I haven't bred yet, but my rough estimates came out at about £1000, and that was when I was hoping to use my own boy, which I probably now won't, as my bitch would be best with something small and pretty, and he's big and masculine!

Welcome Tara!

Thanks Goldmail!

Have given the breakdown on the forum of an average litter in the past, amazing how it adds up, and pretty sure it was in answer to yourself :D

Lets see, stud fees in my breed are the price of a puppy, so £500 to start, my last Hip score was £170 then the eye test fee which is now £33.70, travelling to the stud (or paying their petrol if dog brought to me), bedding, food, things like collars and leads for pups, books on dog care for new owners, and that is before you start feeding them a bag of top quality food a week, puppy formula, meat etc etc etc.

Right here is the breakdown I posted for a small litter in reply to Buldog Bash in October 2005

"Here we go with a littter bred in Sept 2002.  cost me £1129.65 without reckoning in electricity washing powder, disinfectandt/bleach etc.

Stud fee (for our own dog owned in partnership so normally would ahve been double) £250, Travel to stud £50, Vet expenses for birth (eye test, Hip Scoring, Premate tests, Pregnancy diagnosis, post whelping check) £395.46, Wormer £18.02, Registration fees for pups, Tattoos, affix maintenenance fee, £113.00, Food (Puppy formula, Meat, complete) and an advert in dog press £126.71, Miscellaneous items for pups (collars, vet bed, dog care books, new heat pad, vaccinations for one pup) £101.46, £75 donation to rescue.  I haven't counted stationery printer ink, phone calls etc.

The litter was four pups of which one was kept and the 3 others were sold at £500 each.

This is fairly typical. "

Interstingly I have just spent £120 at the Vets for checking if my mated bitch was in whelp, and she wasn't, an inconclusive examinataion at 23 days, scans at 29 and 32 days, and the stud dog lives 300miles away so travelling expenses to for nothing, and have to repeat the eye test before I try again.

Here is the thread I quoted from:
http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/cgi-bin/board/topic_show.pl?pid=551196;hl=Litter%20expenses;hlm=and#pid551196

It is amazing how much these things cost, i hadn't got a clue till my girls breeder said she spends around £2500, this is without complications.
But you could tell no expence was spared my girl came kennel club registered (of course), with six weeks free insurance, first inoculation, wormed, frontlined, inoculation leaflet, worming chart, diet sheet, copies of parents hip scores, eye tests, pedigrees, puppy food pack, care pack with all information on hips, elbows, eyes,teeth, ears, fleas, worms etc, Socilization, exercise and training pack, microchipped and lifetime back up and support.

If you ask me all puppies should go to their new homes like this, or have i just been lucky? :))

Well I consider that you send the pup off with everything that maximises it's chance of settling in to it's new home with all it's early needs taken care of.

Hi Brainless

Sorry if that was written wrong, i could never breed from my baby (best left to the experts) i couldn't cope with all the stress lol

Thats what my Holly came with, ( i am just a very proud owner) :)

I was agreing with you that what you ahd with Holly is what a good breeder would expect to provide as part of their ongoing lifelong service.

Hi
I haven't been on this forum for years, maybe 3 years I can't quite remember. Its nice to read someone elses lay out of costs for having litters (If done correctly) People forget all the little things that add up to huge amounts of money. Its a scary read !! and one I know all about. Its not just cost though its time and patience and giving up hours days for people to visit and long long phone calls with the new owners.

