Hi guys, I am new to this forum and wonder if any of you can help me. I have 2 german shepherds, both are rescues and we have no idea of either of their histories. The problem is the male gsd Blaze (2 yrs old)? and his constant barking. I have owned  shepherds before and am well aware of their nature and the guarding instinct but i must admit that this boy has me stumped. He barks at everything , if next door bang their door he barks, if he hears a loud bang he barks, if people walk passed the house he barks, if the doorbell goes then god help us! i know this is all pretty normal behaviour for a shepherd but all the methods that i have tried in the past aren't working on this boy. I have tried distracting him when he barks, i have tried praising him when he is quiet, i trained him to speak in order to train him to quiet on command which he will do without distraction but he gets himself so hyped up that he seems to zone out if you know what i mean and i can't get his attention at these times. I have tried taking him away from the situation that is making him barks but he just finds something else to bark at. He is not bored, they both have a good amount of exercise and also do flyball and agility and he is the most obedient dog in all circumstances apart from the barking. He never barks outsidfe, just in the house. Anyway to cut the story short, i had a session with a behaviourist who basically said that as i had tried all the methods that she would recommend (she watched me do them) she thought that he had probably learned this behaviour in his previous home and that all we could do was manage it rather than try to stop it. She mentioned an aboistop collar but after investigation i really don't like the sound of it as it would mean that he could never bark without consequense which considering his breed seems unfair. I came across a masterplus collar on roger mugfords site and i think this would be a better option, as i could give him the quiet command and if he ignored me then he would get the spray by way as a consequense for not doing as he was told.

I must admit that it is causing me sleepless nights at the thought of having to go down this route as i would rather not but it has got to crisis point as my neighbours have complained

I guess i really wanted to know if any of you have ever used these collars with excessive barking or have you found another way to curb his enthusiastic barking.  Not sure if it helps or not but the behaviourist has said that he is not at all fearful or noise phobic. Outside of the house, he is perfect and loves everybody and is great with other dogs. Our other dog (Annie) does not bark excessively so she is not a problem.

I think there is something else you can try before any aversives :) which is the use of "negative punishment" Sounds pretty mean but it basically means taking something away the dog wants.

My dog is also well trained and a guarding breed (Belgian) but was sent bonkers when new neighbours brought in 3 new cats next door all with tinkly bells on. We (and Banya) could hear them most of the day and night and it was hard for Banya to not notice them as, apart from the noise, she had strong visual stimulation with the cats going past our patio doors and, along the low roof just beside our own kitchen and garden.

She started to bark at night, much more during the day, and at things that previously would not hype her to bark such as people walking by.

I decided to use negative punishment which, used very judicously, can work wonders in my experience. Has to be done correctly though or it will not work ;)

I firstly decided upon criteria - main problem was the cats and each time she heard their bells she'd race to the patio doors and bark madly and was over stressed.

I decided to simply mark this unwanted behaviour when I was in the room and she did it, with an "ah!" and calmly remove her from the room and shut the door on her. I did this just a very few times (It may only have been the once I can't quite remember)and she started to get the message, after a few days the barking generally was down by about 70 per cent and after one week it was down back to almost normal proportions (ie sensible!).

I did not get concerned if she barked at the patio doors if i was elsewhere in the house as i oculd not  enforce the negative punishment fairly.

So basically after doing this for a short time (with fair criteria) she basically went back to normal.

I think this works with shepherd breeds as they are generally sociable and love their family and so removal from the family makes a point. Also it is not overly harsh, but shows boundaries to the dog.

I'm not quite sure how you'd apply it to your situation, but I thought I;d just mention the success I had :) so that maybe it will kind of inspire you in some way as you obviously want to avoid any kind of aversives if possible as tht comes across in your post.

It was interesting that the general level of barking stopped, even though my criteria was to only remove her from the room with the patio doors when i was actually in it when she barked. I  am at home most of the day but go out for maybe one hour here and 2 hours there apart from dog walks too.

I also praised her for making good choices, rewarded for not barking at other times etc.

When she was removed, it was for just 5 minutes and then she was let back in normally.

Hth a bit and may be food for thought?

