the smaller ones go out of business.

Actually this is a large company the only reason they have external accountants is it worked out cheaper ! & they are by far the most expensive around & always pass on any increases in full & so make even bigger profits.

The reason they protested & threatened tanker drivers with assault & worse etc was because foreign hauliers could under cut them & reduce their profits. A friend of mine worked for them for a while & he was threatened that if he didn't join the protest he would be sacked, he pre empted this by leaving & getting a job with a smaller company who never joined in the protesting as they were aware it was the market forces & profit taking by the fuel companies hiking up the prices. There charges are some of the best around & they can cherry pick work

Foriegn hauliers can work in this country without the need for road tax, and with full tanks of their cheaper fuel. if our drivers go over the water, they have to pay any tolls in that country, and on their way back into the country they stand to have their tanks dipped and if its felt they have more fuel that they should, then they have to pay duty on it. regardless of the fact they will have used fuel from this country whilst out there.

Many firms have outside accountants who can work better for them in the long run, while employing their own to keep the books before submitting them.

The tax relief they can claim for new vehicles is a small percentage of the devaluation of the vehicle purchased over a twelve month period for a few years, not sure of the time limit, or the scale, but I think it starts at 25% for the first year, on a sliding scale.

I have no problems with a company making a profit, after all thats what business/investments etc is all about. Its pointless otherwise. And many hauliers don't have huge profits, many run on empty. but without them, none of us could pop to the supermarket (or any shop) to purchase our goods.

I don't agree with violence, nor did I agree with stopping the flow of traffic etc. But I can see the point of why they made a stand, especially with such an exceptionally high tax on fuel. Its the Govn getting rich from fuel, not the fuel companies. This is the reason the hauliers protested, for 'fair play on fuel' and it was the high tax burden that was causing the problem.

I don't agree with violence, nor did I agree with stopping the flow of traffic etc. But I can see the point of why they made a stand, especially with such an exceptionally high tax on fuel. Its the Govn getting rich from fuel, not the fuel companies. This is the reason the hauliers protested, for 'fair play on fuel' and it was the high tax burden that was causing the problem.

That's why the fuel companies make millions of pounds profit everyday is it

The Government doesn't get rich BTW only people get rich

Wonder where all the money to build new hospitals, pay pensioners their benefits etc comes from Ah yes the big profit making companies do all that or do they ?

BTW a guy who used to be a tanker driver was put in hospital by some of these "poor hauliers"not hearsay he was in the hospital ward near to a friend I visited with a police guard ! & the police officer who I know through work told me not the driver Some really nice (people run haulage companies)

If you looked at how the price of fuel is made up, you would see how much the govn make on fuel. For the people running the garages they get approx 5p per litre, the fuel companies (BP etc) get approx 15-20 p per litre, the rest is tax. this was outlined on the TV report I saw regarding it. If you have any knowledge to dispute this, please let me know where I can read it, and I will gladly accept i am wrong.

As to pensions, our health service, dental services. WHAT new hospitals? Why are so many wards being closed through lack of money? Or, for that matter, whole hospitals closing ...why do so many of us have to travel 25 miles + for an A and E dept? Why is the health service in such a mess? Why does Blair want to scrap the NHS (something this country was so proud of) and make us all pay for private insurance for our care?

Dental care, because the govn will not give a fair deal on pay for NHS dentists, they may well cease to exist, very shortly, even for children.

The well published facts speak for themselves on all of this anyway, little need for me to comment, just see the news and read the papers. so, where is the tax payers money going then?  If the govn is not getting rich...or their coffers, then where IS the money going to?
Pensioners may have the £200 fuel benefit, but they are not having the Council tax benefit this year. And, as usual, their pension is 'under review' not being raised to a decent standard.

People get injured by violence every day, and like all things in life there are the rouges that give a bad name for the ones that protest peacefully. You can see this in any sphere, its a fact of life. Look at Greenham Common peace compainers, the miners strike of the 80's, anti-hunt protesters etc etc etc. It is not really fair to tar all hauliers with the same brush because of one incident, no matter how nasty. The leaders and members of the RHA would certainly not be behind violence, no more than dog breed clubs would support incorrect treatment of dogs by breed members.