Nice to be back and am reading through these resent posts with much interest. I think you were on here all that time ago when I used to post frequently. Ive had a house move and bred a few litters last couple of years so been really busy, I'm having a quiet spell (Don't tell anyone, they will find me something to do lol

Hubby doesnt see the point in paying out another £500

We are quite well off ourselves hubby owns his own business

If that is the case then £500 for another Labrador should be no problem to find?    If she was bred in Ireland you may well find she is registered with the IKC in that case she will need to be registered with the KC here before she can be mated and have subsequent pups registered.  But I echo what everyone else has written , it is a lot easier to buy in.  Not all bitches are good mums, pups can be rejected, trodden on, fade away.....

you are including one off costs such as hip scoring and eye testing, you dont have these done every single time you breed a litter do you? No, you have them done once before breeding and then this cost is absorbed from the profit made from your first litter. The costs you are quoting are ridiculous and you are attempting to suggest that no profit is made from breeding dogs which is tosh otherwise very few people would be doing it

The original poster is intending to breed just one litter so of course all the hip scoring etc will be included in the cost

Mind you many "pet"breeders start off wanting just one litter & then another & another & another..........................................Mainly because they like having puppies & of course if they are raised on the cheap the"profit"too

One of my ex bosses was just like this & he never bothered to register any of the puppies & used a dog up the road & pupped his bitch every season. He never bothered with health tests(why should he he was not a breeder & only producing pets) In 6 years his bitch had 10 litters & was dead at 7 1/2 worn out by the litters. was he bothered Nope as he kept a bitch puppy & proceeeded to breed from her from a year old encouraged by his(local celeb)vet & has a litter from a g daughter of his bitch as I type the mum is just 13 months old & was bred to another dog up the road. The breed-yep Labrador Retriever ! This guy is not a stupid man & has a very responsible job & yet he sees nothing wrong in churning out puppies en masse He now has four bitches & kennels & breeds 8 times a year He gets a licence from the council because his kennels are immaculate-however the quality of the dogs leaves much to be desired & guess what after Crufts he's starting to breed X breeds as endorsed by BF & the GDBA

you are including one off costs such as hip scoring and eye testing, you dont have these done every single time you breed a litter do you?
Actually yes - eye testing IS done yearly for many eye conditions  & some eye conditions also need the puppies tested before selling them.

This isn't strictly true - maybe ethically but not in most folks practise. The stipulation for most breed club puppy registers (because lets face it the KC doesn't ask for ANY health tests to be done so they are the only benchmark we have....) is for the sire and dam to hold a valid clear eye certificate at the time of mating. So therefore, to be realistic, if one is breeding every year from a bitch (unlikely and undesireably) then yes, yearly she will need a new certificate, but, like most f us, every 2 years or even less, then one only tests at the clinic closest to the date of mating - or basically, before the mating.

I know you chaps are doing a sterling and thorough job in trying to make the idea of this young lady breeding her bitch as undesierable and expensive as possible, but just had to set this straight because some puppy buyers these days pick up this sort of thing and then think perfectly ethical breeders are doing something wrong in not having a 'bang bang bang' collection of yearly eye certificates.

Of course for a stud dog its entirely different and his needs keeping up to date constantly because one never knows when he will be called upon.
Di

Yes, I was talking ethically because I was talking about responsible breeders :) It's not very responsible to test the mother & not her daughter, mother or sister. Most puppy buyers are happy if you tell them the parents have current clear certificates (even if they haven't got a clue what you are talking about :rolleyes:) . Maybe it's just one more difference between a "breeder" & a "responsible breeder" & why so many of us don't sign up to the Accredited breeder scheme. I get a little fed up when I'm told " I don't know where that came from ....."

Anwen... I think I undestand your reply - but I was speaking of responsible breeders and not just plain old 'breeders'. Stud dogs have certificates valid all the time, but with bitches its a little different in practise because of not hammering litter after litter out from them so small chunks of time can lapse betwee them.
Most of us get a clinic that is convenient, usually attached to a championship show, and go there with everyone of course, but many very responsible breeders, including myself on many occasions oftej have a year when a bitch doesn' have an eye cert. because i'm not mating her then.
Ideal worlds of course are slightly different to reality on occasion.

one can be too fanatical when one is breedig for the WHOLE dog and not just one part of it. Of course you didn't say otherwise, thats just a general comment when people get overly sensitive about some parts of some health issues.
Di

For a first litter you would indeed include the cost of hip-scoring because you wouldn't breed without it. Eye-testing has to be done every year, so would be included each time. Some breeds require the puppies to be tested for certain conditions before they're sold, so those costs would also be included.

