I always thought of you being rather younger than me Liberty :)  They certainly were not caning girls in the 60's when I was at school although of course being wonderfully free of that sex discrimination stuff they did still dish it out to the boys :p

I was frequently given the ruler across my knuckles at junior school for talking in class.  When I complained to my parents, they always backed the teacher and said that I must have deserved it!  I was a prefect and even made head girl before I left.  By the time I was at secondary school I was an impeccable and didn't get even a detention, so it worked for me! :)

The ruler across the palm smarted enough for a 6-year old. Across the knuckles was really nasty - but didn't half teach you to sit still and listen.

I would have an absolute FIT if a teacher hit my child in ANY capacity. However, I am more than happy to take respopnsibility for any bad behaviour by my child and sort it out myself. I would not like to see a return to the cane - there are far too many dodgy folk out there who may well take advantage of such power.

The only time my Mother had a word with the school was when a student teacher used the ruler sideways on my knuckles and I was still swollen when I got home, but she didn't tell me until I'd left the school so still appeared to me to back the teachers!  That's what I think is missing these days!

I was pretty awful but I did learn to sit still and listen!! ;)

Although I don't recall it ever being used, the ruler was a possibility but the cane had definately a thing of the past.  Discipline was strict but punishment was restricted to detention and just good old fashioned lack of approbation which meant something to us then :)
Fortunately I had left Scotland by the age of 6 and did not return until a young adult, JG, otherwise I think I would have been quite familiar with the tawse :)

I have two in secondary school, an exceptionally large one. The facilities are excellent, fantastic equipment in all deptments, the problem has to be the class sizes and the vast mix of individuals that attend the school. With a class size of 30 or more, it is so hard for a teacher to maintain dicipline when a couple of 'hard nuts' start and others join in. These 'harder' kids, be they boy or girl, know their 'rights' better than most adults do, and are well aware the teachers can do little to control them. Schools have a clearly written behavioural policy, which is a list of behaviour problems and punishments that the behaviour will incur. They range from lunchtime detention to exclusion. the severity depending on the nature of the problem. Some kids would be horrified to have a detention, but the harder nuts don't give a damn, and in fact I know of some that will do something to be excluded in the warmer months just to get time off school. The trouble makers will fight, swear, throw things, all in the class and in front of the teacher. Some teachers have to spend more time sorting fights than actually teaching! And whilst all that is going on, the remainder of the pupils are missing out. The parents don't care, they are just happy to have the kids out of the house during the day. These kids were never bought up at home with manners or respect, or self worth, so how can they be expected to show it at school. The 'higher' ability sets do seem to have far less problems, as the pupils in those sets do seem to want to learn, and enjoy it. Which makes it even sadder for the ones in the lower groups who would try hard if only the rebels in the class would let the teacher teach.

I think what we need is more teachers full stop, and money put into that rather than just spending money on science, if that is what is happening. I caught the news and thought the money was to bring the council schools up to the standard of private schools. Lower class sizes will help considerably, as would teachers trained specifically for lower achievers, to help to give these kids some good basic grounding and some feeling of self worth and achievement. I remember the cane, and the lads who were caned would prefer that to a detention! They were hard, and the cane meant nothing to them. Would inflicting pain really sort out the problem kids? getting through to them, rewarding the good behaviour and trying to put some self worth and pride into them would be good for them and i would think exceptionally satisfying for a teacher when the child begins to achieve. it wont work for all, but if its only one.....Perhaps some lessons on parenting, contraception, general life skills and what is out on offer out there in the big wide world would help too, but I guess that wouldnt fall into the time allowed during the day. These are things that should be taught at home, but as we all know sadly its not.

I was oh so fortunate because I had exactly that sort of teaching in my school.  It was a special school for the visually impaired and class sizes over two year age groups was only around 12 to 15, the whole school from 4 to 16 was 100 pupils.

For this reason stealing and bad behaviour was at a minimum, as there was much more feeling of family, and the teachers strove for and got the most out of each individual according to their strengths and weaknesses.

Considering that we were all disadvantaged by our varying disability most pupils went on to do well.

I feel sorry for both teachers and pupils in schools like my childrens because they become alientated from each other, as it is about coping rather than learning.

My own kids are/were challenging, but if they had felt really valued and treated with respect, then they woudl have been less so.

My son got hismself suspended for several months because he felt that teachers were not listening to him when he was bullied, so he gave them a hard time(which actualy stopped the bullying as the bully's as he was seen as a rebel).  It took the Connections worker to transform things.  He treated my son as a person and managed to mediate between him and staff, and actually encouraged my son to be co-operative, sadly this seems to be slipping,a s again he fels his needs are not being met, so why bother.  I am finding it impossible to motivate him regarding school :(  He ends up going in late, with me nagging him to leave in the morning, and I am at my wits end with it, but know the school can't do much more with the limited resources.  He is a needy sort of kid at 15, but they don't have the time for them.

We ned double the amount of teachers now just to do things properly.

I don't remember physical punishment at my Girls' Grammar School (I left in 1961) but there were always the dreaded "misconduct marks"  - 3 of those in a term and you were out

We were also under presssure to work hard - we were always being told that there were other girls out there, just waiting for our grades to drop so that they could take our places over!

Margot

It depends where you lived! ;) In Scotland in the 60s girls certainly got the tawse for misbehaviour.

