How will i know when my labrador is on heat? male dogs seem more intrested in her than normal and she has been humping my other female dog we have been thinking about breeding her the vet said its best to wait for the 3rd heat she has. Does anyone use those dog knickers as i saw some and have been thinking about getting her those.

Jessica, I'm presuming this will be her first season (heat)? generally you will find that her vulva swells slightly for a week to ten days before coming into season, so she looks slightly 'puffy' behind, and then she will lose little droplets of blood whe she comes in to let *you* know she has come in.

The fact that fellas seem more interested in her may be a sign she is coming towards coming in, but if you have seen no blood its unlikely she is in yet. As bitches mature their hormones have odd days and they can smell gorgeous to guys sometimes without being in season.
To see if she is, put a white bedsheet over the basket, duvet or sofa where she normally sleeps. If there are no blood stains or brownish 'flecks' on it next morning she is not in. Some bitches clean themselves well and you can go days without seeing very much, BUT when they are asleep and when they first wake up and move about they lose a little now and then and the sheet can't hide that!

They don't lose a great deal of blood. The pants, whilst growing in popularity would not be my cup of tea for a non pretentious breed such as the one we own. If you like them use them but they are awkward, expensive and look daft! ;-) Also a young bitch may well tug them off...I can't see any of my labs wearing them for more than two minutes without using it as a challenge to rip them to shreds!

Just keep a damp cloth handy and restrict her from the furniture - OR put a nice big old blanket over where she hops up and wash it once a week whilst she is in season. No need to worry about great gushes. Dogs do not lose as much as women usually do at one time - bear in mind they are in season for 28 days or more, its pretty well spread out.

But do use the sheet trick to see if she is in. Then keep her away from males of any sort for at least 20 days, then on a lead and out of peoples way as much as possible for the last 7 - 10 days. She will bleed for about 8 days then the discharge will start to diminish. Do NOT think she is now out of season. This time when the ischarge goes 'clear' or 'milky' is when she would be ready to mate and is ultra ultra attractive to males. Absolutely keep her in a secure garden and house then and do not take her out even in the dead of the night, dogs loose can come and mate her literally in seconds because she may be willing to let them! At least the rest of her season they might try but she will, at least sit down or tell them off. Do not upset males by taking her out near them whilst she is in season.

Di

Hi
Just to add a few things. Some bitches bleed for the entire 21 days, and you will need to keep her away from males for a full 4 weeks to play safe. The bitch pants, which are for containing the blood loss, you can buy from here:
<a class='url' href='http://www.caninechemists.com/prodinfo.asp?number=PANTS'>http://www.caninechemists.com/prodinfo.asp?number=PANTS</a>

If you are going to breed from her it isn't simply a case of waiting for her third season, she must also be hip scored, elbow scored, eye tested by an eye specialist, and have good show or working results to prove her worth.

Thanks for all the advice, and thanks for the link if i buy her dog knickers is she safe to go near male dogs as i read somewhere they are ok because the male dog cant 'get' to them so to speak. We've had a new sofa so i think we will put a old throw over on it.

Where can she be hip, elbow and eye tested. one of her parents was a show dog and she is really friendly and intelligent shes learnt loads already the kids have been taking her to training classes they did a 12week course with her and got a certificate at the end and are now doing the next one.

>i buy her dog knickers is she safe to go near male dogs as i read somewhere they are ok because the male dog cant 'get' to them so to speak.

No, no no! They won't be able to stop a dog and bitch determined to mate! Don't take chances. When you know she's in season don't even allow her into your own garden unattended.

Hips and elbows can be x-rayed and scored from 12 months of age - eye tests will need doing every year. She is KC registered, isn't she?

So do i have to take her in the garden on a lead or just go out with her?
She came with a folder with all kinds of paperwork stuff in one with a list of familys names another form with her parents names on a insurance form and a thing about what she had been fed on. Is that KC registered?

If your garden's secure then it'll be adequate for you just to go out with her. Remember that even small dogs can scale 6-foot walls and you don't want her to meet the local mangy Romeo waiting for her!

You've been given a diet sheet and a pedigree, but not necessarily registration documents. If she's KC registered you'll have been given a form to sign and send to the Kennel Club to transfer her into your ownership.

