Can I just leave this topic with you all to add your experiences in sucsess in using either type od methods....  I go to two clubs one uses old school, the other all possitive... and to use the two concepts at the same time seem to clash... so whuch is the best. From observations the old school work... but I've not seen ant dog trained in the new ays so I've nothing to compare this with. Up to now I've used the newer possitive training and I think my dogs are less well behaved than those trined under more formal punishment based methods.

Thanks.

but are they happier

Are you talking about punishment methods versus rewards?

Punishment methods might be effective in frightening a dog into submission but you might end up with not such appealing behaviours as well.  For example, who likes to see a hand-shy dog?

One club wants me to shout and be authoritive... not hit but scruff and shout and be stern... because otherwise the dogs laugh at me and will ot take me seriously. And choke chains, or half checks and jerk to correct.

The other club we use treats and nice voice and ignore the bad but reward the good.

I do not think that the shouting and the punishment works for dogs at all, OK it might in the long run make a dog obeyyou, but they do so out of fear a lot of the time.
I have had many rescue dogs with very bad traits (from being abused) and I have only used the treat method with them and I have found that this works the best of all.
I was talking to a guy who trains Police Dogs and he has used both the old and the new methods and even he said he gets more results with the new method of treats and kindness.

You can be authoritive without shouting, change of tone does it for me.  I used to scruff my dog when she was a pup and occasionally hold her scruff when restraining her (she doesn't wear a collar indoors) I don't see what's wrong with that so maybe someone could tell me.  In fact she really doesn't like her collar held but doesn't seem bothered by me holding her scruff. 

I use treats to reward my dog and I'm always using a nice voice on her throughout the day because she is so beautiful and good (well I can pretend she is always good :D). Depends what you mean by ignoring the bad.  She went to lick my OHs plate that he had put on the floor and he told her no and I told OH off.  If it's on the floor it's fair game.  However, if she did something like try and raid the rubbish bin I wouldn't ignore it I would tell her off because it's dangerous and she needs to know it's out of bounds.

What sort of "bad" behaviour are you talking about?  "bad" is rather subjective

HI Cheryl I dont think there is much wrong with using the scruff as it does not hurt them and its what their moms would do to them anyway.
I dont agree with using a choke chain though as the OP said the old school do that but a semi choke that does not close around the dogs neck and does not hurt them well I found that OK at training school.
My trainer is the one that trained all the dogs for the TV adverts and all the dogs for the films and he has never used punishment or a harsh loud yelling voice for any of his dogs.
If the dont obey a command at first he just walks away from the dog and then goes back and tries again and each time the dog obeys the dog has a treat.

Before you can start to train any dog you need to build trust.   The old type methods never did that.

Reward based training is so much nicer for you and the dog.  If you have built your trusting relationship then your dog should be trying to please you, that is where the reward good behaviour and ignore bad comes in.  If the dog is trying, but gets it wrong you should never punish.  Imagine how you would feel if someone did that to you at school or at work.

You don't need any type of check collar for this type of training, checking the dog does not come into it.

To the original poster - Stay clear of the first club and go with the second, you and your dog will have much more fun and build that relationship that is essential to good behaviour.

I have to say that my instincts tell me that if my dog trusts me he is much more likely to respect my wishes. I'm not at all comfortable with the idea of shouting like a banshee and dragging him around on a lead and I certainly have no time whatsoever for "dominance" theory.

"Dominance" in my understanding being something best left to people who like wearing black leather and have a penchance for whips and handcuffs. ;)

OO You don't mean Victoria Stillwell? :0)

ROFLMAO ;)

Now my dogs always wear collars and are rarely grabbed at, as when theya re out of the hosue they are on leads except when free running.

Now a freind of mine was surprised when she looked after my youngest that she didn't like being led by ehr collar which she will do to put dogs in the car into a kennel etc, and she just dug her heels in, as she wasn't used to this.

At home I would tell the dogs to go where I needed them, and other times a lead would be on.

If I used their scruffs to restrain them they would think I wanted to hurt them.