The police Officer who you say passed that information on to you, that you are passing 3rd hand, could actually lose his job if he had said this, due to the official secrets act. Very unprofessional, and very unusual.
If an injured person requires Police presence whilst receiving hospital treatment that person is either under arrest; an injured person with whom the police have to stay to obtain as much detail as possible with regards to the offender, which could take days; an injured person who is at risk of being injured again whilst in hospital and the offender is at large. You don't clearly state which this injured person was. There are always two sides to an assault, and as there is only the little you have heard, that is hardly basis to make a judgement on the matter, never mind wide sweeping statements regarding all hauliers.

What have you got against companies making profits? After all, all profits that companies make are taxed via corperation tax.
If companies didnt make money there would be mass unemployment. Then where would we be?

One of the reasons why the NHS is so drained is the consequence of its success!  We have an enormous aging population, steadily increasing and set to overtake the working population and we all are making bigger demands because of the innovations and developements available now.  A Tory Government would not find it any easier and personally I doubt they would manage it as well as Labour have managed.  Money is being spent in ever increasing amounts but it is basically a bottomless pit because more and more developements follow.

OK, so let those of us who want exclusive private healthcare opt out of the NHS. At the moment I pay income tax AND private healthcare - why should I pay for both? Relieve the burdon on the NHS of those who can afford to go private and then the pressure will decrease - surely?!

I don't have children but I am perfectly happy to pay towards the schooling of the nation's children so I suppose you could apply the same to paying for the health of the nation even if you don't actually avail yourself of it.

Lets take it a step further then - I'll pay for my children to go to private schools if they reduce my tax payment - cos, by my reckoning, £300 a month for a private school for one child, plus £100 private healthcare is still a LOT less than I get stung for in tax every month!

But even those of us that don't have kids pay for the benefit of society so why should you be let off by choosing to educate your children privately, this is our contribution to society not paying for something to definately get something of equal value back.  If you go down that route you end up with the old arguement of should smokers, obese people and inattentive children pay more.

I hardly class it as being "let off". I would see it more as taking responsibility and paying for my own children. I have no problem paying toward the social fund, the pension fund, the community - but if I choose to pay for private care for my children and my health I don't see why I should pay twice.

OK so why should I pay once in terms of the children? :)

I didn't say you should :D

Right got it, so if you send me the money you would have spent on private education we are quits, right? ;) :D :D

Um, no :D :D :D

but I like your thinking.

£300 per month - LOLOLOL, Chloe - you must be joking :D :D :D

Daisy

Whats so funny? My local private school is £300 a month

Well that's extremely cheap :) I'd hate to tell you what you have to pay round here - we could have bought a house with what we've spent over the years :)

Daisy

This is a very good school aswell :)

Round here it's over double that just for a junior school :(

Daisy

That'd be fine when the private hospitals run their own emergency ambulances and A&E facilities, so that those who totally opt out of the NHS don't use the facilities of an NHS hospital (or without paying the full cost of their treatment before they leave) if they're involved in an accident or other emergency. :)

It's probably wiser to live in a large town too. Our local nuffield has no on call doctor overnight and no specialist nurses, they nurse a floor be it hernias, hysterectomies, eye ops or whatever, jacks of all trades.

Isn't that what Labour are doing already - private casualty units?

And, given the option between paying a LOT for a private unit to be treated straight away and using the NHS and sitting for 2 hours like my aunt did, at 100, in her nighty frozen to be sent home again  - I know which I would choose! :)

So when a person who has opted out of the NHS is involved in an accident on the motorway miles from home, a separate ambulance will be despatched simply for that person? Or their child?

No, if the NHS has any sense they will outsource their ambulances and then charge the injured persons insurance. Then they will have more money for more ambulances.

Motorist should all be insured but individuals often aren't and not all accidents involve vehicles.  You do already pay a set fee to the Ambulance service if they pick you up from an RTA by the way.

No, I mean the NHS charge the injured persons health insurance :)

Do you mean private health insurance? Just in the case of those that have it?

Yes!

Those who CAN afford it should pay for private insurance. The NHS could provide an emergency service and charge back the insurance company of the injured party. The ambulance would take the injured party to a local private hospital where possible.
The NHS should continue to provide a service for those that cannot afford to pay private or do not wish to, but the extra money by outsourcing could then be ploughed back into the service.

And here is why - I had a bit of a scare not so long back. To wait to see an NHS consultant would have taken 4 weeks, I was seen privately in 2 days. Thats what I want - speed of service, cleanliness, reliability, no cancellations and fast test results.