I dont mind losing some money say £250 ok my fault  but possibly lose £500 thats a bit steep

what breed did you say the dog was? how old is your child?

please dont get another dog.

Well, I agree with ChloeH about what kind of breeder would suggest hitting over the muzzle for mouthing, but I think you are assuming that the breeder has made a straight £500 profit from the sale of this pup to you.  Wrong, if he's run him on for six months (and we don't know anthing about the birth/how many littermates etc), it may well have cost him more than that to raise this pup to the time he was sold to you.

>It just seems to me some breeders r on the make

I have already said I had the exact same arrangement with one of mine so I could take umbrage at that comment :(

IMO a decent breeder probably would. But then, a decent breeder wouldn't tell someone to whack a puppy with a paper for mouthing :rolleyes:

To be frank reading this whole thread as one piece, it should be made public for all who are going to dive into breeding without thinking hard abbout it to learn from.

The guy with the puppy he no longer wants obviously thinks he is right and has a point. The breeder, from other breeders point of view thinks she is right and to US, her action is entirely normal and understandable in charging board until the pup is resold.

However, that said, if this chap goes down the pub and talks there to other potential unknowledgeable dog buyers they will agree with HIM.

From us as dog breeders point of view, first error is in thinking a tiny child would tolerate a boistrious puppy was made by the parents of the child. One point to breeder

Then the Breeder loses that point in not insisting the child went to mis with the puppy in her view before taking the puppy home. Deuce.

Puppy owner pays good money, breeder gives good puppy. Deuce again.

Puppy goes home and owner informs breeder about nipping. Point back to owner for caring enough to ask advice.

Breeder gives advice. Wrong but advice as far as they would deal with the problem. Deuce again.

Puppy owner doesn't give it nearly long enough nor look elsewhere for help with child/dog problem and throws in towel after what is a fraction of a second in terms of solving both child and dogs problems.

Breeder sees immediately that home is entirely unsuitable by way of screaming child and owner who throws in towel after 5 minutes flat and enforces usual returns proceedure. Point to breeder for taking it back.

Owner believes he owns dog and is being ethical by offering it back to its breeder when he could, by rights stick it in the Friday ad for as much as he just paid for it. Point to owner for being logical from pet owners point of view.

Deuce again.

This will go round and round as owner is not a breeder, and (slightly hard nosed) breeder is not a pet owner raised on 'if I still have the reciept I get a full refund' world.

If this were me I'd realise this was exceptional mispolacement of judgement of mine and take the dog back and give a full refund so pwner can go elsewhere or more importantly NOT throw my puppy onto just 'anyone' else. I would see it from his point of view for the sake of the dog.

However you have to see we are breeders and not standing in his shoes. Down the pub they will encourage him to believe the breeder is being unreasonable with unmeaning ignorance. get the pup out quick and pray said chap never buys a dog again without taking his child into consideration.

Di

Just want to say Welcome to Wylanbriar - and thank you for a well-balanced post :D

Margot

Ditto ;)

I would like to agree with your take on this, wylanbriar.  It sound like a reasonable scenario, but as I keep saying, we have only had one side of this story and have no knowledge of what the breeder was actually told or has said. :(

Thanks for the nice comments.

To the writer above, yes I agree, we don't know who said what to who. Logic tells us that the chap either *forgot* to mention his occasional visitor child - we have established the child doesn't live with him - or thought when thebreeder (hopefully) said 'do you haveany children at home' she meant just that - only at home fulltime.

I think fault lies on both sides, only the fact is, the owner holds ALL the cards. The cards being the puppy. Right now, if I was the breeder I would be sweating and offering to get in my car and drive across half a continent to pick the pup up, bringing him a crate of his favourite beer and an offer to cook him dinner. The breederis close, by sticking to her guns, to losing contact with this pup for good. Now I have run on myself and then sold on, and you can't tellme you don't form more of a bond with a 17 week old you've had high hopes for than an 8 week old you've just socialised and cuddled for 8 weeks? I have a 20 week old I am thinking of placing and if I did, and it went pearshaped like this, I wouldn't give a STUFF about who is right or wrong, i'd get the pup out.

The fact the breeder is sticking to her guns for the sake of a few hundred quid, and the owner is considering shoving a biting puppy (in his view) on his brother who probably sees the self same child that is terrified of it on occasion, says a lot for the pair of them to be frank.

Di

Put in that perspective, yes, the breeder should get the pup out of the clutches of the buyer.