Yes litters can be reared on the cheap - puppy farmers do it all the time - but nobody in their right mind would recommend that route.

your costs quoted are still way overboard, you must be deliberately buying the most expensive food, equiptment etc so you can justify breeding to yourself and anyone who thinks you make money, but it doesnt wash with me. its easy to rear a perfectly good healthy litter without the expenses some people are suggesting and just because a litter of pups has had lots of money spent, does not guarantee you a quality puppy. The most important expense in a litter of pups is the correct feeding of mum and pups and even this does not cost the amounts some people are quoting. If its sympathy you are after I have none as there are lots of sensible breeders out there who can breed a litter without exceeding their budget. :-)

Most expensive food? Not, just a middle-of-the-range commercial, and fresh meat. 8+ medium-sized puppies eat a lot, and of course their mum willr equire about four times her usual quantity of food while she's feeding them.

And no, we're not after 'sympathy' - why should we be? Nobody's exceeding their budget, because the sensible ones put the money aside first. :rolleyes: It's called facing reality.

You are generalising Bulldog bash!!
How can you say the quoted feeding costs are too high? There is so much variation in feeding needs between breeds - a litter of Rottie pups would eat any one out of house & home whereas a litter of Poms would not - but a litter of Poms would probably only be one or 2 pups.
Returning to testing, I don't think any one has mentioned the fact that a responsible breeder not only has the breeding bitch tested, but all her relatives that they own (& some that they don't), whether they are to be bred from or not, in order to gain as true a picture as possible. In the case of eye testing that's probably at least £100.00 per year - every year, whether breeding or not.

Ooh I forgot about the eye testing for the non breeders.

OK Say everything panned out well and you did make a cracking good profit of, say £500 and I defy you to say anything more is remotely possible in my breed of modest prices and moderate litters.  Thats 2 months work, minimum, not counting any days leading up to delivery when they could come at any moment so you are tied to the house or any weeks after if a purchasers lets you down or any time in the future you spend sorting out purchasers problems or even rehoming needs.  The first couple of weeks are about 18 hours awake and 6 hours asleep but not continuous ones :rolleyes: then if you are lucky a bit of a lull to about say 14-16 hours depending on how good a dam it is, then back to 18 hours as pups become more independant of Mum.
I'm too weary thinking about it to work out just how many hours you work for that 500 quid but I'm pretty damn sure you would get a considerably better rate in some non stressful job such as supermarket stacking or domestic cleaning :)

>your costs quoted are still way overboard

Okay, let's do the sums from 1999. I won't count the tests the bitch had to make sure she was suitably clear of hereditary conditions or the Affix maintence.

Ovuchecks (2): £180.85
Stud fee: £275
Petrol to stud: £25
Whelping box (homemade): £29.47
Post-whelping Vet check: £112.93
Puppy pen: £80.75
Puppy wormer: £15.29
Registration: £55
Bowls:£11.25
Puppy milk: £31.90
Puppy food: £32.78
Litter hearing tests: £112.25
Breed club advert: £10
Sales contract pad: £4
Puppies' pre-sale vet check: £120

That comes to a grand total of £1096.47. You'll notice I haven't included the food for the mother, nor any costs for my time, phone calls to propective purchasers, extra heating ...

As I say, that was in 1999. Inflation will have since raised the price. Of course, if I dispensed with the medical checks and take a chance on the health of bitch and puppies, and feed them scraps off the floor I could certainly cut costs. :rolleyes:

Oops! I forgot the cost of ID-ing the pups before they left. Add £35 to the total, taking us to £1131.47.

my stud fee was £500 and this year will be £600 and the petrol to stud was £100. Registration was £125 (big litter) plus £108 docking/dew claws and i would think time off work for 24/7 care (which i couldnt have done without my 21 year old son taking it in turns with me) at least £500.

