I have been to a show today ( just to watch, my bitch is in season) and the judge was really rough when going over the dogs, the puppies were quite upset by this. My question is, do you complain to the judge?, complain to the stewards? take your dog out of the ring and tell the stewards why?  Alot of people round the ring and as they left the ring were complaing about the handling of the dogs. Young puppies can be easily put off by this. What would you do?

Personally I would go and speak to the Show's Secretary or Show Manager. Even if it is too late on the day to do anything then at least they will be aware of the problem and speak to the Judge or decline to use the Judge again!! Was it an Open Show or Champ Show??

I really get very frustrated myself with some Judges...sometimes they seem to go round the class glaring at everything and everybody, I'm not sure why?? Maybe it's a power thing, or maybe they feel if they smile at everyone no-one takes them seriously! I got really hacked off last year at a Champ Show just up the road from here...we were being Judged by someone who has been 'in dogs' a LONG time.He had a LOT of breeds and maybe group Judging to do too...but he seems to glance away a lot, not SEEM to take much notice of anyone really(which doesn't infer that he wasn't taking notice, just seemed NOT to), looking into the distance as your panting round the ring!!! I don't call his judgments on the day, can't think that he did anything too much out of the ordinary, but to be honest he looked plain BORED out of his skull!!! The same as a lot of people I'm not rich and it costs a fair bit to enter, whether you win or lose! The least the Judges can do is look and act accordingly! Now me rant is over, why do people go and Judge dogs if they have no idea how to handle them or their owners??? :rolleyes:

Hi, it was a champ show, and yes you are right, it does cost alot to enter at shows and travel the country, so  please judges... respect our dogs when going over them ! alot of good puppies will be ruined by manhandling.And respect us the exhibitor for the time, effort and money we put in training our puppies ready for the ring. Wether we get placed or not we want our dogs to have fun and make the day  enjoyable for dogs and handlers.

Dammitmrecently had this happen to us,our pup has only ever been to three shows was the happiest youngster ever,the first two shows were open shows,where he took Best Puppy on both occasions,the third show was an all breed champ,and now we cannot get him to even walk past people on a lead,if hes off the lead and sees someone he just runs home,he used to love ringcraft,now walks in and just stands there trembling and peeing hisself,so have stopped that for a while,but not really sure how to handle it,hes a giant breed,and am so upset about it,its awful to see him sooo scared,expecially as he was so happy,now if I never get him in the ring again it would not be that big a deal,but would like my happy puppy back,sigh,any clues as to how I should handle this with the puppy,as do not want to make it worst
Wendy

I always chose my pups' first judges VERY carefully.  Always someone who is going to be gentle rather than someone who may like the type, and I will travel purely for that, and the right venue, to get them off to a good start and make it a happy and nice experience.
If I felt that a judge was too rough with one of my dogs, I would ask them at the time to be more gentle.

Do judges get paid?  I know nothing about showing but just wondering whether they are "professional"?  Is there a "standard" that judges are supposed to follow?

Like Val, I always choose the first judge for a puppy very carefully, and never go under a judge I don't know. Most judges are NOT paid, they usually end up out of pocket, especially if it's their own breed. Judges usually get paid their expenses & sometimes even get lunch! The KC produces a booklet on judging, but it's mostly how to conduct yourself in the ring (dress smartly, don't stand in the ring with a fag in one hand and a G & T in the other :D )
These days, of course, before getting on a judging list, people have to attend seminars on the breed, on conformation & KC Rules & pass a written exam. Hopefully, breed seminars include "hands on" experience.
There's no excuse for being rough with puppies but, I suppose, not all judges know the best way to handle every breed.

Val/Anwen - I think that when you have been showing a while you obviously are more aware of judges and who is a gentle/rough judge but when you are new this is a lot harder.  Although learning about who to go under who is a good/fair judge etc. all the time.

I recently went on a breed seminar for my breed mainly to learn about the breed - no plans to judge (not yet anyway :)) - and no advice was given as to how to 'hands on' the dog - you really were left to your own on that and although I passed my exam there was a comment that I needed more hands on experience!