Lindsay
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Hi Lindsay

Thankyou very much for your reply, unfortunately the method you are suggesting has already been tried with Blaze to no avail. I did exactly as you did with your girl (she sounds great by the way) but it did nothing to lower his stress levels and as soon as he was allowed back into the room he started again so we removed him again (no words, no eye contact) and did this over and over again but to this day it still hasn't worked. During my session with the behaviourist i showed her how we used this technique and she could not fault what i was doing but she too agreed that it was not going to work on Blaze as during these times he really does seem to go into his own world. It was mentioned in passing that Blaze may have been used as a guard dog in his previous life.

I'm sure you can tell by my post that the use of the collar really is a last resort and if i had more time i would try anything but the neighbours are really adamant about complaining about Blaze even though i have tried to explain to them why he does it and have invited them into meet him but sadly they fall into the category of ignorant people who assume all shepherds are nasty big beasties that want to eat you:rolleyes:

One thing that sprang to mind while i was typing was using a noise cd to try to go someway to desentisizing Blaze , what do you think?

If you can come up with any other alternatives Lindsay i would love to hear .

Many Thanks

MM X

Ah OK, it may well be that it doesn't work with your dog esp. if he does go into another world - mine got more stressed but was still pretty aware of everything.

Just thinking, did you use a marker like the Ah! so he knew what the going out was for - if he didn't realise he may have just thought he was being taken out and not understood <g> I think that can make all the difference. Also did you have very clearly defined criteria that you were able to follow all the time? if you can truly say "yes" to the marker and to the criteria then I would say that you are quite right and that method doesn't seem to work on Blaze :)

What does your bitch do when Blaze is barking? are you able to be at home most of the time or are you at work some of the time? :)

Do you feel that generally you are in control and that your dogs listen to you? It sounds as if you are a very good owner and have taken time to build your relationship with them which is great, but do you feel there are any areas (apart from the barking of course!) which could do with improvement?

Do you notice any pattern to his barking - time of day, etc.

It may aso help to know if he is a dog who is protecting or one who is defending. The former may use a low bark sometimes preceded by a growl; it is usually startling and intense but of short duration. It's the sort of dog who might carry through his threat. The latter is a dog who may bark at anything or anybody perceived as a threat (often undersocialised as a pup). The bark is often high pitched and this kind of dog may prefer to back away barking than move forward. There are other reasons for barking such as attention and just sheer enthusiasm ...!

Generally the way to stop barking is:

vet check
ensure the dog is kept mentally stimulated and exercised well
improve leadership and training
implement management procedures
Possible compromise (eg dog allowed 2 or 3 barks, or only allowed to bark in the garden etc)
Try to eliminate the cause and prevent practice of unwanted behaviour (so if dog barks at people outside the window, stop dog from getting to window if possible)
Systematic desensitisation and counterconditioning :)
(this can work really well but needs to be understood to work)
Take away any perceived reward for barking ie attention, satisfaction of people going away
Be aware of any extinction burst
Reward an incompatible behaviour (eg if dog Sits, not barks, he gets rewarded)
habituate the dog to the problem (best for fearful dogs)
Consider punishment as last resort

Of course some of these you've done already :P

I'd say that generally, an owner needs to have very cleary defined goals (eg is dog allowed to bark once or twice or does owner want no barking? )

I tend to reward for barking when doorbell is rung but "take over" and put Banya in the living room so she can see out but not be "involved" as this take the pressure off her.

Just a few more ideas, out of interest where are you? :)

oh - and good luck!

Lindsay
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Wow, cheers Lindsay maybe i should have sent you my hard earned cash instead :-)

Right here goes, I did use a marker, infact i used 'ah', he deffo knew why he was being removed from the room but his desire to get back to whatever it was he was barking at was far more important than anything i was doing. He was mainly doing this at the kitchen window, so i removed the trigger i.e stopped his access to the kitchen thinking that if he can't see them he won't bark but nooooooooooo, he found something else to bark at like next door going out into their garden!.:rolleyes:

When the doorbell goes Annie barks two or three times and then looks at me for the nexxt cue, they are both then put in the living room whilst i deal with the visitor, Blaze is still barking all this time, even if i stand at the door for 10 minutes chatting, that boy can bark for England.

