Does anyone know the out come of the bill that went to the commons today, or have I got it all wrong.

Not seen anything at the news, but there was a petition on the thingy for docked breeds stand at Crufts

I could be wrong (quite often), but I understand that it's all over bar the shouting (house of lords). An all out ban was missed by just 11 votes. Working dogs can be docked, BUT, these docked dogs will NOT be allowed to be shown!
Apologies in advance if I have got this wrong!
Kay

I don't think the Government can ban docked dogs from being shown as the KC is a private club & makes it's own rules regarding dog shows & of course lots of docked dogs work & are shown(breeds like GSPs for example)

Then there are naturally bobbed dogs like some Vallhunds, Pem Corgis & Aussies & of course some Boxers too

so all dog that are shown at the moment with docked tails cannot be shown.

there must be a cut off date to say which dogs with dock tail cannot be shown.

so what going to happen to all the hpr and other breed that are shown at the moment with dock tails.there be breeds that will never be shown again until the breeders have tails on their dogs which will take years to come though.

I asked this question on Sunday Briedog as I hadnt read the amendment right but it says

(7)   A person commits an offence if
(a)  he shows a dog at an event to which members of the public are admitted on payment of a fee,
(b)  the dog's tail has been wholly or partly removed (in England and Wales or elsewhere), and
(c)  removal took place on or after the commencement day.

So dogs already docked will still be eligable to be shown.
Dogs shows just won't have to charge the public (TIC)

So does that mean as of now puppies cannot be docked.

I can't find anything about this in the news today but beardiesokay says working dogs can be docked so to me that is all the puppies that may work in the future.  How can anyone say which one will not?

STANDING HERE WITH WHITE FLAG....... just wondered if the premises the pups come from would make a difference? If it was say a gamekeeper, or someone that shoots with their own dogs, trials etc, member of the field sports clubs, that sort of thing, if that would make a difference? And maybe proof from other owners of their pups that they work, or some anyway, and the quantity of pups they breed? i wouldnt think working people breed many litters. Although I can't for the life of me think why they are splitting it like this, except to make a point that the dogs are being docked for the purpose breeders say they dock for, and thats for work, not cosmetic reasons, to save injury etc. Such a shame though that the good working (docked)gundog is being penalised by not being able to prove its worth in both working and the show ring, when a long tailed dog can do both (even if risking injury) if you see what I mean.

No the bill will have to get through the House of Lords & the second reading(if the one today is the 1st reading & then the Royal Assent & then when it is in it's final form there will be a cut(sic)date ! for docking
Starting at 3.30pm & can be viewed live here http://www.parliamentlive.tv/
Animal Welfare Bill:
Report Stage and Third Reading
(may continue for up to six hours after commencement of proceedings on the Animal Welfare Bill (Programme) (No. 2) Motion).

Not many MP's in there & they are debating greyhounds as part of it as I type

Click on the live house of commons

This might help--- 
http://www.cdb.org/lords/index.htm

Just to add that small shows don't usually charge neither do most Obedience shows so that will be most confusing you can show at obedience & say limit/open shows but not @ Ch Shows & Crufts !!

I don't think some of the Championship shows charge either, certainly not bred lub shows, and soem where the show own their own site.

What if the KC abolishes fees for spectators at champ shows?  Most income comes from show entries and I think it's only a few quid to spectate without a dog, isn't it?  That would help the HPR breeds no end.

For Hprs this is a crap scenario.  It means that we will start to lose our dual purpose dogs because breeders will be forced to consider what is more important - working (dock) or showing (not dock). 

Unfortunately I think it goes a little deeper than just the Championship shows. I can't envisage Crufts giving up public entry fees.  Also you have all the shows around the country that take place as part of larger events - exemption shows and working terriers shows spring to mind.
 
It does seem a bitter pill for the dual-purpose breeders, (although I've a hunch that working ability would improve if they just concentrated on the working side! ;-))

Pity though because it means that some breeds will be split down the middle like Labs and Cockers

Thank you I should have thought to look there :)
Let's hope the Lords will see the silliness of having a situation where it is acknowledged that it is necessary for working dogs but nothing is being done to prevent the RCVS from penalising their members for providing this service :(

Gosh lots of MP's have just emerged from nowhere to vore on the greyhound amendment!!!!!