I still think the refund offered was fair, though - to be honest, more than I would expect if I returned a puppy to its breeder.

A salutory lesson for us all, I think. I'm glad I've stopped breeding and will never have to face this awful scenario.

The fact the breeder is sticking to her guns for the sake of a few hundred quid

We have no idea if they are 'sticking to their guns' or if there has only been the one conversation about returning the puppy, when the basic and reasonable terms were put to the purchaser.

I'm amazed at everyone's imagination at filling in the gaps and possible scenarios - of which there are many! :rolleyes:

i cant understand,WHY if the child is scared of the pup (& the child dosent live with the OP) why the pup cant live with the op?

the whole situation is too confusing!

I'm guessing that the child visits occasionally.

Too many unanswered questions to be able to draw a reasonable conclusion michelled!

...hang on, I am basing my judgements only on what the owner has said.

When he told the breeder he would sell the dog on she said 'don't or i'll sue you' which was clearly used in the writers posts, indicating she didn't want the dog sold on and was aware that he was not happy with her asking for food and board money if he was prepared to not just smile and nod and return the dog but consider selling it elsewhere...

The fact she is aware whether there was 1 or 10 conversations that he was considering selling the dog means she was aware he was not happy with the financial arrangement.

I hve said several times we have no idea if he told her about th child. We DO know she didn't ask to see the child and seen as the bloke has taken the time to come on here and ask advice we can assume he is not an entire idiot of a person, so therefore had she asked about a child presumably he would have said 'yes'. Few people deny their kids.

To not ask is stupidity, to be told 'yes' and then not insist on seeing the child with the dog is asking for further trouble.

Its not rocket science to fill in some blanks when you can clearly see through multiple posts from the chap involved where the land lies. I believe I came down on noones side, just that of the dog which needs getting out whichever fancy way you slice it.
Di

...hang on, I am basing my judgements only on what the owner has said.

Yep.  Have you never heard two people relate the same incident and tell completely different stories, even if they both appear to be honest?

she said 'don't or i'll sue you'
Taken out of context or without knowling what else had been said could make they words sound very different.  Or were the words said at all?  Who knows?  I wouldn't pass judgment on anyone without hearing their side of the story.  That's very different to passing comment on what the poster says about their own situation.

We DO know she didn't ask to see the child
Was she even told about the child?  Maybe that's why she didn't ask to see him?  Who knows?

To not ask is stupidity, to be told 'yes' and then not insist on seeing the child with the dog
How do you know what she was told if she was not stupid enough to ask?  Not stupid not to ask to see if you are told that there isn't a child living there!

Its not rocket science to fill in some blanks when you can clearly see through multiple posts from the chap involved where the land lies
Certainly not rocket science but also not wise to make assumptions (to assume makes an ass out of u & me!)  when only hearing one side of any story.

I would most certainly want my puppy out of that situation but the 'I'll sell it down the pub' might have been the last comment before slamming down the phone and the breeder may well now be trying to work out how to get her puppy back if she's been told it's been sold on??  There, now you've got me using my crystal ball now!

Commenting on the OP's situation is helpful.  Commenting of another person's actions, when we don't know what they think has been said and done is unwise and unhelpful.:rolleyes:

... I stand entirely positively disciplined. ;-)

I'm sorry but with formus such as these one is commenting on what one has been presented with. I was extremely balanced in my thoughts. They are merely thoughts. I have said multiple times that i see fault on both sides before and during the rehoming to this chap.

On forums one never gets both sides and so you pick through and make comment. I misunderstand why you feel you need to question my personal take on the case when many others have written their thoughts and suggestions in a far more judgemental manner with only thought for one side of the case.

the breeder was getting far more protection, as usual, from fellow breeders than the brief facts of the case deserved her. I hope we get an update tomorrow saying she has dropped her demand for kennelling and this misguided chap has returned her puppy to her. The dog is my main concern here not casting blame. If you had read my posts properly you would have seen that.

Di

wylanbriar.........excellent post, so pleased to see you put the puppy first, and such a well balanced, informative, friendly view point  from someone who is obviously very knowledgable. lovely to read.

A logiacl mind, should be nice with the chaos occasionally found here

take the dog back and give a full refund so pwner can go elsewhere

I think this is one reason why the breeder should NOT give a full refund.  Some people do not learn from their mistakes - especially if there is no repercussion for them from their actions. If he gets his money back, whats to stop him getting another puppy elsewhere and then doing the same thing.