Add to the clinical tests the Optigen DNA test for PRA your bitch could be clinically clear of PRA but could be a carrier & produce affected puppies

If your bitches parents have been DNA tested & are both clear she would not need to be tested, but you should have been given a copy of the Clear certificate from Opitgen for the parents & if one is a carrier you should have been given a copy of the test result

Do all these tests need doing so they can be registered, if i dont want to register them and have them just as pets do they still need them?

no, these tests need doing before you breed from her. if she is not registered and you dont want to register her, then imo you definately shouldnt breed from her anyway.

becky

Be warned................Silent seasons have no blood but they can be mated and have puppies, the boys know!!!!
Gail :) :) :)

They're all essential because it's all to ensure the puppies are born healthy -and everyone wants their pet to be healthy whether it is a pet only, a pet and show dog or a pet and working dog.

No, the tests need doing to find out if she's healthy enough to breed from.

whats a silent season? all very confused now. I will get her health tested at the vets when she is a year old we would keep a puppy thats one of the reasons we wanted to breed her and we would want our puppy to be healthy.

Your vet will be able to take the x-rays but they'll need to be sent to the Kennel Club for scoring. Unless your vet is a ophthalmic specialist he won't be able to do the eye-tests - they have to be done by a specialist.

This article will help you understand what's involved in producing a litter. You'll need to be aiming to be like a Responsible Breeder on the left. :)

And if you work through this site,
http://www.geocities.com/bluegracepwd/vb1.html,
it gives an idea of what could happen.

Firstly, please do think about other male dogs when your bitch is in season.  Just because she has knickers it may not stop them mating, and it simply not fair to entire male dogs to take her out when in season.   The health tests mentioned are specialist tests, and need to be done by specialists (your vet can take the xrays, but they still need to be sent away).

Please rethink your breeding plans Jessica - there are far too many labradors being bred already, and far too many in rescue.... and as you seem unsure whether your lab is even registered, much less of good enough quality, it would be better to buy in another puppy when you are ready.

We would really like one related to her and the kids have got their hearts set on a kimmie baby. Hubby doesnt see the point in paying out another £500 when we can get all we could want from kim as she is the best dog we have ever had.

Fellas!! :rolleyes: :D. 
There's much more to breeding than that Jessica.  The pup that you keep may well take after your bitch's dam or sire, or even the dam or sire of the stud dog that you use, and may well not be anything like  your kimmie.

& breeding may end up costing you lots more than £500

Hip scoring-£150
Eye testing-£27
DNA test-£100+
Stud fee to suitable health tested dog £ 300 +

Thats over £500  without vet bills, food, whelping box, bedding, etc etc

Add to this that your bitch will be put at risk by breeding from her & you could(as has happened to very experienced friends of mine) lose her, the puppies or both during the pregnancy/wheliping

Then you have to be able to find maybe 10 + homes for the puppies your are not keeping & be able to take any/all of the back at any time during their lives because as a breeder you are responsible for all the puppies you breed for the whole of their lives

I stopped breeding when I took back a 7 year old GSD I bred who had become surplus to requirements & two Beardies that I had bred that had both been badly treated(one had tyo be PTS-which is what really finished me)These three dogs had been carefully placed in homes with people who had waited for months for one of my bitches puppies too

Did you know that 45,000 labradors are bred & registered with the KC(in the UK) every year & to this total you can add an equal number that are not registered ! & their rescues are full to overflowing. That's 90,000 labradors a year

Don't forget elbow scoring, should definitely be done in a Labrador, my vet charges roughly £400 to do hip and elbows at the same time.

And this is one of the things that can skip a generation and reappear!  Even if kimmie has good eyes, hips and elbows, her ancestors may not have and Jessica (because she wouldn't know) will be producing pups with problems!

Oops thanx Marianne I knew I had missed something essential

I'm so glad I don't breed anymore I was heart broken when I had to have the young dog PTS he was only 15 months old & they had beaten him to a pulp :(

Silent seasons are bitches on heat but no blood they still swell up and are most definately furtile.If the only reason you are mating your bitch is to get a Kimmie relative then I`d go back to your breeder.....you could end up losing your bitch at the worst!!:(
Gail :) :) :)

We bought Kim over from Ireland with us as we lived over there for 5years and my hubbys job then bought us back over here. she was from a breeder over there and it isnt really practical to go over there just to get another one. Id make sure all the puppies found lovely homes and check the owners all breeders started somewhere, right?

all breeders started somewhere, right?