I feed a quality food, but one that is reasonably priced for that quality (Arden Grange), I use a good quality Puppy milk (but not the most expensive), I use frozen meat bought in bulk, so again less expensive than if I bought from Supermarket or Pet shop.

Bedding I buy at the prices at shows, so half the price of Pets at Home or the like.

No I stint on nothing the litter needs, but I am careful to get good value for money on what I buy.

For example I buy wormer by the litre at £55, which at the vets price would cost me £13 per 100ml.  It has several years shelf life so the 200ml I use on average per litter costs me £11 instead of £26.

Perfectly acceptable to save money where you can but never to cut corners.

I would love you to add up the breakdown I gave you any cheaper than I did.

Personally I think that if you wish to try and help improve your breed then it does cost a lot of money.  The more ambitious you are (i.e. wanting to improve the quality of animals within your kennels, the animals within your country, the animals within different countries, the animals within all countries) the more it will cost you.

As a beginner if I was to breed I would be looking at improving the animals that I have first of all.

First of all I would have to do a lot of research to find the best puppy that I could (I could say the best bitch, but then I could be talking silly figures.  For example it may surprise some people to know this, but I was speaking to someone the other week and they said that GSDS that have been given a VA grade in the seiger show can command prices of £40 - £80,000.  He said that other GSDS have been known to go for a lot more, and he quoted one bitch that sold over 10 years ago for a 1/4 of a million pounds).  On average I think a quote of £1500 - £3000 is about average for a puppy of show potential.

I would do this by visiting shows, doing my research on the net, and buying my breed books so that I can research pedigrees (these cost approximately £15 - £35 each, and I would say that if you had the first 15 years worth it would give you a good idea of existing lines), and books written about my breed (two of the most recommended that I know cost £150 + each)

Then I would book a puppy, probably visit it a couple of times

Then I will have the usual KC transfer fee, vaccination, worm / flee products, socialisation, ring craft / training classes to attend / feeding on a premium food / crate for inside, maybe a kennel for summer months, usual things that are used to spoil a dog = treats / comfy bed / fancy collars and leads, etc.

I would also insure my pup (costs me £15 now, but I used to pay £25 + with the KC)

Then I would want to start show my pup.  This would not only help me to get more experienced people's opinions on her failings and good points, but it will show me what nice lines are out there for when I would decide to breed.  It would also teach me a lot for when I do have something that has a lot to offer the breed.  As a newbie I would be doing this for fun, and as a learning curve.  But if I was an established breeder I would want to be showing other breeders what my lines were in a hope that my dogs were displaying some conformational advantage which other breeders could use in an attempt to improve their own dogs (and thus the overall breed will improve slightly).  I could also further distinguish my lines by trying to obtain the following awards JW, CH, SHCM, INT CH. CH of ... insert country ...., and if it was a working breed the working trials qualifications, WT CH, FT CH (does this stand for field trial ), SCH etc.  All of these would need me to go to training clubs unique to them, and shows to compete for the award = more petrol and entry costs, etc.

I would say on average we have 25 CH shows (a couple of classes plus a catalogue can sot about £31 per show x 25 shows and this equals £775) about 150 miles + from my house (300 miles x 25 x £20 per 100 miles costs £1500, plus at least 1 set of tires = £240, plus the usual £100 repairs to my car due to high mileage, plus the dog crates I need for the back, plus the more dogs I have the more likely I need to buy a van just for showing costs maybe up to £8,000), and I would want to go to at least 9 open shows probably up to 100 miles from my house (costs £360 for petrol and then at a couple of classes + a catalogue about £81). 

Then I would want to health check my girl.  Hips and elbows cost about £300 - £400, eyes ????, haemophilia ????, a test for furoncoloneis (sp?) ????? , , etc.

If my pup failed to pass her tests I would then keep her as a pet, and start again with the above costs.