It is such a shame when a judge is rough but with time and patience you can get over these traumas I'm sure.  After my dog was bitten by a dog in a park he was very wary in the ring - I had thought he would be wary of dogs but he was fine with them just wary of strangers.  But with a lot of work at ringcraft with a fabulous chap, lots of patience and building his confidence he was fine.  A lot was down to me being apprehensive thinking he was going to back off so he did - I had to keep myself calmer and be over confident for him to pick up on those signals if that makes sense.

Good luck in getting your dog over this Wendy T.

Rachel, that's why a mentor in your breed (just like we keep harping on about with breeding! ;)) is invaluable.  I reckon that I must get 6-10 emails/telephones every week saying "What do you reckon on.....?".  Learning from someone whose 'been around' :o is one of the most valuable ways of us not all making the same mistakes that have been made before in all areas of life.

I agree that it takes some years to feel your feet.  Hopefully your dog's breeder can help you along the way. :)

Assuming you are not in the very first class of the day, it's also worth watching a judge in action before taking your new puppy in the ring. If you don't like what you see - don't take your puppy in or at least be prepared to avoid the situation where the judge might upset your pup. Better to wait until the next show than to have your puppy put off.

Excellent advice there Anwen - never thought of that!  Although I guess harder as youngsters classes are up first!

Thanks Val, I do have a few mentors but having said that noone has ever said about not going under someone if they are a rough judge!  Just whether they will like our type of build etc.!  And so far only have two judges whom I will not take Max under again ;)

The more local shows I tend to go to whatever as we enjoy the social side - it's just when it's a distance that we might email 'the oracle' (Max's breeder) and ask whether to bother!  With three in the ring this year will be very selective who goes under who - don't think my bank balance will take just entering for fun with three!! ;)

And having said that haven't come across a really rough judge yet either!  Thankfully I suppose.

When Max was getting over his wariness I always let them judges know that he was cautious because of it and they were all great!  So I think there are mainly (hopefully) gentle judges out there.

Feet being found all the time with lots of help!

Thank you Rachelsetters for kind words and advice,I will certainly be trying to be calmer,at the mo,have been taking his bestest toy in the whole wide world out,a bit of really stinky rope tuggy toy,whichI ask people to give to him,hes not very food orientated,but he will take toy,although cautiously,then I tell him what a great dog he is,and we go off and have a game,I am hoping to build it up to where he will happily play with stinky rope with other person,the judge was not actually rough,and at no time did he hurt him,it was kind of his mannerisms,not talking to him,and standing and staring him out,but of course hes at that silly age where everything is a trauma,and boy is he a drama queen hahahaha
Wendy

Glad I was of some help!

I found I had to let Max decide when he was happy to see someone too - not try and push them - the day I knew he was ok was when someone came to the door who he didn't know and he was jumping up (not good training I know) to say hello.  I actually told people to ignore Max most of the time and let him sniff/investigate them - no eye contact from them helps.   When a dog is wary some people can force themselves on the dog which can make things worse.  They can be funny things can't they and the smallest thing can send them to silliness!  As I said I thought Max would be wary of other dogs after he was bitten - but he didn't like people for a while!  I think it was the vets that actually put him off!  This happened in the summer of last year - and we managed to resolve and he was at most of the big champ shows very settled in the ring! and being a setter loves all people! - bit too friend sometimes - has been known to try and kiss the judge!

A friend also had this with her dog at age 2 (who had been in the ring from a puppy) so this can happen to older dogs as well as youngsters - it can be got over so don't worry.  Just be as positive as you can - and lots of encouragement when he is relaxed - just as you are doing!

Is there anyone at ringcraft who will be able to help him get his confidence back - or is he not happy to even go to the hall at the moment?  

I was very lucky in that there was a particular chap who really knew what to do and by the end of 10 mins was much better (not perfect) but we had made some progress! The next week I took him again for match night intending to see how it went and withdrawal if he was not happy - he did back off slightly and I was tempted to call it a day (the judge encouraged me to continue) and was ultra gentle - he won best in match that night!!

Funny how the best toy is always something so very stinky and ragged looking isn't it!