I don't really think people would generally think he should get a full refund - breeder or not - most people know you buy 'goods as seen' (not a term I like using with regard to a living creature)

goods are no longer 'sold as seen' the purchaser has far more rights these days.

Under the Sale of Goods Act (which covers pets too :() the main criterion is that of being 'suitable for the purpose' - in this case, of being a pet. The pup isn't ill or in any way 'unsuitable' - so no legal problem there.

Poor Pup,!!! only had it 4 day and you are giving it back to the breeder, Dont think you h ave given the pup much of a chance to get to know you or your family and its new surroundings,  I gather you did not research what it was like to have a puppy, what age is your child?  This is one of the main reasons I do not sell a puppy to anyone who has children under 5 yrs of age.  ALL puppies, no matter what breed will nip at first and it is up to you to arrange to go to training classes and learn how to correct this behaviour. I give my buyers a list of commands that I have used while I have the puppys and initial training is strarted here at my home.  This breeder will not make any money out of you returning the puppy in fact she will lose money, you dont make money with puppies anyway, if you think of the vet bills, food, stud fees etc. I would do what the breeder has suggested. If I had a pup returned, the buyer would get money after the pup was resold, less any further advertising costs, food , etc.  Its not the breeders fault that you cannot handle a young pup.

The length of time you have had it is immaterial the same expenses are going to be incured by the breeder ie advertising and its keep.  You have paid your fee now anyway and once the puppy is back at the breeders you will not have it's keep to pay youself so why is it so important that you get money now  You could ask the breeder to put it in writting just what you will be getting, what will be deducted etc when she does manage to find another suitable home.

Isabel,

I agree and would immediately ask the same as this breeder at first. In the one circumstance this has occured in a less volitile circumstance I did take the dog back then send them a cheque minus expenses once the dog was sold - just to show that I agree with her general policy - BUT - if you are then aware someone is unhappy enough with that to talk about selling it elsewhere you don't stand on principle- you get the dog out and throw their cheque at them. After all if its a good puppy you will quickly sell it elsewhere and so the few quid that she would need to dock the fella involved is neither here nor there really compared to possibly losing contaft with this dog.
One negotiated problems (and I say that to both sides of these sort of debates) one doesn't stick to ones guns if it might involve shooting ones-self in the damn foot ! ;-)  ;-)

Di

If the poster wasn't spo focused on the money but focused on what was best for the puppy I can 100% assure you every single person would have shown 100% full support. The money or lose of any was the biggest concern for the poster ..   people don't sit here waiting to gang up on someone. :rolleyes:

ah! appologies Nrob,
I see you've put;

>When we sell him asap we will send u back your money minus the kennel fees and food<

I take it your complaint is with the when part of this statement, meaning you will not recieve any remaining part of your payment until the pup is resold (could be day, weeks) rather than the fact you will have kennel fees/food deducted (which is fair I think as they couldve wacked readvertising and other costs on top which they will invariably occur now)

  

Ok seems most of  u r on the same wave length poor breeder not the person with the cash

i will keep the dog feed it kennel it pay its vets bills and sell it myself

By the way he so called breeder didnt even have any of his jabs done and this is one of the top breeders in the country

17 week old pup

Couldnt the afford it or was it save a bit more money

wasnt told about thaty on the phone only found out when i got there

please tell me if I'm wrong. most breeders have a waiting list for puppies. I have orders for the next 3 litters!!! no need to advertise, if this breeder is one of the tops in the country, it should take no time to rehome it.
odd that it had no jabs at 17 weeks old.

They have a waiting list yes but hes only got 1 ball and may have to have a op so not many people might be intrested in him

Its a Giant Schnauzer

is that the real reason for you wanting to return him? because he may need an operation, has the breeder told you or has your vet told you this? call me a cynic, have you found out about cost?

No the only reason is my son is really scared of him and i live on my own in rented property and work full time and i dont think its fair 4 him to be in house allday

>No the only reason is my son is really scared of him and i live on my own in rented property and work full time and i dont think its fair 4 him to be in house allday<
then why didnt you consider these before hand??
Being left alone in the house all day is an issue for any new dog not just this one!

> live on my own in rented property and work full time and i dont think its fair 4 him to be in house allday

Well, it's a pity that the breeder thought this was the right situation for a dog, but it does beg the question, if that is what you thought, why did you get him in the first place?