Have no doubt about it, reward-based training works - how do you think so many of the top dogs trained in working trials, obedience and agility can all be trained using reward based methods??

If you have trouble being successful using reward based methods this says far more about your skill as a trainer (or lack of it) and nothing about reward based training at all.

We trained our two to pass the good citizen gold award by 10 and 8 months old... they are top of the class in obediance class.  I've now started agility training and this is where they use dominance shouting and being firm and very stern. I really want to do agility and this is the only club that does it and they are nice people but the  emphasis is placed on this way of training. They see me as weak and non authoritive and say the dogs have no repect for me and I am sure they find me irritating and too soft to do agility.

However I explained this is because I do not know what I am doing. Even if I didn't have a dog with me I would be getting it al wrong because this is new to me and there is so much to take in as they move so fast.

Now were I trainig myself I would learn in my head what I wanted from the dog and how I plan to teach that and wold break this down to small parts and 'programme' through reward the besic skills nd moves I needed and buld up on that. That is how I taught obediance so far and some tricks and HTM moves.  But in agility they do not do that and so my dogs look out of control and I feel very out of control and that I don't know what I am doing and so can't train them.  I find now the behaviour of my dogs in normal life is not as good as it was... and this wories me that maybe I am showing myself as weak and not any type of pack leader in agility and this is letting them see maybe in normal life they do ot need to repect me so much.

But I really really want to do agility desperately. And it is good for the dogs to learn this. The people in the club are lovely with their dogs because the do not need to establish this dominance over their dogs because they have already trained them and they just bellow in the face of the dogs if they go for another dog or do something wrong.  Their methods obviously do work because most people train that way... I was wondering if actually everyone really trains that way and the other way is just a minority and mostly  book theory.

I have been training with this club now for 9 weeks and I feel very deflated and useless and confused where normally in the past I have felt dog training comes naturally and is fun and rewarding... maybe it just is like this for all people when they start at agility?

Thanks.

find a new agilty club!ASAP

If you saw how reluctant my dog was at going through the tunnel and then watched how me and the trainer persuaded her through you would have been like the rest of my class - in stitches :D  When she eventually went through it was of her own volition, now I am not saying bribary wasn't used  but certainly not one cross word or stern voice. Agility has to be fun for both dog and owner or what's the point?

Nope, it's not that way.  Agility isn't the main thing I do, but I do dabble in it.  :)  At my agility club we are not even allowed to say "No" or any negative, no matter how quietly, to the dog when it is working. 

Agility needs dogs which can think fast and think on their feet.  They have to be able to make decisions quickly.  There is nothing which closes decision-making down as fast as fear - fear of getting it wrong, fear of making the wrong decision, fear of turning the wrong way, fear of not jumping the right jump - all this will totally screw your dog up.  And the best way to evoke fear is to yell at your dog!

Have a look again for another agility club - perhaps you will need to travel further afield, but it should be worth it.

didnt know barbara woodhouse was still alive.jerk to correct stick to your modern club.
there you may find your dogs are a little bit naughtier......but will be dogs not robots!:rolleyes:

im now confused...if its a ag club they should NOT be jumping on chains what if they get caught in the jumps?

Tenaj, i would just do as you feel rather than let them bully you into doing something your not comfortable with. I must admit i do really shout commands at my collie during agility, She thinks nothing of it, still loves agility, but becuase she is so fast and focused, unless i use a really authoritative voice there is no way shes going to stop at the contacts etc. However if i did that to my goldie, who is less experienced atnd lets focused, i doubt i would ever get her to do agility again. I go to two agility clubs, one is a private lesson, so its very focused on what my dogs need to work on, and the other is a group where i take my collie to practise running courses. However, i'm not a very good handler, and im sure the people at the  group club get exasperated with me, because i don't always do it the way they think i should and it doesn't always go right, but i always tell them that as long as meg is enjoying herself it doesn't really matter.
Absolutely 100% go back to the positive club. Would you work willingly and happily for someone who felt he needed to bully you and shout at you all the time? Personally i would work for someone who offered me money and praise when i did something right!

