Just being first with the usual weekly thread.... it's on now.

I had to chuckle at poor Homer the Golden Retriever and the owners embarassment at having to drag him along the pavement to get him to go 'walkies' ;)  The owners were pretty weak and pathetic when it came to the dog though weren't they.  They'd wanted a cat and got a Goldie instead - how random!  They didn't even know how to play with it :rolleyes:  Atleast the trainer got them their in the end :)

That 10 month old Weim had just been allowed to get away with far too much and overindulged!  I got a rather unpleasant shock when Mic Martin pinned it like   It said the dog had bitten a few people before and maybe he was being a tad overprecaucious trying to not let it bit him   But it seemed to do the trick didn't it cos it responded very well to training after that and turned out to be a lovely happy dog when revisited 2 months later :)

And that little mongrel and its owner did well too.  Again was a case of overindulgement and allowing it to get away with 'bad behaviour'.  I didn't really like the whole yanking on its lead thing but it didn't try chasing cars/buses/motorbikes etc much after it had passed its exam so it had obviously learnt to pay more attention to owner than traffic :)

I think the weim was also being strangled, it's an old way of training. I'm not totally sure but could hear gasping.

I was not impressed I am afraid. Strangling is not part of training.

I literally sat there with my mouth hanging open when I saw that part.

As for the Golden, I kept thinking a bit of jollying along, a REALLY nice toy or some liver would have got him up on his own accord without having to be dragged. I have a Golden that is a bit hard to motivate, you just work harder at it without force!

Missed the end as my friend phoned.

marianne, its on again in about 10 mins (00:30 am) I missed it earlier so am waiting up for the repeat now,if you can stay awake to catch the end again :)

Cheers, just switched it to the right channel!

The Golden got worse and on the last day but one was dragged for a long way - the shake bottle I believe was part of the problem. I would love to know what they had to do to get him to move on the last day for the test :rolleyes: The programme has just got a bit silly.

Bring back Ian Dunbar, and even Victoria Stilwell :P

Lindsay
x

Yes please bring back Dunbar, he was really excellent.

He was so great wasn't he? And he gave us puppy parties :)

I had his dog training for children video which pointed out that as a child could not use physical force only using methods that invited the dogs co-operation would work.

I lent it to someone and never got it back, but it was excellent.

I've still got his "Training Dogs with Dunbar" ... :P

Oh, I miss him on tv!! Met him at a dog show a few years ago and he borrowed Banya to do some training. Very nice bloke indeed (I always thought he was really tall but in fact he's not).

Lindsay
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The Golden was just stubborn!  If it was getting hurt by being dragged along the floor it would have been up on its feet in no time.  Instead it just laid there quite merrily letting its petite female owner lug it along the floor.  They got there in the end though didn't they :)

The Golden was just stubborn!  If it was getting hurt by being dragged along the floor it would have been up on its feet in no time.  Instead it just laid there quite merrily letting its petite female owner lug it along the floor.  They got there in the end though didn't they :-)

Actually I didn't think he was stubborn, he was bored and wanted something to happen (Goldens invite play by laying on their backs) and would have got up in no time at all with the RIGHT encouragement. In the end when he was going along happily for walks he did so because they played with him and ran about, NOT because he'd learnt anything by being dragged along.........

Before they went to the Dog Borstal then yes I would agree that the Goldie was seriously understimulated by lack of play.  But the 2nd from last day at the training place when the dog 'reverted back to laying on the floor' I believe it was it trying to get away with habitual behaviour and being a bit stubborn.  I don't believe the dog was in pain when it was 'dragged' - discomfort probably minimal yes but all it need do was get up!  Nor to I believe that by laying on its side like that was it in a submissive pose - it just didn't want to go anywhere did it.  The owners did play with it at the trianing place making it much more stimulated and happy but that behaviour there (on the 2nd last day) IMO was both habitual and stubborness coupled together.

Nor to I believe that by laying on its side like that was it in a submissive pose - it just didn't want to go anywhere did it.