Hi

I dont understand why a dog that is docked has to be microchiped before it is 3 months. What has this to do with docking?

I wonder how many actuall vets are against docking, I know a few have said they are not but its not worth the risk to them to be caught docking.

If I read the bill correctly does it mean any dog that works cannot be shown? In which case the best in show at Crufts wouldnt of been able to of been at the show if it was docked after a certain date.#

Is it people that have no idea that want it banning. Folk that believe it to be barbaric and cruel but have not actually witnessed the procedure.

What are they doing with grehounds. I havent paid much notice to that bit

Wendy

Did you see the episode of "Jimmy's Farm" where he put a band around a lamb's testicles?  I doubt you see lambs writing up to Farmers Weekly protesting against that :rolleyes:  As soon as Jimmy put the lamb down the lamb ran straight to mum for a feed, hardly writhing in agony then? A lamb in pain is shown to stand very still and hang its head which can be seen after museling has been performed on them.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4807372.stm 

Sorry Guys can't do the links thing but this is the latest news tonight at least.  I would think that a law can supercede a private clubs rules and regs in a case such as this if it does become the law of the land.

Vets are taught about pain behaviours and managements during their training and believe me a lamb running back to it's mother to suckle is in pain see the attached link and watch the video footage of the differences between a lamb done with pain relief and one without.  There are many examples of animal behaviours shown when experiencing pain that our vets are expected to learn to help them assess and alieviate pain in animals.

http://rds.yahoo.com/S=96781308/K=tail+docking/v=2/SID=e/l=VDR/SIG=12r4f11pd/EXP=1136714667/*-http%3A//www.vet.ed.ac.uk/animalpain/Pages/Moviepages/MovieTDlambRRla.htm

I promised myself I wasn't going to post on this thread and I broke my promise :(

There is no denying that the lamb on the link appears to be suffering.  It is in stark contrast to the programme I mentioned and correct me if I'm wrong but I would have thought that having your testicles strangled  would be more painful than tail docking.

Just as we can see videos purporting to show suffering of lambs so we can see a litter of boxers not suffering any pain in this video from the Council of Docked breeds :  for the sake of balance, I do think that people should look at this as well:-  link is http://www.cdb.org/

I have experienced the docking of a litter of aussies - and as I have said many times, they showed more distress at having their bedding changed than in the whole process of docking 7 2-day old puppies.

Margot

Hi

I had a litter of JRT docked 10 days ago and took special interest in the pups and mums reactions while it was being done.

The pups were annoyed and sqeaking and mum was getting distressed but this was at the vet picking them up and checking them over. They did not appreciate him looking in there mouths for a cleft palate. I can honestly say they didnt complain any more when they were docked. The min mum had her babies back she was happy and they started to feed. Sitting in a cardboard box on the vets table. Dont think pups in agony or distress are wanting to feed, Not a sqeek out of them all the way home

4 days later one of them had a chest infection and was on antibiotics. I really think this was due to the fact we had to take them on a 3 hour round trip to the vet as no local one would do it. That to me is worse.

Wendy

i have had fcr for 19 years which keep their tails,but wispa damage her tail so badly that after 8 week of care trying to get to heal and her in pain we and the vet  went down the routie to have 3 inches of beacuse of the pain and infection.she was a different dog the next after the op she went on to win bobs.with a short tail,the other breed i have are spainsh water dogs which have their tails docked up 3 days old or some  are natural bob tails to,
i bred my first litter of swd last year i join cbd luckly my vet dose docking,so the trust him was already there,i was very worried about doing this to my puppies as it was the frist time for me as a breeder,
well the pups went in to have it done back out with 10 mins fast a sleep in their box with no care in the world on crying no infection, all healed well,

it was me that was worried,but a lease they cannot damage the tail like wispa did and go throw that pain if they did damage their tails on a shoot or working test
different breeds different type of work out side in the feild.
is going to take a long tiome for breeders to breed the collect tail set in the dogs for show,but most dogs that are shown are working to that why we chew this breeds.