Hi

If you are asking which is most effective, positive or punishment based, you will get people telling you different things :)

Reward based methods work well - IF they are implemented properly, and to do that, esp. with say a strong minded dog, you really need to understand learning theory a bit and how to give consequences without using physical  aversives.

The lady who won the Kennel Club Tracker Dog working trials last year and was second this year is a clicker trainer ; people in Obedience such as Mary Ray use clicker and positive methods generally.

I've never had so much control since using these methods - I stopped my dog barking in trials agility practice in a few minutes simply by understanding the concept of taking away something she really wanted at the right time and in the right way - no stress for her, just complete understanding :)

The Brelands and Baileys who did loads of training when clicker was first really used taught dogs to detect trip wires in the Vietnam war and dog and human lives depended on the qualty of the training - the method chosen was postive, clicker :) In many years of training dogs practically, they chose to use physical punishmentonly 12 times. I believe that shows that , applied correctly, there is no need for punishment in training.

Positive does not mean permissive ;)

In "real life"  (ie not actually training ) dogs may require a bit of an "oi, you!" occasionally, but really that should be it IMHO :)

So yep, change your agility club -  it is making you miserable and making you lose confidence, let alone your dog.

Lindsay
x

Thanks for your replies.  This is the only agility club and I already travel quite a way to this club... after training it is about 11pm when I get home and I have my 14 year old training with me who needs to get up early for school.

The positive club is obedience..I still go there. This agility is run by the same club. They all love their dogs to bits and I am new and they are the experts and been doing this for years and years but many of them  have agility dogs rather then pet dogs... they like to choose the dog for agility because they are really into tissport and so good atit....rather than me who's chosen the dog as a pet and  like the idea of doing agility for the dog and for the pleasure of working together with the dog... I think maybe I had the wrong idea about what agility is about.

One of my dogs is sensitive... I only have to raise my voice at my kids and she goes and hides! But fortunately my kids are good and we do not have a lot of shouting in the house or she would really find it hard to live with us. This one is my obediance dog but my daughter trains this dog for agility because she could not cope with our other dog.. the trainer no longer tells her to shout because it is obviouse that is the wrong thing to do with this dog who needs spark encouragement....lol..two things my daugher also finds hard because she is very very quiet and quiet natured.

My other dog seems to be as sensitive as a lump of stone but actually thatis youth and excitability... inside he sensitive and really desperate to please! He is just a madly happy chap! I train him in agility and he is so hard to train because I am not used to training him. It is good to do this and get to know him better. I have underestimated his ability because he was going to be a pet and looks so cute and handsome and then my son dod so well in trainingb him and when I see him in agility I am shocked because I never realised he would be able to jump so well or be as fast as he is.

The other beginners are all experienced in agility  and have lessons twice a week and started training classes the term before us and a couple have been in training classes withntheir dogs for two years and also they have slower dogs!  Their dogs watch them all the time and try not to put a foot wrong... mine just blast into the sunset! That's why I thought maybe the old ways are more effective because they do seem to work s these dogs are more focused. The other dogs in my class haven't even been to obedience and mine have been each week of their lives!

Someone another board suggested a video which might help. I'm sure if I can get this right my dogs will get it right and I will be respected and not shouted at and my dogs not shouted at. The trainer I have is lovely but just has different ideas and I think has no respect for me that I do know how my dogs personalities and what makes them tick and how to train dogs once I know what it is I am training them to do.  I just don't know that right now because it is totally new activity to me.

It might seem mad but I've gone this far and I really don't want to give up. ESpeciall as the summer will bring better weather and I can then begin to train more even if just in the garden which I can't do at all right now because it is all slippery mud.

I will just add...the trainer pointed out that on all the tv shows the people who had problems with their dogs because they are weak. I found that insulting to be likened with people like the ones you get on these tv shows or called weak.  We are quiet sensitive people....being quite and sensitive is not being weak... it is just our type of personality and it is quite possitive to be quiet and strong and authorative it's just we do not have such strong ephasis on the importance of those qualities and believe you can gain the behaviour you require by making those you work with feel they gave this or achieved this themselve rather than having it taken from them. it's just a different way.

right!!!! you listen to me!
a good trainer,can adapt their methods for all types of dog & person. if you arent happy been "hard" then your trainer should not force you to be.

there might be some private ag clubs about in your area(that dont advertise) what area are you,i will ask.