I'm sure you can get over this !  Positive thoughts!! ;)

P.S. Sorry for rambling on - think this is my longest post!

well he loves loves loves Jenny at Ringcraft,and she is very good with them,no messing about,and is absolutely fine with her,but as soon as anyone else approaches then its back to his nervous nelly act,but we do seem to be improving on a daily basis now,I can now walk him up the road and back without full hysterics,and trying to throttle himself,I no longer use a choker on him but plain collar,and I use a longer lead,so as he can sort of approach in his own time if I stop to talk,I think you are right in saying to ignore,as initially I was kind of making silly baby noises to him,and of course that made him more wary,or he was too embarresed to be seen out with me coochie cooing him,ooer hope my one does not jump up at anyone as they would be flattened hahahha,hes a Mastiff,and at one year old is nearly fourteen stones,and yes you are right about some people forcing themselves on him,I know they mean well,but he just goes into total panic,the only thing is(ahem hes not the brightest spark)and he ends up trying to climb into my arms,and yes his rope is awful,and its kind of sticky,but of course if your sitting he is level with your face and so loves to share the stinky experience with you,arghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh,
Wendy

Usually I find you get Lunch but NO expenses!! LOL

I find it astonishing how many judges cannot read a dogs body language.  There are also alot of judges who are heavy handed especially with puppies....  why is this?  A judge should have an understanding of canine body language, I see so many that push frightened dogs to the limit, one day they will get bitten.  My male was ruined by a heavy handed judge at his first CH Show.  I had to ask the judge to 'back off', very politely of course, but my dog was never the same again, i tried everything and spent lots trying to cure his fear but nothing worked, the only thing I didnt and woudnt try was harsh methods, I wasnt that desperate to keep him in the ring. 

I think like you if we hadn't of gotten over it we too would have not carried on showing him - he means more to me than getting rosettes!  And too would not force him into anything - definitely nothing harsh!  To be honest Max wasn't that frightened really just wary and backed off in a 'please don't touch me' way - and within 1 week he was much happier.

Are some breed judges harder than others do you think?  Is it experience or indeed lack of experience I wonder?

Or plain ignorance?  LOL

My dog was put off showing by being handled too roughly

For some reason i still dont understand, one jusdge was VERY rough when examining his, um, 'man parts' :rolleyes:  Since then he hunches, whines and sometimes sits or lies down if he's ever being examined, even at Ringcraft.  He's been neutered because he hated it so much, and obviously wouldn't show well because he was stressed, but i was hoping to be able to show as he used to love it as a puppy! He's still only 15 months but he wont let anyone but me and the people he knows examine him without getting upset  

I think a lot of judges are particularly rough when looking at teeth - my boy can occasionally be a bit reluctant to open up. When I started showing my new girl, I used to say 'it's her first show', or something like that and look warningly at the judge with a 'don't you scare my puppy!' look. :-D

OMG reading this thread really scared me out of my wits! I am going with my puppy for our first show on Saturday, and I had no idea it was such a risk for the puppy. I am so worried now.
It's the International Dog Show in Luxembourg, there are over 4 thousand dogs entered.
My breed (Dobe) will be judged by Maria DEL CARMEN GIL POLO (E). Anybody heard of her?
We'll be in the puppy class as my bitch just turned 6 months old.
Any advice for a nervous beginner (me)?
Katie

Katie - best advice is try not to be too nervous - easier said than done I know - any nerves will transfer to your pup.  Please don't get hung up on rough handling - I have to be honest I have only been showing for less than a year and I haven't come across a rough judge yet.

I can't help you with the judge I'm afraid.

Honestly try not to get nervous and enjoy your day - it's your first show and a biggy by the looks of things so you should enjoy the day even more.

Good luck and have fun!!

:)

Hi Katie,
Good luck on Saturday, I'm sure everything will be just fine!  As said above, try to make it a nice and positive experience for your pup, if you're relaxed, so is you dog :-)
Living in a FCI country, we get lots of judges from other countries at our shows. I know there is no rule without exceptions, but female judges from Mediterranian countries are usually very nice with the dogs, and not particularily interested in teeth ;-)  Male german judges, on the other hand, usually treat the dogs in a rough way. They seem to be especially fond of grabbing the dogs' heads, covering their eyes, and at the same time bending the mouth open, instead of just lifting the lips to check the teeth
Many dogs object to this, even experienced show dogs will sometimes get disturbed by it. Since this is "common knowledge" most people will not show a puppy or sensitive dog under a German judge.
Good luck,
Karen

Thank you, girls, for your words of encouragement! I hope we will do well together, and that I don't goof too much in the ring :)

Katie