Erm, yes, that's what I said! He still hadn't been given a reason to WANT to get up, the dragging taught him nothing and gave him no reason to want to get up.

Our previous Sheltie boy absolultely loved his daily walks but sometimes he'd just park his bum on the floor and refuse to budge.  It wasn't through boredom, lack of stimulation or anything else it was stubborness.  He knew he'd get his own way by doing it - this was to be fussed to death trying to encourage him to move and then if, 5 minutes later he still flatly refused to budge, it utimately resulted in him being carried about 10 metres.  After that he'd be put back on the floor and then he'd walk fine again!

Goldens aren't exactly a breed to be described as stubborn though!

Neither would I say are Shelties - but individual dogs can have there own little personality traits can't they :)

Just shows how your personal knowledge of an individual can colour your view of a whole breed, as I woudl have listed stubborn as a Golden trait based on the bitch that I know well.

I had walked her for years with my Elkhounds until she tore her cruciate playing with a yougn Springer.  When I first started walking ehr she was awful withnother dog, but first she got used to and understood mine, and then she became very sociable with all dogs.

I am the only one that can cut her nails, and I ahve done a very amateur job of trimming her a bit for her elderly owner who find the  thick coat and featherings a challenge, so much so that she allowed a so called groomer to clip her right off though she had meant stripped as in thinned.  It took two eyars for the coat to regrow on ehr back, but off course grew back fluffy anf harder to manage in all the problem areas.  so now I jsut take thinning scissors to ehr coat every so often, but I woudln't win prizes for neatness, but liek the efforst of cutting the kids fringes when they were young.

She is now nearly 14 and apart from favouring the good hind leg and not putting much weight on the bad is fit as a fiddle.

My nagging ensures her weight is kept nice :D

Bet she's spayed!

Yep before her first season, and never grew up.  That is wh6 she over did things iwth the Springer pup.  all mien outgrew her mentally, adn she woudl still want to rough house with the youngest ones, so had to limit contact after the leg injury.

Actually unuesually for a spayed bitch she had a lovley flat rich golen coat, whcih was never fluffy until after she was clipped.  It is now almost what it was before, but the feathering still feels a shade candy floss like.

"Just shows how your personal knowledge of an individual can colour your view of a whole breed"

Was that aimed at me?

I haven't got a 'coloured view of a whole breed' - I was trying to say to Goldmali that all dogs are different and don't necessarily follow what would be call 'breed traits/characteristics' i.e. all dogs have their own personalities which may differ from what is considered 'the norm' :)

I think Brainless was talking universal 'you'.
Especially as she went on to talk about her knowledge of one particular dog.
I think she was talking of her own experience Peewee ;) :D

Yeah I thought it was a "universal 'you' " but just wanted to check :)

I was answering goldmali's post :D

I'm not a weim specialist, but one of the things that stopped me from buying that breed many years ago, was because of all the reports of high strung behavior in that breed.  I know that many weim's ended up in rescue a few years back for some of the same behaviour i witnesseed tonight.  In the end it was nice that the weim's behavior was corrected.

The only thing that puzzled me... and makes me question if i'm doing the right thing is, the fact that Mic didn't believed dogs belonged in the bedroom.  My partner and I argue about this all the time.  But the show really put a light on the human relationship first then dog relationship heirarchy.

I go to bed tonight thinking about this one... (dog next to bed on my side as usual)

Nothing wrong with dogs in the bedroom as long as owners are fine with it, and as long as the dog will do what he is asked to do ie move or go out :)

The weim's behaviour was just out of control, he was a bit of a lout and it looked to me as if he had been play fought with as a puppy and then the owners regretted it as the dog got bigger ;)

I've seen owners with a Bull Mastiff who were looking for help because they had always play fought their dog from a pup.  Now he was fully grown the playfighting had become a real problem.  They would take him for a walk and he would suddenly just turn to front them and jump up with his paws on their shoulders and push.  We witnessed this in the training school and the poor lady would just end up flat on her back evrey time. 