Thanks...I'm in Leeds, West Yorks. I'd think even the odd  day  training course would be great for me to get me started.

I think she is just frustrated with us... we are with expert people which makes us look word=se than we rally are ( I like to think that's what it is anyway ) I was looking at the way I do talk to my dogs...I used to teach young kids in inner city areas and I use all the fake tones one uses with little kids when I talk to my dogs at home... and they really do repond to it. In honesty even if I just did that in agility class my trainer would be happy with it... it's just I don't because I am not confident enough in class. Sometimes we do something and I think 'Ah I can do that!' And then I can forget where I am and just can get my dog to do what I want.

But most of the time I'm still just at the stage.

Interestingly a couple from agility brought their dogs to obediance and were amazed at what  both my dogs could do and commented they were surprised because my dog didn't look so well trained in agility class as he had aken the wrong jumps and ended up arriving in their class twice that week.   Their dogs would not keep their waits for recall or anything at obediance and one had to go right back to doing a puppy recall. I thinkit just takes time to get through some of the youthful excitement. I maybe need to go backn to more basic training with my own dogs are reafirm with them the way I want to train and try to fit in more 1to 1 time with each of them.

Oh Tenajay :(  There's weakness, and there's being inconsistent - people have problems with their dogs, not because they are 'weak' or strong' - You can be firm and command respect without yelling and shouting.  The best trainer I know - Gwen Bailey, simply has to give commands to her Beauceron with a normal voice and he obeys because he's been trained using positive methods and knows it's to his advantage to listen and respect her - because she's earnt his respect, not because she demands it.......

You say your trainer is frustrated - this is because she only has a limited 'tool box' and doesn't have the depth of experience to assist you in the way you and your dog need - it's her failing, NOT yours!

Thanks.  yes I think the trainer is trying her best... we are maybe odd comming from a training club with different ideas on training to he ones most of them have . SHe also need to keep our dogs safe so needs them to do what they are told. 

well.... I like the idea you can use a quiet voive because my daughter will have to use a quiet voice because she is so quiet...but she dosen't ge flustered so once she knows what she is doing she will be fine... she is doing way better than me.

To cheer me up today several total strangers have complimented me on my dogs behaviour and level of obedience. I went to try them in a new playing field today to train and was complimented by an old chap who said he'd been watching and they worked beautifully. 'said it was a beautiful sight to watch them' How sweet!  I just need them to do that well in agility too! lol! And then maybe at a few shows in the summer. See... a little praise goes a long way with me! Makes me try harder and it is the same with dogs...they love the praise. Thanks so much you all persuaded me to carry on with the possitive methods I've used last year.

When I collected my young dog as a puppy my breeder who is an old man of great standing in the breed told me as we were leaving.
"Always remember a quiet voice is much better than a big stick" he had all his dogs at a word and its something I,ve never forgotten.
Just wish he,d have a quiet word with the little madam he sold to me sometime:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Tenaj I am absolutely horrified that you are being treated in this way. I train with a private group for agility and this sort of behaviour would not be acceptable, I would get my backside kicked from here to christmas. I started agility 2 1/2 years ago with my first collie when he was 2 1/2, he is now senior and I feel very lucky to have done so well with him, he has always been trained with rewards never with any kind of harsh treatment. I have seen advanced dogs take the wrong jumps both in training and competition and it isn't because the handlers are weak it is because they have given the dog the wrong signals. They work from your body language, if your body is telling them to go on and take the next jump you can scream right/left until you are blue in the face they will follow your body. This should have been explained to you and if your trainers had any understanding of dogs they would be able to tell you this. My next dog is 13 1/2 m onths old and has been trained with a combination of toy targets for the contacts and clicker training. He is fast and enthusiastic and is now getting to the level of confidence that he is also sometimes a bit naughty, I have to trust my trainer to tell me this because I have never trained a pup for agility before and I don't always know when he is being a baby and when he isn't LOL. Your methods of training are far superior to those being suggested to you by your trainers. You will get far more of of your dog doing things your way. You will end up with a dog that will always do it's best for you  because it trusts and respects you as a handler rather than one that just obeys you blindly because it is afraid to do otherwise. My senior dog trusts me 99% of the time, the other 1% he makes his own mind up because I don't give him clear signals. He will always do his best for me and if I make a mistake and try and correct it he will kill h imself to put it right, you will never get that with a dog that is afraid of you