So far:

Cost of pup: £3000
KC transfer: £12
Visit pup twice and pick it up from over 300 miles away = £360
Crate: £70
Kennel: £400
Bowls / lead & collar at 2 different sizes: £70
Nice bed: £40
Vet bed: £20
Toys: £60
Vaccination: £30 x 2 years = £60
Microchip: £25
Flees: £50 x 2 years = £100
Worming: £16 x 2 years = £32
Food: £400 x 2 years = £800
Insurance: £180 x 2 years = £360
Socialisation trips into town on trains and stuff: £30
Club membership x 4 clubs (and yes I do go to 4) = £80 x 2 years = £160
Weekly club membership entry fees = (£3 x 52) + £1 x 12 = £168 x 2 years = £336
Petrol to clubs = (30 miles x 52) + (10 miles x 12) = £336 x 2 years = £672
2 Breed books & 2 confirmation books: £350
Breed books: £300
Videos on confirmation of my breed and judging it and KC DVD: £115
Petrol to CH shows for 1 year: £1500
Entry to CH shows for 1 year: £775
Petrol to open shows for 1 year: £360
Entry to open shows for 1 year: £81
4 tires: £240
Dog cages for car: £900
Car repairs due to high mileage: £100
(I won't include the £8000 I want for my van I need especially for my dogs:rolleyes:)
Membership to Champdogs: £29.95 ;-)
KC affix: £75
KC gazette (needed for show dates): £17 (?)
Hip scoring & elbow scoring & eye test: £350
DNA test: £60???

If I was an established breeder I would also by law need a licence and to pay a vet to check my premises (I have been told this is after having had 7 litters .... well what I mean is I know someone who has had about this amount of litters over a few years and they were asked to get one ... so please do not quote me on that)

But as you said some of these costs I would incur for keeping a pet, and some I only have to pay once.  However I would be showing my dog still if I thought that she warranted CC's or more CC's and even with 6 months for getting over pregnancy half of my showing costs is still £1528 every year!

So now for my breeding costs that I would have to pay every time:

Premate test, since a lot of stud dog owners are now wanting them: £70 + (4 x £30 repeat tests) = £190
Antibiotics before & after mating & vet consolation fee = £30 + £21 x 2 = £102
Hepatitis jab: £80
Stud fee: £500 - £1000 +
(Lots of people go abroad with their dogs in certain breeds: Pet passport £300?, flight £200?, airport parking ???, petrol to airport ????, pet carrier ???, car hire ????, petrol in other country ???, hotel £150 ?, vet to see bitch before re-entering country and flee and tick stuff £40?)
But if I wanted a UK dog I would go on at least 2 x 600 mile round trips = £240
Scan at 4 weeks to see if pregnant: £28
(X-ray in some breeds later on: £80 + Planned c-section in some breeds later on = £900)
Increased food + ordered pup food at approx. 7 bags + 1 bag to give puppy owners a weeks supply when the food costs me about £45 per 15 kilos.  I did feed natural meat at one point, but new house had a fully fitted kitchen and I never got round to installing electric in our garage.  Nutrition can affect how a puppy develops and thus I would never squander on this.  The food I picked produced the best results in my dogs. = £360 (this does not include the usual food that I would feed my girl if she was not pregnant!)
Whelping box would be built new every time for hygiene reasons: £40 for materials (not including the fact that I don't own things like drills, and the only reason I would want such stuff is to produce a puppy box, but I won't include this price)
Vet bed for crate: £30 (this would be £80+ if I used pet shop prices, and I know because I bought some silly squares of it for my last puppy a few times lol)
Puppy toys to stimulate pups (replaced each time for hygiene reasons): £30
Vet check for mother and pups when born, and vets usually charge a consultation fee twice: £42
(may do this again when pups are older = several vet fees = approx. £80)
Antibiotic shot for mother: £25
Puppy milk and new bottles for any weakling babies: £20
(won't include weighing scales, and whelping books:rolleyes:)
Flee cover for pups: £50
(some owners give 6 months flee cover and this would cost an additional £50)
Worming liquid: £30
Goats milk, ready break, honey for babies for 1 week: £13
Register pups x 6 pups: £62
KC pup register: £20
Magazine advert: £30
(Won't include internet subscription, even though I only ever use it for dog things, and without it I could never advertise :-)  )
Tattoo pups, as it ensures that owner never looses pups and if they do dump them in a shelter they should hopefully always come back to the breeder: £67
(Some people may Microchip pups: £150)
(some people may give first vaccination, but this is a personal preference thing, a guess is that vets would still charge the normal £30 per pup = £180 + the petrol to get to the vets lol)
Puppy book for each pup, as it helps owners know how to look after babies: £30
Kong for each pup @ 5 & toy @ 3 & stain and puppy remover or puppy pads @ 5, as this helps you know that puppies have things that will help them and their owners as they settle in and grow up = £78
Socialising pups: £70
(Heating on during the night, and sometimes a supervised fan on during the day) = ?????
(1 week missed pay for both you and your partner, as young pups may need 2 hour feeds and this can be too hard to do on your own: for people who work normal maybe £200 for 1 person, or someone with their own business maybe £500 +)
Extra phone calls: £15