Dogs in the bedroom? Oh no, no, not in this house :)

As Godmali said, I just sat and watched last night mouth open and shaking my head like some disaproving old granny would at a deliquent teenager :-)  the rattle bottle was again out in force and used for everything I just thought it was bad training from all concerned last night, from dragging the golden retriever along the floor by it's neck, and that could easily cause damage which the trainer said it couldn't to flipping and pinning the weim, I only saw a replay of that bit but he could easily have ended up doing damage to that dog -and if inexperienced owners try this they will either end up with a good chance of causing physical damage or with the dog understandably retaliating and being aggressive with them.  And the lady trainer yanking and holding by force the little dogs head when it was barking or lunging towards the buses.  What would have been wrong with distracting and rewarding it for any sign of ignoring and a marker and moving it away for any negative responses!? 

Also a 10 month old puppy should not have been being encouraged to be jumping and doing that kind of agility - there was no mention of when and what it is suitable for a young dogs whose bones haven't fully developed yet.  I really was gobsmacked at the whole thing last night!

Karen

The harder part for me... is that these are supposed to be creme de la creme of their business.  I know Mic the main guy is highly regarded in his profession.  At the end of the show, his methods works. So the inexperienced trainer..(putting me at the head of that list) looks at what he's doing and are amazed that they worked.

I think he is supposed to be the last resort.. meaning perhaps the other methods were tried before.  Positive reinforcement and negative reinforcement is in even the basic dog training book, so i would hazard a guess that these owners at least heard of those methods.  The weim... to me that dog was so aggressive, my partner was just shaking his head, mumbling under his breath.  At the end of a week tho... after 10 months, the weim seems to be doing better.  I can not agree with the golden retreiver at all.  Again, i'm no trainer (I am certified behavioural analyist for human's tho'), but what would happen if you just ignore the dog and keep walking?

i was horrified by what mic did to that poor weim i could hear it thump on the floor. and that golden just needed some motivation in its life - the owners said themselves they left it all day and then they expected it not to do any damage to the furniture. it really annoys me. and that poor mongrel was just being yanked and pulled and shouted at for doing something that was in effect "protecting" him from the things he didn't like. thought that this weeks episode was auful and that they should really learn some better techniques.

what is it with there rattle bottle - ever heard of possitive reinforcement!!!

anna

I reckon that weim needed that. Having had a weim with  similar behaviour. That was the only way to put him in his place. He wasn't hurt, but I'm sure you would rather your dog get pinned & not hurt rather than put to sleep due to attacking someone.  Being on the floor is a submissive position & they soon learn that they are in the wrong.

i know he wasn't hurt but they are doing this on tv and so many people copy the training methods. i had a dog that needed putting in her place but we did it by ignoring her and giving loads of praise when she was good. mic was a police dog trainer and has probably had many years practising and getting the technique of pinning dogs down to a tee. other people havn't and could have serious consiquences. i do not agree with it and never will. there is always a possitive way to get behaviours out of dogs.

Bear in mind the trainers and owners only have 1 week to 'correct' all the 'bad behaviour' so to use only positive methods such as clicker training would more than likely not get very far :rolleyes:  There was a disclaimer at the end of the programme saying something along the lines of "don't try any of the methods seen without first consulting a dog trainer".  Most people would be sensible enough to realise that the trainers are professionals and they shouldn't be doing stuff like what Mic Martin did.  I have to say I didn't agree with him pinning the dog but at the end of the day the Weim had bitten people in the past (the vet quite badly!) and had Mic Martins hand in its mouth and quite obviously hurt as he was clutching it after he'd got the owner to take the dog off to calm down.  In this instance I feel that Mic was in the right to do what he did as the dog needed putting in its place once and for all otherwise it could have gotten seriously out of control and very badly hurt someone resulting in it being PTS!