Personal experience?  Positive all the way.

I started using punishments when Remy was about 12 weeks - the classic "impatient novice owner/housetraining problems" situation, I got fed up with Remy leaving me piles on the carpet and smacked him on the bum when I caught him doing it once - we went downhill from there.  The only thing it's ever solved was the housetraining, although he did keep peeing for a while.
IME, smacking, yelling and leash corrections - things I used for quite some time - do no good at all.  What I ended up with were two dogs (I got Opi when Remy was 5 months, and used the same methods on her - though not as much) that didn't want to do what I wanted, and were generally badly behaved little so-and-sos.  Remy's independant streak was a mile wide and he took every opportunity to give me the proverbial finger.  In addition, he also became quite a somber dog - he didn't like to play with me much, although he is much better now.  Opi, fortunately, has always been more responsive and willing to forgive and forget.

When I started reading up on positive methods more - The Culture Clash was my first stop - and implementing them, things turned around; my little g*t of a dog is now a much more obedient dog, and enjoys being with me so much more - he's not watching for that unpredictable side of me that might smack him for doing something, or shout at him.  The only time I yell now is if it's an emergency - last time was when he tried to have a go at a collie on-leash and got me tangled, if I hadn't shocked him into stopping I would've fallen over and let him go, you can imagine the result.

I think how well behaved the dogs are comes down to your own methods - punishment based methods often produce better behaved dogs because they are working to avoid punishment, basically working through fear; something I do not like at all.  We have a GSD at work that has been corrected with a gravel-filled bottle - it stops him because it frightens him, and I hate seeing it.  I've acheived the same results - stopping him jumping up, and leaving his kennel calmly - simply by turning my head/body when he jumps at me, and waiting until he sits before I open the kennel door, with no need for punishment.  He has a way to go, and he's hard work, but I'd rather he did what I asked because he wants to - not because he's afraid of what I'll do if he doesn't.  Not a good basis for a good person/dog relationship IMO.

Okay, WAY longer than I meant to write, but it's something I feel strongly about!

Hi Nikita,

That's very honest of you and very beneficial to others for you to have said what you have.  I am totally for positive reward training and really couldn't stand the though of doing it any other way.  Even without having used smacks, shouting or lead corrections on my girl, I know for a fact that if I tried any of those methods it would ruin the bond and I'd end up with as you put it a 'somber dog'.  As it is having trained her with reward based training at 11 months she is incredibly well behaved (most of the time :-) ) always delighted to see me and wanting to spend time and play with me.  I've seen quite a few dogs characters ruined because of harsh training methods, a lot of them are obedient but are a shadow of their former selves personality and character wise.  I can't strees strongly enough how beneficial to you and your dog reward based training is from my experience.  :-)

Karen

Good Grief,

I can hardly believe what I am reading!
I have agility border collies and have trained them for many years reaching senior level with most of my dogs. For a club to use such training methods is simply horrific. Positive reinforcement is the most effective and fun way to train a dog in agility. Raggers, balls, treats, running round chirping in a high pitch voiced "what a good dog"! The dog has to know this is fun!
People who purchase dogs purely as "agility dogs" sicken me. I have seen it all too often..dog not shaping up to be a brilliant agility dog...off they go. Dogs should be pets first. If any of my dogs didn't like agility, or couldn't do it for health reasons....who cares! I will find something else to occupy their minds which they enjoy. Don't change what you are doing...instead, change your club!
xxx

Are people from the South of England? I just wondered if this is a North South thing because it really seems to be favourabley towards te old school way still  round here from what I've seen. It is very acceptrd as THE way to train dogs.  The " you might think theyl''ll hate you for it but really they'll love you all the more for it' way of training.