All of the above includes a perfect scenario where everything goes right, and none of the pups die.  It also does not include the fact that some owners want you to keep their pups a couple of weeks longer due to holidays, things going wrong with potential owners and them no longer being able to keep a pup (and thus you having to feed and vaccinate it and socialise it and worm it until another owner comes along etc.), potential owners deciding that a pup is a lot harder work than they remembered and thus you getting a 20 week old pup back that has not been socialised enough so that you have to keep it and train it or only let it go to a very experienced home, etc.

Using a UK stud at £500, no c-section / x-ray, and no microchips + only 1 person loosing £200 for 1 weeks worth of pay my costs would be:

£2511.95

If I didn't have to have a premate test they would be:

£2321.95

The above did not take into consideration if the bitch did not catch, and thus a repeat mating, or the bitches normal living costs for that year.

In a small breed my food costs may go down, but I would probably need a planned c-section for a toy and thus gaining an extra £80 + from food to loose an extra £900 + x-ray doesn't really look that good. ;-)

6 pups x £500 each = £3000

But as I would more than likely be keeping one pup it would actually be:

5 pups x £500 each = £2500

With the premate test I would just about break even.  Without it I would have an extra £178.05 to put towards the normal costs of looking after my bitch.
If I was lucky and had more pups I would use this money to go towards the costs that I mentioned above about keeping and showing a puppy. :rolleyes:

None of the above includes all of the time and hard work that I would have to do, or the 100's of hours of research (knowing my standard and lines inside out).

Personally I try and not think about how much I spend on my dogs.  I already know it is a stupid amount of money!  I always say to people who meet me before I got dogs I would think nothing of spending a couple of grand on the latest new gadget that caught my eye, but since having my babies despite a huge increase in my partners wage we just never seem to have that sort of money lying around.  Why?  Because it is either being spent on the dogs, being saved up for a foreseen dog cost, or a bit is being kept by just in case I see something that catches my eye so much that I just have to try and own another bit of magic. :-)

I am sure that all of the above costs could be lowered.  I mean if you were not looking to improve your breed, didn't want to pay all the vets and feeding costs to prevent your puppies development from being affected, didn't care about what the behaviour or health of your puppies will be, and just wanted to forget any produced puppies then I am sure that the below figures would be more accurate.  However I think that you would have to view your bitch and puppies as nothing other than pound notes:

Stud fee: 1 pup back or a free stud dog that you have been given = £10 x 12 months of feeding costs = £120
Cheap food: £60
Board up to corner off washing room, and a couple of old blankets: £10
KC register pups: £72

Sell pups at 5 weeks of age for £350 each: £2100

Profit = £1838

Repeat mating aspc:

Overall profit in 1 year: £3676

Mated bitch at 6 months of age and sold them unregistered, as soon as bitch is 1 have 2 litters a year, and then sell bitch at 4 years of age, or keep having unregistered litters until she dies.