No the only reason is my son is really scared of him and i live on my own in rented property and work full time and i dont think its fair 4 him to be in house allday

I agree with you completely but that situation hasn't developed in the past 4 days, has it?  Did you tell the breeder that was your situation?

oh my god why are you having a puppy anyway if you work all day and live on your own ?

OK - I understand why you are concerned, but I this will not matter if he's being sold as a pet, and I doubt the breeder (however good) ONLY sells to show homes.  As Isobel has said, if you are worried, get the agreement in writing.  To be honest, at least he has offered to take the pup back and find it a home, I've come across quite a few situations where the breeder has not been interested in taking pups back and it has been down to a distressed owner to find a home - without experience of how to find a good one, where the puppy could have ended up being passed from home to home.  And these are supposedly 'good' breeders too.

"hes only got 1 ball"

Its not uncommon for a dogs testicles to not descend fully til they're 6 months + so why was this an issue with the breeder when the pup is such a young age

It is not unusual for breeders not to vaccinate puppies as some vets will not stock the vaccine programme they have started and rather than order it in choose to start the programme all over again.

"It is not unusual for breeders not to vaccinate puppies as some vets will not stock the vaccine programme they have started and rather than order it in choose to start the programme all over again."

True, but at 17 weeks it should have had its puppy course of jabs when still with the breeder.

What breed is it and have you signed a contract?

The breeders offered you most of the money back when they have managed to sell it I really can't see what you are complaining about.

I've only ever had one pup returned, though the owner had it a lot longer than 4 days and I did exactly the same thing.  Well actually I found the person to have the dog and they asked for exactly the same amount as I sold the dog for!

Ok seems most of  u r on the same wave length poor breeder not the person with the cash

Because we care about the DOG. You paid for the pup so you presumably had the money to spare, now suddenly the money is vital ASAP -what for? Another pup I'm guessing. :rolleyes:

i will keep the dog feed it kennel it pay its vets bills and sell it myself

If you signed a contract stating the dog would go back to the breeder if needed to be r-ehomed then do prepare yourself for the legal action the breeder has already mentioned.

By the way he so called breeder didnt even have any of his jabs done and this is one of the top breeders in the country

Could be all sorts of reasons, some people do not vaccinate at all as they don't believe in it, why didn't you ASK? As alreday has been mentioned £500 is incredibly cheap for a DDB.

And like I asked several hours ago and which has since been repeated by otehrs: didn't you do anything to find out what your child was like with such a big breed of dog BEFORE buying?

I'm a bit confused with all this. You're worried about getting your money back however you're happy to have half of it back ie, £250.
Why don't you put this to the breeder. If they are a top breeder as you call them, they should have no problems rehoming it and they should be more than happy to meet you halfway on the cost.
I think from what you've said is you've made a mistake and now have worked yourself up into a lather about it.
Can I only say that please do the right thing by the puppy. You've been honest enough to admit your mistake and I think your trying to do the right thing but pee'd off at the breeders attitude. We've all bought things and wished we hadn't but this is a living thing. If you're unsure of the breeder. Send the KC paperwork off before you hand him over. That way the dog is transferred into your name. The breeder should have given you this and signed it already.
Yes I agree £500 is a lot of money, however that should not be your motivation in what you do with the pup. There's nothing wrong with the pup, only your change in decision in having one. I'm still confused. One minute your selling it, the next your brothers having it. Which one is it?

anyyyyyyyyway..
You say Pupster has gone to your brother now,so the subject I guess is somewhat moot now.
   Nrob: We all make mistakes, to a greater or lesser extent, my mum always says 'Its not that you make a mistake, its what you do about that mistake'
   I'd say to you get in touch with the breeds you are interested in through the relevant breed club/society many of them have members who volunteer to have prospective/interested future owners come to their houses/kennels to view the breed...giving you the chance to take your child and spend some time watching both dog and childs ability to interact with each other..and you.
HTH :D
(Now you can see why when you posted previously looking for breeds why most people will always state the breed club as your first port of call)

This has put me off owning a dog for life

have tried to be 'neutral' but what on earth are you doing with a dog???? you say you live on your own with a small child and work all day no wonder you have problems with an excited dog. he is probably so pleased to see anyone that he forgets his manners. do him a favour and return him to the breeder before he gets into more trouble.

i have a small child i dont live with him he  lives with his mum my ex partner

i bought 4 him as a surprise as he has just lost his old Schnauzer