I gave this link to show how and what our vets are taught to help them to treat pain in our pets, something I'm sure we all can relate to and would expect them to be rather well versed in otherwise we'd go elsewhere for treatment of our animals. 

I can assure you getting your testicles strangled is no more painful than getting your tail docked especially considering the tail holds the spinal cord in breeds such as my own the schipperke where the tail is docked right to the body. I am anti docking from personal experience not some hearsay evidence but holding lambs and pups whilst being docked with bands and cutting it is distressing to the mothers as well as their offspring

I too speak from personal experience Schip - which only goes to show that there are differing, equally valid, points of view.   The mother of my pups was fine with my vet carrying out the procedure and I too was present during the whole process.

Margot

I've had a docked breed for 13 years now and have had a vet dock my pups for that time.  I wasn't against it but I wasn't exactly for it, but in the two seconds of discomfort that they have and it's literally two seconds it hasn't worried me.  They scream their heads off when they have their dew claws done at the same time though!

My breed is also naturally born bobtailed.  How the hell am I going to prove that they are natural bobtails and how am I going to pick a working one in my litters within 3 days of birth?????

This is so stupid and brought about by people who don't have a clue.  All vets that I have spoken to aren't worried about docking hurting pups but what would be said and happen to them if they docked!

In a few years time it won't only be docking that's stopped but natural bobtails being born, dogs with a certain body shape being born, breeds suspeptible to HD being born etc. etc.  Don't think I'm scaring people this is a fact and people who have gone down the road to stop docking have started something that is going to affect many breeds greatly in a few years time. The world of dogs will totally change and I'm not looking forward to the day that this will happen, but it's only just starting!

HOW SAD!

This sounds like another knee-jerk piece of flawed legislation that can only lead to confusion and chaos! And, rather like the hunting ban (of which I'm not intending to get into a debate!!) was mainly brought about by articulate but ill-informed lobbying from suburbanite yoghourt weavers.

Er, rant over!

There's an interesting bit at the end of the bill about 'those' collars.

positive or negative?

I think it's good: the new clause was:

'(1)   A person commits an offence if--

(a)  he attaches an electric collar to an animal that he knows to be an electric collar, or

(b)  he knowingly uses or permits the use of any electric collar or similar device on any animals.

(2)   A person commits an offence if he has in his possession or under his control, or offers, exposes or advertises for sale or supply, or sells or supplies any electric collar or similar device designed or invented for use on any animal.
   
(3)   In this section "electric collar" means any collar or any other device which is made, designed or adapted to transmit an electric current or other electric impulse to cause shock, pain or other stimulation to an animal wearing or otherwise in contact with the collar or device.'.

But I don't know whether the clause was passed and included in the bill. It seems from the wording that 'pager' collars for deaf dogs would also be banned under the 'other stimulation' wording.

It certainly sounds like it's worded to cover any loopholes.

>suburbanite yoghourt weavers

:D :D

The debate can be read here.

My breed is also naturally born bobtailed.  How the hell am I going to prove that they are natural bobtails

I know in Holland that they occasionally refuse to register natural bob tails without proof - usually in the form of an x-ray - which I for one am not happy put a young puppy through the anaesthetic for unnecessarily. 

To show my natural bobbed vallhund in Germany I have had to get him x-rayed and have to take not only a certificate from the vet but the x-ray too if I want to show him. 

I am already getting enquiries from people willing to give up their breed of choice because they can no longer doc for vallhund puppies - just because they can be born tailless.  In some cases they have never met a vallhund, or given any thought to whether the breed is suitable for them, or wether it will get on with what dogs they currently have at home all they can see is the possibility of no tail.

We don't have a problem with spina bifida or similar illnesses in our breed, mainly due to the fact that breeders are very careful not to breed bob to bob, but if for some people tailless is the only requirement how long before people start to breed without thinking!

collars: does that apply to those invisible fence type collars as well? i have a friend who uses one for her deerhound ontheir farm & its a life saver. her dog will be confined to periods of being chained up if so....hardly a smart move?
re docking ..i have done thousands of lambs tails & balls as well as piglet tails. I have rarely seen any major signs of pain....sometimes a bit of a jump about for 1 or 2 minutes but nothing more. Likewise i have done & had done, a lot of working terrier tails. All i can say is that i will have my terrier fully trained to nibble off the tails by the time she has her litter!!