However I will leave it to others to state what is thought of breeders like this :'-( :-(

... although I will just add that in a country that is becoming more sue happy you would be running a risk ;-)

Interesting breakdown however £3,000 for a show potential GSD ??? or 8 week old puppy of any breed Wow

Tattoo pups, as it ensures that owner never looses pups and if they do dump them in a shelter they should hopefully always come back to the breeder: £67

Hm Lets see litter reg £20 cost tattooing per puppy £7. If breeder sends in all the transfer of ownership forms of the puppies they sell & the new owners pay the full transfer fee as part of the puppy price-tattooing fee is recouped by deducting it from the transfer of ownership fees & breeder receives litter registration fee back so if breeder retains one puppy tattooing cost is £7 !

BTW I still think breeding when done right is not a money making scheme(unless of course you charge £3,000 a puppy)

LOL soz never thought about tattoo money coming back :rolleyes: .... but it was very early in the morning when I replied lol :-)

Also where did I get £67 from lol I think that I did it for 7 pups + £25 fee ... as I said early morning sums lol :-) .....

Im sure not all show pups cost this, but from my experience a lot seem to from the best breeders.  I only used that as a rough figure to show that show pups can cost a LOT more than some people think that we paid for them.  Especially as GSDS only cost about £500 - £600 from very good breeders.

I do know of one very good GSD breeder who sells her show pups more around the £800 mark, but I am unsure as to whether or not this is the pick of the litter. 

The prices that I have been quoted range from £1500 - £3000, and I know of another person who expected to pay £1500 - £2000 for a show puppy, and I think that they did pay somewhere in between those two prices. 

I was speaking to another person at a show the other day and she paid £1500 for another breed which usually only costs about £500 as well, and another show person a few months ago said she paid £2500 for a pup that usually costs about a £1000.  Im sure there are some nice breeders out there with much lower prices, but I seem to meet all of the expensive ones lol :-)

(unless of course you charge £3,000 a puppy)

LOL I agree, but I suppose when you look at the fact that those that charge these prices have been showing for decades I suppose in the long run if you added up all of their costs and puppy sales they never really made any money.  :rolleyes:

As I said before it is best just to hand over the plastic and not to look at the amounts you keep signing away :-)

I would dispute with you the cost of foundation stock.

In my own breed show potential or pet puppy, they all cost the same.  You generally won't find anyone willing to sell you a sucessful adult, unless there is a breavement, or change in owners circumstances and even then it would be more on the basis of a donation, and many champions have gone to live with freinds in a breed in their retirement, even when at an age to breed from, and continue to be shwon.

I am always hoping that one of my potential new owners would like to get involved in the breed and try my best to steer them to a promising puppy, and sometimes it works out well (sometimes your are frustrated when lovely pups never see teh ring, as the4 owners change their mind about showign,at other times a nice pup that went purely as a Pet gets shown just the once and the bug bites and they then go all the way), and at other times they have a respectable animal that tey may try to get soemthing better from, same chance as the breeder takes themselves when choosing an 8 week old pup, especially if they do not run on but keep regardless.

Investing in the breeds future by importing, and even exporting all come into this.

I do know that in some breeds that finding very good adults is like finding a hen that lays the golden egg.  I also know that in my toy breed trying to find a breeder who doesn't want to keep all of their great puppies can be even harder ;-) ..... I would dread to try and get an adult as I know that none of the really good breeders would part with their beloved babies in a million years :-)

I am also positive that some breeders charge the same amount for show and pet puppies.  I have seen this is some breeds.  If it is so in your breed then newcomers are very lucky!!!!!!!!

However I assumed that if it happened in 1 breed then it wasn't isolated to this breed only

In GSDS I have frequently seen great dogs for sale, and others that could be sold if you offered the right amount, and other breeders who will breed and run on two puppies, and if they both look very promising at about 12 months of age then they look for a show home so that both can be in the ring.