Raggers, balls, treats, running round chirping in a high pitch voiced "what a good dog"! The dog has to know this is fun!
... that's what I expected agility class to be like.  Many of the competition class do work their dogs in that way so I am really just confused! Well..it's great to see people think like me...even if it's just cyber people! lol! I will just ignore the demands to shout at my dogs and try to settle down to catch their attention in the way they are used to. It must be confusing for them to have been brough up one way and then suddenly taken to a place that looks such fun only to be shouted at and scruffed. So I will stick to learning how t use the wquipment and so on from the club but handle the dogs my way. If I think it won't work I will rethink if we should be doing  agility. I do love the obedience and we can always look into doing conformation.

>I have been training with this club now for 9 weeks and I feel very deflated and useless and confused<

I expect the dogs feel the same!  I think that's the problem with the old school methods.

Well done for deciding to do it your way - though it'll be tough if ALL the others are shouting and scruffing (been in that class, couldn't stand it after a while, left :rolleyes:)

I think it depends on the dog, some respond well to one method and some to the other. I have one thats quite sensitive and if I was too harsh  it would not be the way to get the best out of him he needs a positive approach and another who would never have learnt any manners without me being a bit tough on her when she got a bit too big for her boots early on.
A good trainer in my opinion susses out the dog and adjusts the training accordingly and the 'one method suits all' school is not the way forward IMO
Amos

I do think thi is what my trainer is trying to do because the advice is different for each person...it's only me who's being told to be shouting and scruff and be in his face... which is a shame because I'm probably the only one who's really rally just at all  not keen to be like that.

I think on when to be firm and to praise and tones of voice....I think all this comes naturally as you gain in confidence and get to grips with what you want from the dogs. When you begin training you ideally already know your dog and how best to work that dog... and a trainer wold need to observe the dog quite a lot before really knowing the dog and how best to train them The old ways were maybe more based on one way fits all... and now there is more appreciation of individul personalities.

When I train my dogs I really don't have a clue what type of noises I'm making... I just know enough to see it works and that if anyone hears me I'll get cared off and locked up in a padded cell. But once they know they know what they are doing I try to work quieter because I know I'd be quieter if I was competing them in front of people.

I think also people can have misconceptions about a breed... many trainers work mostly with border collies and are not so hot on understanding some of the other breeds. Mine are Aussuies and people think they are the same as Border Collies but their temperment is very very different.... they really are a breed which responds to praise and job satisfaction but switches off to punishment and to force. They are lovely dogs.

ok......dont dont dont try to force a aussie to do anything.they are too strong minded. this is a breed that needs a reason to do something,not to be made to do something.

yes...this is what I've found... we chose them for their unique personality and temperment ...but people who do not know the breed do not really fully understand how to get what you want from them. I'd guess you can not take form an Aussie even if you wanted to! They have to choose to give. That's what mine are like anyway.

Yep...I guess it's all down to what you want in a dog.

I actually like spirit. I like a dog who smiles and who laughs at me and teases me... and who sometimes might outsmart me or adlib. I know this is not ideal in agility or obedience but it is part of the charm of having dogs that no matter how good they may become at something I like them to also shine with personality. This to me is more important than winning.... but both together would be nice. ;)

lol i wish you coulkd see how naughty flynn is! & he was Conly in obedience at under 3years.
you are never going to win anything with a bullied dog,& if you do what is the point if your dog is scared of you>?
teach teamwork& understanding,be as consistent as you can be & be fair.
sounds to me like your ag trainer is well out of their depth tbh

here is a link

http://www.agilitynet.com/activepages/clubsv2_ed.asp

to some clubs,you just put your postcode in!

Yep...I guess it's all down to what you want in a dog.