Oh we still had the cane in the North East when I was at school in the late 70's, both boys and gals, am really ony 21yr but had a tough paper round ;)

Mmm mis-placed this was in reply to Isabel :D

We had the ruler, and that was early 80's!!!!!!!
Lea :)

At my girls' grammar school in the 60/70s, there was no corporal punishment. The worst punishment was being sent to stand in the main entrance hall, to wait for the Head to spot you and take you to her office where you had to explain what you'd done :D It was SO humiliating standing there with the rest of the school filing past at lesson change - all knowing that you'd been up to no good :D I think that things are much the same there now :D :D

Daisy

Girls had just stopped being caned at my school when I got there.  Boys were still caned though, the same ones usually, over and over and over again and it didn't stop them misbehaving, ridiculing teachers and once even throwing chairs around a classroom.  This was not an inner-city school either. Oh happy days :rolleyes: 

My schooling was in the 70's and the cane was still a threat, though I don't remeber anyone getting it, but the ruler across the knuckles was used.

Isabel I was in school in the 60's and I GOT THE CANE!!!! (my lips are sealed on what I got it for!!) But I was only 8!!!

I think that is pretty horrific, don't you? :(  I suppose my schools were more enlightened and I had assumed that was the case everywhere at that time. I went to about 6 different primary and 4 senior schools being a services brat.

It scarred me for life...same way my Father beating me did, so I was pretty used to it! I haven't spoken to my Father for 30 years now! That's how scarred I am LOL Ahh it's a shame huh? Poor Newfie...!! Glad I didn't make the same mistakes with my kids!  What I actually got the cane for was relatively minor! I wolf whistled a new trainee teacher who wore a mini skirt around her waist!! It was just a stoopid child dare thing, so I think the punishment was definately over the top! Do you??

I can't think of any reason in the world to hit a child with a stick let alone that one :(.
For those of us that grew up in a more disciplined, respectful age but where corporal punishment was not used I suppose it will always be clear that it just isn't necessary.

My daughter who wasted her last 3 years of schooling told me herself that whw woudl not have doen what she had if there had been the cane.  As far as she was concerned the adults at school were a joke.

Interestngly as I predicted a taste of the real world has her on an even keel, a sensible working young adult.

Ah, but its the Cane for the parents that let their kids get away with everything!!!!!!
The ones that couldnt care two hoots what their kids get up to, whether it be setting fire to the school, hitting the teachers, terrorising their fellow pupils.
Yep have seen it, and you see the parents and it all ties in, you can see why the kids are like they are and actually start feeling sorry for them a bit
:( :( :(
Lea

Have just been reading through and got to your post and you took the words right out my mouth ;) :D

I cannot stress how disappointed I am with the education of my children.  The problem as I see it is that the teachers are so busy testing testing testing that the children aren't being taught in depth. 

I have quite a good opinion of the school Flo is at

They are quite above the National average

She is doing really well and the teachers are very supportive and encouraging

I think that Parents who let their FERAL youth torment and torture people and animals should get the cane!!! My friend lives down the road, in what is supposed to be a decent Estate, and has Kids driving her round the bend by banging on her door and climbing over her fence, kicking a ball against HER house as the parents don't want them doing it against their OWN houses. Then there are the ones who can't even string a sentence together(in fact they would have trouble spelling string, let alone sentence!) who go around in hoodie gangs and set their dogs on cats, smaller dogs, people even and seem to get away with murder and absolutely no parental responsibility taken for them AT ALL. Ask them what they are up to when they're hanging around the surgery or grounds after hours and the first words out of their mouths are 'F**k off you fat c***, lovely eh?? I suppose their parents love them...someone has to!:rolleyes:

It's not just the pupils sadly my brother's a teacher(he's doing supply & retires in a year)& one of his friends was so badly injured after being assualted by one pupil's mother :rolleyes: he will never be able to teach again & he's a lot younger than my brother. Why was he assaulted Her son wasn't picked for the school football team & the teacher wasn't even a sports teacher & had nothing to with her son at all Never even taught the boy !

trouble is newfie their parents don't love them. The parents themselves were most likely left to roam when they were kids, and have no parenting skills at all. I'm not supporting these kids, they should be dealt with by someone, its just who? Does anyone take responsibility for these kids anymore? I don't mean the police, they can deal with the offences etc, but I mean real care. They have no pride, no intention of working, no future. I wonder what the solution could be. Some say National Service. Im not old enough to know what that was like, but would the forces want them...lol

I completely agree with your post. And yes, National Service would be the answer. Instill some discipline and structure in their lives.

>National Service would be the answer.

But would it?  You can't go into national service until you at least leave school so 16 at the earliest.  Far too late IMO to prevent problems when you hear of areas wanting to enforce curfews on under 10 year olds.

I totally agree Cheryls, testing of them so often, and starting at such young ages is stupid, and we have the Govn to thank for that. I know for a fact, having had a very good rapour with teachers that they would prefer to teach rather than keep testing, and have a wider scope for teaching, but with the paperwork and redtape they have around them now, and having to keep to teaching plans, they can't keep up, and teach 'in depth' as you so rightly comment. Only ones losing out are our childer.

They also have too many subjects to learn.  IMO the kids are being spread too thinly over all the different subjects.

have to disagree with

>I'm not supporting these kids, they should be dealt with by someone, its just who? Does anyone take responsibility for these kids anymore?

I don't know the answers to the problems but I do know that if we, as a society, don't do something to help turn around the escalating numbers (if media is to be believed) of disaffected kids we will all pay in the long term because they grow up into disaffected adults to spawn more disaffected kids. 

I think what I said there came out in print wrong. I mean I was not condoning their behaviour, as in not supporting it, not that i don't think they need help. As I have said, their parents have no idea how to bring up the kids, and the kids are suffering. They are not 'born bad'. So, who is there for them? No one seems to want to take responsibility, thats the sad thing. The parents can't/won't, social services don't seem to be able to collect the young ones and place in foster homes. What you say in your post is so true, what is going to become of all this in a few years to come.