Certainly.  But responsible breeders usually have an experienced breeder, with years of knowledge of pedigrees and lines behind them, to mentor the new breeder so that they don't make any awful mistakes at best, and lose their beloved bitch at worst.  These things don't always go easily and often human intervention is necessary.
Labs have health problems, as do most breeds, which can skip a generation and come out in the pups again.  If you don't know the dogs behind kimmie, then you wouldn't know anything about these. 
Also there were 45,000 labradors registered last year and so finding good homes for pups is not easy.  Nor is having 10, 12 week old puppies running around when they have nowhere to go!

Most definately we all started somewhere .......as long as you know what the risks and downfalls are, the pros and good times are a doddle as anyone who has bred know.There can be a lot of tears and heartache along the way. I started with 110% support from my foundation bitchs` breeder and bought her with that in mind.Does your Kimmies breeder support you with your plans for her?
Gail :) :) :)

Sorry SNAP Val........posting at the same time lol
Gail :) :) :)

At least Jessica can see that it's not just one person who thinks this way! ;)

"all breeders started somewhere, right? "

Yes, but they don't jump in at the deep end....

What lines is your bitch from? - if she is well bred, it should not be a problem finding another puppy from similar lines.  I'm sorry, but as someone who does NOT breed, but does help with labrador rescue, I cannot condone the type of breeding that you are contemplating.

What lines is your bitch from? - if she is well bred, it should not be a problem finding another puppy from similar lines.

I was just going to say this. :) When I moved to England from Sweden, I wanted a dog from the same lines as the ones I'd had in Sweden, and I managed to find that quite easily. :)

Hubby doesnt see the point in paying out another £500 when we can get all we could want from kim as she is the best dog we have ever had.

Unfortunately Jessica it costs a LOT more than £500 to breed a litter. I mated my bitch 4 weeks ago and don't even know if she is pregnant yet, so far it has cost me roughly £700 (stud fee etc)  -but she already had her hip scoring etc done years ago (eye tests are every year though but cheaper), had I needed to do it all now we'd have talked about a lot more. And this is even before anything else -next expense tomorrow when we go to the vet for a scan to see if she is pregnant or not, then it will all start to add up if she is.

We are quite well off ourselves hubby owns his own buisness and i work part time plus juggling the 2 kids, so the cost side of it is nothing nor is space matters. I havent spoke to Kims breeder for a while but she did know i might be intrested in breeding her and did say if i wanted her help she was only at the end of the phone.

Then that would be my next phone call .........run it by her and see what she says and also ask her about silent seasons to see if there is a history in Kims line of them.Plus money I don`t think is the issue with most of us but we do know that no ammount of money can bring back dead puppies or even worst a beloved bitch due to whelping mistakes.
Gail :) :) :)

so the cost side of it is nothing nor is space matters

Don't forget the one thing you cannot buy-Time-you need at least 3 weeks one week before & two after to be with your bitch 24/7 & TBH I never left my bitches alone from 6 weeks on & I slept with the bitch & puppies until the puppies eyes had opened & they were too big to get squashed. I had a GSD bitch who deserted her puppies from day one & she had to be held to feed them & I had to stimulate them to toilet the works as she had absolutely no interest in them & I know this is not ususual

Breeding as others have said isn't just buying a bitch & mating it & letting nature take it's course

Have you worked through the virtual breeding link that I left earlier?

it isnt really practical to go over there just to get another one
Sorry, Jessica, it's a lot more practical than breeding a litter & being responsible for maybe 10+ puppies for maybe 15 years.
Labradors are not my breed, but 45000 puppies bred in a year? What has your bitch to offer that she should be bred from?
She's special to you, obviously, why not keep her that way?

Val i clicked your link but it came up page cannot be displayed and transferred me back to champdogs home page.

It's a good one.  Let's try again with the main page.
http://www.geocities.com/bluegracepwd/virtualbreeding.html

Shout if it doesn't work and someone else will do a link.