Bear in mind the trainers and owners only have 1 week to 'correct' all the 'bad behaviour' so to use only positive methods such as clicker training would more than likely not get very far rolleyes 

Have you ever watched on of Mary Ray's videos and seen what she can do in 20 minutes with a dog she doesn't know? Clicker training is faster!

I am gobsmacked - peewee, have you ever seen dogs trained with a really competent clicker trainer? You can teach a really strong Leave etc with that (yes on a really boisterous dog too) and get a Leave that if well taught, will even work on running deer :) (although of course that should be an emergency Leave! ;) )

Yes I am familiar with clicker training and have seen it in action :)  The thing is its the trainer who gets the dogs attention and respect then its up to the owners to recreate that so they too get the attention and respect.  If clicker training were so fast for everything then why do basic courses last a minimum of 8 weeks?  Its because the owners have to learn how to do it and how to encourage the 'good behaviour' from the dog not the trainers!  I do advocate clicker training and reward based training totally but still feel that in the short timescale that this Dog Borstal lasts the trainers wouldn't be able to teach the owners to get all of the desired responses out of the dogs in 1 week purely by using clicker training.  I may be right or I may be wrong but the only way all of us would know if it would work in the environment of Dog Borstal would be if it was used, possibly exclusively, to train all of the dogs on one of the programmes.

This does by no means mean I agree with everything that they've done on the programme.  I said in the topic of the first weeks show that I thought the 'rattle bottle' wouldn't be used all the time and that the trainers would have different methods for different dogs.  Unfortunately this doesn't appear to be the case :rolleyes:  Yes sound aversion works with some dogs (as a last resort) but a rattle bottle doesn't need to be used all the time - what about a simple 'clap'?  Where are the food treats for the dogs afterall not all dogs are stimulated by toys!  There are so many other things these trainers could be doing but for whatever reason aren't and whether we agree or don't its the nature of the programme.

It really isn't just a choice between pinning a dog on the floor or it attacking someone There are other ways of training!  No it wasn't hurt, but that couldn't have been guarenteed.  How was the young dog supposed to act with people it hadn't had any training previously so it was behaving as a young bored and frustrated dog would.  I saw no eveidence that the owners had tried any reward based training or any training full stop.  If the wrong person does this to the wrong dog they are much more likely to end up getting attacked than someone who tries teaching their dog with rewards and kindness and being consistent.

Being on the floor is a submissive position and they soon learn that they are in the wrong

A dog assumes a submissive position on it's own, not by doing a back flip and then being thumped on the floor.  Dogs that are naturally dominant don't need to exert this by being aggressive, it is just known by other dogs from their body language and demeanour.  If a more submissive dog pushes his luck with a natural alpha it usually just takes a posture or a growl from the dominant one and the other dog is aware of it's mistake,  they don't need to pin or scruff to exert this.  I hate how often the word dominance is used to describe behaviours that have resulted because the owners have been too lazy to train their dog properly, so rather than learn more about dogs behaviour or put the time and effort in to training it's easier to say he does something oir doesn't because he's dominant :rolleyes:

Karen

Also it seems to work but the dog can learn aggression works - so may use it on other humans but may "behave" with the one who did it to him. I'ts just not as simple as it looks and can have all sorts of repercussions, which are not at all apparent.

A girl was told to alpha roll her malamute a few years ago - it attacked her and the dog was pts whereas if she'd adopted a different approach I suspect she and the dog would still be fine.

I can't get over how totally appalling the show was yesterday - from pulling and yanking dog on headcollars to alpha rolling (and let's not forget the choking as well) to dragging a dog (that wasn't quite so bad, although still pretty appalling) but I wonder what Rob would have done if the owner had been a small person and the dog a St Bernard?

To me these are not the creme de la creme, but people who have no understanding of how to train except to drag, jerk or shout at - with the oddd bit of playing or agility to lighten the mood

If i had a problem and the trainer tried any of these techniques with a dog of mine I'd not allow it and they would lose a client. I recommend the UKRCB (Rob's a member) but I'm not so sure now - shame as there are a few really good trainers in it.j

Also let's not forget that abusive methods such as choking, etc are the methods that killed police dog Acer and got several police dog handlers and instructors in trouble - and caused a big shake up. And rightly so.