As for my relationship with my dogs, it is a great relationship and the barking really is the only problem we have which considering they are both rescues should indicate the amount of effort i have put in with both of them

There is no pattern to Blazes barking, it can be anything that sets him off , i have quizzed the neighbours about what he does whilst i am at work and they have said that they don't hear him unless the postman comes, this i imagine is because whilst i am at work (3 hours) both dogs are crated and the blinds are closed so they can't see anyone going passed the house.

Blazes bark is deffo intense and startling, it comes in short bursts but can happen quite often during the day, his body language tells me he means it!!

Blaze has been vet checked and is in perfect health, his obedience is great in every other area apart from this, he is well exercised and is kept mentally stimulated, there is no seperation anxiety, he has perfect manners where people and dogs are concerned and to be honest this is the only flaw that i haven't been able to iron out

My overall goal is that i will happily allow Blaze to bark 2 or 3 times, he is a shepherd after all but i want him to quiet when i say so, he gets no reward for barking.

To be honest if this is something that i have to live with then i will but it will mean living in a house where i can never open the blinds or windows or let my dog out into the garden which would be a really sad life for all involved. We have the perfect house for 2 shepherds, lots of room and a huge garden and a mummy that loves them.

Hope i haven't exhausted you with all this Lindsay.

BTW i am in London.

MM x

Hi there

I have read your post with interest.  My 10 month old GSD is absolutely adorable, very obedient EXCEPT when in the back of the car when I take him to our local field, as soon as I turn into the road where the field is he goes absolutely manic, or even if he goes somewhere that he recognises, it is SO distracting and also my eldest GSD who is often in the back starts howling and snarling showing all her teeth to him cos she cant stand the noise either.  You really need ear protectors on it is that bad, and quite dangerous when behind the wheel.  I know it is only excitement and nothing more.  I have tried everything but it is quite difficult when you cant actually get to him.  Anyway I saw a small collar on ebay that someone was selling, I would assume a cheaper version of aboistop.  It gives out a high pitch when he barks, it can be adjusted to react to however loud he barks and also the volume of the pitch.  The first morning I put it on him and as soon as we got down the dreaded road, it started ,I must admit he looked quite shocked, he still barked and squealed BUT didnt like the sound that was coming from his collar so he did it less.  I personally think I had it turned down to low.  After a couple of adjustments I got it just right...he still gets very excited when going out in the car, but his barking has definitely got less...I think I would have gone deaf as his high pitched bark literally vibrated through my head, and passers by too by the look on their faces..hee hee.  It worked for me with no ill effects on my baby.

Hi again :)

I was thinking more about the time out thing. Sometimes a dog may find that rewarding if for instance, it is stressed by the people outside and wants to be quiet, then it could be OK for the dog. It's hard to tell this kind of thing over the net which is a shame.

Are you fairly assertive when he does bark - for example, do you use body blocking, a firm voice which can then quickly change to "good quiet" etc, that sort of thing?

Do you "insist" as far as you are able, or is this hard to do?

Sorry not sure if i am explaining myself very well!

Lindsay
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Hi Lindsay

Yes, i know exactly what you mean. I don't think he finds his time out rewarding as he is seperated from me and as you know shepherds love their mummies :-)

I am asssertive when he acts like this and yes i do body block and then when he is quiet he is rerwarded for being quiet, until the next time.................

I appreciate that this is difficult to work out over the net, i spoke to the behaviourist that we saw on the phone last night and she seems to think that i have tried everything that i can and that i will just have to have a management strategy in place. It's such a shame as he is such a good boy and i hate to see him so stressed out by this. Do you have any thoughts on the noise cd that i mentioned, i know it won't help on the visual stimulus but i thought it might go someway to desentisising (sp)?  him to noises that he can't see and stop him reacting in such a loud way

I really appreciate your good advice

Cheers
MM x

Thankyou :)

I think the noise cd is certainly worth a try - does it have good instructions with it, and is it specially for dogs? I know there are a variety around.

Basically the idea would be to desensitise and then countercondition; I'd think it may certainly help. Yes, I'd give it a go :)
As you say it won't prevent the visual stimulus - it may be that if you can't prevent this whilst you are using the cd then it will have less or even no effect, but I'm not sure on that to be honest.

Lindsay
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