Hi

How can  you even concider mating her when you dont even know what to look for when she is in season?

Wendy

>We are quite well off ourselves <

so surely it would be just as easy to buy another puppy?? instead of breeding. 

i'm sure you could find a suitable pup from similar lines in this country and by getting another puppy you would become more experienced before having your first litter.  you could make sure the pup was kc reg and the breeder would be in this country, maybe even close to you to give advice and suport. 

i'm sure there are many labrador owners on here who would be willing to help you out and put you in touch with reputable breeders.

responsible breeding is about more than just finding good homes for the pups.  its making sure you have a good sound dog that isn't likely to pass on any bad traits to pups, like hip displasia, or bad elbows or eyes etc.

On average it costs me £1600 to rear a litter from a maiden bitch, and that is without any C section.

You also can't guasrantee all the pups will sell in a timely fashion, and the older they get the more work involved, and their desireability to potential buyers reduces in favour of younger pups.

do you feed them gold plated food brainless? cos I have never heard of a litter costing that much to rear

£1600 are you having a laugh

No, that seems about right. My last litter, 6½ years ago, cost over £1000 to rear, and was only that low because I already had a lot of equipment from previous litters, and there were no complications. Certainly have £1500 minimum ready cash set aside to pay for rearing the litter. With luck, if you don't have a large litter and they sell quickly, you might get most of that back when you come to sell the pups. If you're left with a few till they're a few months old you're in for a substantial financial loss.

Its expensive breeding a litter correctly.......eye tests,hip-scores, going to shows to assess the possible suitors(without upsetting their owners if not chosen) travel costs, stud fees, vet check ups, anti-biotics to cover bitch whilst mated, pre mate tests, scan fees, all the whelping equipment needed,referance books,extra worming,yards of vet bed, endless phone calls to breeder/mentor,welphing box, extra food, anti biotics for cover after bitch has whelped, visit from the vets to check all ok,medication to prevent eclampsia, nutro drops in case of struggling pups, more extra food including chicken, fish,goats milk to keep mums strength up,puppy porridge, puppy food advertising, petrol costs for home checks,more endless phone calls to prospective owners, vaccination costs, puppy worming costs .......and the list just keeps growing and growing.And I bet I`ve missed out loads and all this with no veterinary intervention. My first litter 10 years ago, I stopped counting the cost after £1,000.Thats also not taking in account your time which of course is free but you`ll need to be with puppies 24/7 for the first 2-3 weeks and I sleep with them 1 week before they are due until they are 6 weeks old.
So a quick trip to Ireland fades into insignificance.
Gail :) :) :) 

Hi

I dont do this for the money but I do keep a eye on it as I dont have a lot to spare

I reccon so far this litter has cost me roughly 2 pups selling price. I have 3 in the litter and they are only 2.5 week old.

All are booked but I think by time they go I will be out of pocket. Hopefully not a lot but that is the risk you take when you mate a bitch. I wanted something from this litter but unfortunatly the puppy I want isnt in this litter that also happens. I got 3 bitches I wanted a dog it cant be helped.

Forgetting the money the worry over my bitch you cant put a price on that. First and for most she is a much loved pet and I have worried that she will be ok, Worry now over the pups and the endless sleepless nights on the settee. Time I have spent with the new owners when I have thousands of other things I should be doing.

All worth it but it does take its toll on you.   I am not even thinking about the heartache when they leave to go to there new homes.

Remind me why am I doing this lol. Breeding is not something to concider lightly.

Wendy

Hi Jessica

You also have to think about the possibilty that you won't find homes for all your puppies, are you in possision to keep 3 or 4 puppies from the litter that do not sell? Also can you give all the correct advice to your puppies new familes eg explain what is a good hip score etc.... There are so many litters of labs out there...
The health tests are so important. I am not a breeder but a lab owner and my bitches breeder told me everything i know.

Hi all,i am new to this site - please correct me if i have said anything wrong :)

Good advice Tara - welcome to Champdogs :D

Margot

Thanks Margot (was a bit nervous - as i didn't want to say anthing wrong)

My bitch is from working stock and a fantactic girl - but i would never be tempted to breed from her as she is not is working dog herself, and as my breeder says (which i totaly agree with) She would never breed off a bitch that had not proven herself in the working field.