As I understand it unless you show your terriers you will be able to continue anyway, I assume they are used in vermin control :)
As for your friend and her deerhound she will have to do what everyone else does and either supervise its excercise or have a secured area.  Do you resort to electric fences for your hounds?

isobel, yes vermin control is No.1 job but they love hunt terrier shows & terrier racing too. regards the invisible fencing.....like most dh's theirs is easily capable of jumping 7 or 8 foot fences. They have had 20 acres stock fenced for her but she can ping the wire & gates with ease & a couple of times she has got onto quite a busy road when she has been just out pottering around the farm yard. The collar has been a real lfe saver as the electric signal wire has been buried around perimeter of 20 acres but about 8 feet in from the edge,& without it she will not be able to do any of her usual fun things, such as accomponying thehorses in the morning. Of course she will still get her daily walks with the others but her ability to leap all known fencing will stop her from being allowed to potter outside all day as she has always done. How cruel & unfair.

How do you contain your hounds, can't your friend do the same?

isabel. Mine do not ping 8 foot fences!!!!!

Sorry, I thought you had a deerhound too.

i have two....but like i said, they dont go off jumping 8 foot fences (unless they are actually hunting) which they dont get to do in the garden

Finally someone who sees sense well done sam for speaking up. There are a huge number of dogs around the country that would be unfairly confined if they were band, or shot by farmers for escaping and chasing livestock or worst of all find themselves in front of a fast moving vehicle.

The shock collar bill wasn't past for those that are interested. (can of worms)

Hello All,

In the 'total ban' scenario, what happens to imported dogs? If, for instance Southern Ireland didn't have the same ban, then what is to stop people trekking over there , having their pups docked and then coming back? (or even taking their pregnant bitches over there to give birth) Would those pups then be 'illegal aliens'. Also, who would police it? If I imported a working dog from Europe that was docked, who would check up on it? (I'm not going to, but I'm just being nosy)

Ali :)

So does this mean that the Aussie wouldn't be able to "defend" his title next year?

I take it there will be an even playing field - and that dogs who are docked overseas will not be allowed to be shown?...........

Margot

that rigth about oversea dog not showing but i again i can not take my swd to some country aboard show beacause of they bann in their country.like was going to take her to the world dog show in germany,but no dock tail allow/

how,s the public got the rigth to say they want to bann dock tails.

what do they know about the breeds and the breeding progamma and the hard work that gos into breeding good quailty stock for the future.

>what do they know about the breeds and the breeding progamma and the hard work that gos into breeding good quailty stock for the future.

You can't blame the public really.  They know nothing unless you tell them and sometimes that means shoving it in their faces. Like the fox hunting ban they only heard about and read about the negative sides to these practices.  Re docking when you have media bodies such as certain dog magazine and animal welfare groups stamping their feet, backed up by emotive pleas by dogs :rolleyes: writing up to support the campaign what can the public do?  Unless you have a counter campaign equally as powerful in media terms the public has no option but to go on the information spoon fed them.

What sort of material have the MPs been given that has persuaded them that this is such an important issue that it has to have the law changed?  Perhaps they are just going along with some European cousins.  I blinking hope not, I am already thinking this country is losing its teeth.

edited to add:  Look at the negative responses there were to Gordon Ramsey's turkey killing programme.  People don't like to think of animals being hurt or killed in anyway (don't suppose it harmed turkey sales though)

i again i can not take my swd to some country aboard show beacause of they bann in their country.like was going to take her to the world dog show in germany,but no dock tail allow/

Briedog make plans for the World Show in SWEDEN in 2008. You can most definitely show docked dogs in Sweden as long as they were not born in Sweden! http://www.worlddogshow2008.se/ Spanish Water Dogs are listed complete with judge's name.

No Margot the Aussie would be able to defend his title  if he hasnt retired by then(TIC) as the ban will allow dogs docked before a stated date still to be shown. However younger dogs from over the pond who were docked after the ban would not be able to be shown.The problem of telling a natural bob from a docked tail hasn't been addressed as far as I can see:rolleyes: Typical half baked law that hasn't been thought out.