Let's face it, dog training moves on all the time, and better and better methods are developed, with happier dogs as a result. Anybody who just sits happily thinking they know how to train dogs and don't need to learn anything else, keep doing the same things they've done for years, and don't bother to keep up and to learn new views and ways, WILL stay behind -and this is exactly what the people in Dog Borstal appear to have done -got stuck in the past.

Very true - the one thing i always cringe at is "so and so has 30 years of dog training experience"

It all means diddly squat unless they have bothered to learn something in those 30 years :P A teenager who has been training for 3 years might know a lot more (or not, it all depends!)

Lindsay
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"the people in Dog Borstal appear to have done -got stuck in the past"

I would partially agree with that but 'past methods' tended to be exclusively 'punishment for bad behaviour' as apposed to today's methods of 'reward for good behaviour'.  These trainers are pretty much in the middle employing both 'techniques'.  Rightly or wrongly its not for me to say cos at the end of the day if a happy dog and happy owners is gotten out of these shows then who am I to judge as otherwise they're would merely be yet more dogs (the dogs featured) in rescue :(

Rightly or wrongly its not for me to say cos at the end of the day if a happy dog and happy owners is gotten out of these shows then who am I to judge as otherwise they're would merely be yet more dogs (the dogs featured) in rescue :-(

As usual though, this is TV -we don't know how many dogs that DIDN'T go home happy -they wouldn't show them, would they.

You are going to be shown the bits that are going to get the most reaction.  That way the show makers are guaranteed of post-programme discussion and guaranteed viewing figures.

These shows are without a doubt edited for effect.

"You are going to be shown the bits that are going to get the most reaction.  That way the show makers are guaranteed of post-programme discussion and guaranteed viewing figures.

These shows are without a doubt edited for effect."

That's what I said in a previous topic about one of the other episodes   Because of this the 'methods' used can't really be scrutinised because nobody who merely watches the programme (me included) knows exactly what was being done, how and when.  We just see the bits that make for 'good television' and in the case of this episode it was the shock factor of seeing the Weim 'pinned', the daftness of a large dog being dragged along by its at-the-start-rather-pathetic owners and a nutty collie cross 'chasing off' every vehicle it laid eyes on.  These animals and owners are made out to be at their wits end and Dog Borstal as the 'last resort' when it seems like its the first time the owners have even attempted to instill any sort of consitent training and the first training school any of them have even been to!

As I've previously stated I don't personally agree with all the methods used including the rattle bottle, the lady trainer yanking on the lead of the dogs and the ex-police dog trainers pinning of the dog, but that doesn't mean that these methods aren't tried and tested and known to work.  Yes there are other, reward based methods that work equally as well (however, debatable as to wheter or not in the short time scale allotted at Dog Borstal) and may or may not work better, but at the end of the day this is how these particular trainers work.

"As usual though, this is TV -we don't know how many dogs that DIDN'T go home happy -they wouldn't show them, would they."

They have 3 dogs and their owner(s) per episode, there's been 3 episodes so far and currently all owners and dogs have gone home improved :)  Whether or not there have been any others filmed for planned episodes that won't be shown and weren't successful we just don't know.

i'm not sure that's correct... last week a couple left before completetion... and the week before that i'm almost sure another person did walk.

"i'm not sure that's correct... last week a couple left before completetion... "

They left about 5 minutes before the test cos they didn't feel they 'needed to do it' to prove how much they and their dog had improved.

"and the week before that i'm almost sure another person did walk."

The week before I'm sure someone threatened that they were going to walk but didn't.  Its always Mic Martin's trainees that wanna go - maybe it had something to do with the press ups he insisted on getting the owners to do in episodes 1 & 2 but had strangely forgotten about this week ;)

Dale was apparently on a website somewhere and mentioned that his dog was no better ...

Lindsay