I actually like spirit. I like a dog who smiles and who laughs at me and teases me... and who sometimes might outsmart me or adlib. I know this is not ideal in agility or obedience but it is part of the charm of having dogs that no matter how good they may become at something I like them to also shine with personality. This to me is more important than winning.... but both together would be nice.

My collies outsmart me sometimes the worst one is the dog that can only do anysize classes, he is such a little S*@# but he is so much fun to work with, he is always so happy and bouncy and full of attitude. He definitely smiles and laughs at me too, you would be surprised how mandy dogs in agility are like that, both collie and non collie breeds:-D :-D

Those are my kind of dogs too - the loony types that just want to have fun.  The best part is when they finally realise that doing agility properly is great too, that was a wonderful day for Remy :)

One time that sticks in my mind was a very recent attempt with Opi to train her to do the tunnel last month - she's not done it before - if I'd used harsh methods she'd have backed off or slinked and shut down on me.  As it was, I ended up half in the tunnel, bum in the air, knees in the mud - she looked over the top a few times, then suddenyl realised where my head was, shot through the tunnel at breakneck speed and sent me flying into the mud on my back, much to the amusement of the rest of the class!!

That's what I strive for now - dogs that have great fun doing whatever they're doing.  I find myself always looking at their tails - if Opi's happy, her tail is half-curled and horizontal; if Remy's happy, his little stump is a little up from horizontal (his conformation means he can't get it any higher), and he has a little wrinkle of skin at the base :) if that wrinkle is there, I know I'm doing it right!

Kelly only does anysize because he has a hip problem, because of this my attitude is that he can do what he likes, if he goes clear fine, if he doesn't that's fine too, I don't care as long as he is ok. I know he is ok because he barks at me on the way round, I say go and he says woof, left-woof,right-woof, tunnel-woof and the whole time he has this big stupid grin on his face.I didn't realise it at the time but I only knew he had a problem because he stopped barking, I knew he wasn't right I just didn't know how I knew. When he came back into training and he was barking at me that's when I realised what had been missing. Deef is a nutter, he is very calm in the queue at a show because I don't like him screaming. He goes off the line like bullet from a gun, I put him in a wait and he takes off for the first jump right from where I left him, he never takes a stride no matter how far it is and he comes out of the ring all a quiver (literally) I get a real buzz from working him, I think he figured out agility was fun in the first lesson. Sol is still a baby but already he is loving it and he is just as mad keen as deef with just as much power even though he is a lot smaller than him. I always joke that my dogs are spoilt rotten but they don't get away with anything. It's almost true, they sleep pretty much where they like and I never have any fights about anything, deef is top dog and that's that. I am very relaxed with them and never nag and I think this is why they are so full on. There are people that I train with that have been very strict with their pups right from the day they brought them home and they have never had a fast agility dog although you can see that their dogs have the potential. It's almost as if they just don't know how to enjoy it and just go for it, everything is under strict control and the speed and enthusiasm just never come. :-(

Ive read the thread and there is some excellent stuff on here. 

I cant help commenting on - 'I actually like spirit. I like a dog who smiles and who laughs at me and teases me... and who sometimes might outsmart me or adlib' -

I know exactly what you mean.  My OH has worked with Beardies for about 27years and is getting to know them a bit better now.  His first Beardie, a lovely slate boy, loved agility and was working at a very senior level (20 yrs plus ago) when he slammed himself hard into the tyre and fell to the ground with a yelp.  OH waved to the judge to say 'I am stopping now', but the dog got up took the tyre jump and went on to finish the course ON HIS OWN.  Wild cheers from the crowd, teary eyed other half.

Now that's character and adlib.  Way to go you agility fans.

If you lost your voice what would you use? Years ago I had a trainer that said to me 'I can't hear you', I said no but my dog can! If you always use a loud voice you will never have a voice that you need when there is an emergency. Most good agility owners use their arms to signal to their dogs what to do. Lets face it if the dogs are enjoying themselves and barking in excitement then arm signals are better than a loud voice.:-)