I also think that such prices aren't usually advertised.  I think it is more of a case of you approaching a breeder and asking if there are any planned litters.  They say "yes they are and the pick will cost this much"

I also think that such puppies would not be sold to the general public.  They are usually only allowed to go to homes where the person has already proved that they are VERY interested in the show ring.

I think that such people know that you only want their lines and therefore they can get away with charging so much.  Believe me I do not relish paying their prices, especially when a puppy with show potential in a few months time could never ever be shown and win.  However when I see something that I like this is the risk that I have to take. 

Without my own established kennel what else am I supposed to do?  I would never consider purchasing a puppy that cost less from a breeder whose lines I did not dribble about .....  ;-)

does not guarantee you a quality puppy

Personally I always recommend people looking for a puppy to look at how much their breeder has 'spent'.

This is because:

Ensuring health costs money
Ensuring that puppies have the correct nutrition costs money
Ensuring that a weak puppy does not starve to death costs money
Ensuring that a breeder has done their best to create something that looks like the image you associate with the breed you love so much costs money
Ensuring that puppies are socialised enough costs money
Ensuring that you find the best puppy owners costs money (the more you speak the more likely you are to find the ones that you are happy with)
Ensuring that your puppy is never on death row costs money
Ensuring that the mother does not suffer costs money

I was brought up never to think about money.  It was just there to be spent.  However unfortunately this is one of the few things that I think that you must have money to do properly.  It would be lovely to breed and all puppies to look like beautiful examples of their breed, never be affected by ill health, to grow up perfectly, and to live until their dying days with a forever home.  But like everything in life nothing is that simple.

If a breeder wants to produce the above then they have to be prepared to have deep pockets.  If they aren't prepared to do it then they never really cared as much about their puppies as they claim to do.

No one can ever guarantee anything in life, and with puppies this is especially true.  However I can guarantee that you are more likely to find a physiological and psychological healthy puppy that looks like the image you associate with your breed if you go to a breeder who spends a lot of money rearing their puppies than one that does not.

sensible breeders out there who can breed a litter without exceeding their budget

As I stated in my 1st post on this topic this is 100% correct.  But they are doing it at what cost to their puppies and their breed?

deliberately

Personally I deliberately choose to pay for the best for my dogs.  They mean the world to me, and I do not know where I would be without them.  Why would I deliberately not pay for them to be as healthy as possible, and for them to have the best life that they can have? ;-)

I would also like to add that my food only costs £45 per 15 killos, and I think that this is quite cheap :rolleyes: I have a toy who is on a very spoilt and natural diet because it has been the only thing that I have found to suit her.  I would dread to think how much she would cost to feed if I had found the same if she was a much bigger dog

I tried all the different food brands with my dogs from very cheap to very expensive, and I found the one that they are on to be the best.

Well yes hip scoring is done once, but eye testing is annual.  That litter does not include the one off costs of puppy pens, whelping box, kennel for outside protection of pups once they are spending time outdoors etc etc.

Also the Hip scoring saving on another litter would be taken up in the extra £250 for a normal stud fee, further distance travelled etc.

Swings and roundabouts, but I would expect a litter to cost me £1200 - £1600 with all the variables. 

I would normally only breed from a bitch two or three times, so even sharing the Hip scoring accross two or three litters adds in extra cost.

Also, elbow scoring requires four xrays being taken, which is why elbows cost considerably more than just having hips done.

The costs you are quoting are ridiculous and you are attempting to suggest that no profit is made from breeding dogs which is tosh otherwise very few people would be doing it

We don't all charge Bulldog prices.......... :rolleyes:

I don't think Bulldog Bash does either, not the KC recognised breed anyway.

We also don't breed for profit, but for the love of our breeds, so try to cover some of our costs and if a small profit helps defray the other costs of our hobby (show entries etc) we count ourselves fortunate.