Advice Please.

I have a German Shepherd Dog called Jack, he is 6 months old.  We have been going to puppy classes for the last 6 weeks and he really enjoys the training we do and is getting on very well. The problem i have is he barks constantly at the other pups there if they go anywhere near him and what really stresses him out is the trainer gets us to let them off the leads for the first 15 minutes. (I swear he ages 10 years in front of my eyes in that time ) I don't want to give the classes up but people are beginning to say and do some hurtful things, ( he is a big lad) I really don't know what to do for the best.

Hi

Why isnt your trainer offering you any advice how to stop him. surely that is what he is there for.

Please dont give up, try and sort this problem. My GSD is 4.5yrs and has done this as a youngster. I didnt deal with it properly at the time and now he is a nightmare to walk around other dogs. So I tend to walk were we are unlikely to meet another dogs which isnt always easy.

Ignore what other people are saying you have a problem and are at classes so at least doing something about it.

If you are not getting the help you are needing from your trainer find another one.

Wendy

what happens when the dogs are all allowed off lead, does Jack seem to enjoy it? or is he being frightened? what are the comments you have heard than are hurtful? I have  a GSD too and know what you mean,  just a bit more info would be helpful. when mine was 6 months old training had become a time to train the dog to look to its owner not to be playing with other dogs, although playing is very important, it has to be carefully monitored. Its a question of "what do you want from your sessions and are you getting it at this place?"

Jack stays at my side, quite relaxed until a pup comes over to him, then he's straight on his feet barking fur standing up on the back of his neck, sometimes tail wagging but not always, jack is the oldest and the biggest.  I won't go in to details but the comment range from a new comer been told not to go anywhere near Jack cos he's not safe, he can't be trusted to believe it or not " is he safe with humans"!! I'm beginning to feel isolated because its every week.

What is Jack like when he's not beside you - when somebody else has his lead?

When he's off the lead he does sometimes go to another couple sitting very near by if he sees a treat, but thats about it.  On the lead i have passed him over to the trainer when we're doing an exercise and he's quite happy and he will listen to her. Could the fact that the classes take place inside and with all these other pups running around making him nervous.?

i must admit I dont like the idea of the off lead bit, not by this stage, if we did that at our classes there would be mayhem as there are several nervous dogs there who would be terrified. each dog needs its own personal space and I think you would be better off going somewhere else, I tried 2 places before settling on where I go now, to find what suits my dog and me.  Try visiting a few without your dog and chatting to the trainer about your concerns and take it from there. Dont let other peoples predjudices spoil things for you, good luck, it will work out in the end. your dog needs to meet lots of other dogs that are under control, and not running up to him off lead. good training classes are ideal for that.

I'm wondering if he's picking up on anything from you travelling down the lead?  Or maybe perceives his role as 'protector'........

Many dogs also act differently inside and if he doesn't have time to adjust to being surrounded by other pups, he may just have learnt to defend himself (and you) by being 'gobby' (typical GSD behaviour BTW ;)) when there is mayhem.  This sort of behaviour should really be managed by a combination of you and the trainer working together with an agreed plan to reduce his opportunities to keep doing this.

Is there anything you could suggest, i was told to distract him by rattling something at him. i havn'nt tried this because if he is nervous and not happy i don't want to make matters worse.  At home he is a different dog, very calm, loving and hardly a sound passes his lips!!!! for example i watched him watch a dog pass the gate when he was in the garden, NOT A SOUND. I'm very limited when it comes to changing classes but i don't want to stay if this situation is making him worse.

Hi Jack29

You are absolutely right that if he is nervous and afraid you will only make things worse if you add in other frightening things like rattling cans.

It IS important for pups to socialise off lead with other pups, BUT BUT BUT, this has to be done in a controlled way. 

Firstly 15 minutes sounds like a very long time for this to happen.  5 minutes would be much better.  The reason for this is that the longer that puppy play goes on for, the higher the chances are of it becoming rough.  And when puppies learn to play rough, they continue to play rough when older and this often leads to play fights tipping over into real fights, when other puppies misinterpret their roughness as being rude and soliciting a fight.

Secondly, no dog should be allowed to either bully or be bullied in a play situation like this.  Both puppies in any interaction should be happy and willing participants.  It doesn't sound like this is what is happening - it sounds like your dog doesn't want the other puppies to interact with him and their attention is being foisted on him.  He is trying to tell them he is afraid of them and wants them to go away and humans are not removing the puppies which are barking at him.

Thirdly at 6 months old, your dog is too old to be in a puppy class.  There should be an age limit on puppy classes of max 20 weeks (5 months).

This situation is not good for you, and no it is not good for the other puppies in the class.  It is not your fault or their owners' fault, but the fault of your "trainer" who (like many others) seems to think that puppy free-for-all constitutes good socialisation.  It doesn't.

I don't want to alarm you but at 6 months old your dog is past the critical age for socialisation, which ends at around 18 weeks.  It is likely that anything he is afraid of or aggressive towards now, he is likely to continue to be without some concerted effort on your part - much more effort than were he younger than 18 wks.  Did you make sure that he socialised a lot off lead with other puppies from the day you got him home until he was 18 wks??  If not, in some ways you are partially to blame for how things now are. 

You should not allow your dog to continue to practise this behaviour.  The more he does it, the more likely he is to continue to do it.  If I were you, I would try to find a trainer who can help you through this.  For example, there are many ways to set him at his ease, such as finding the safe distance a puppy has to be from him, for him not to respond.  Then scatter treats on the floor and let him eat the treats up while the puppy is brought one step closer.  Then scatter more treats on the floor and bring the puppy another step closer.  It may be several weeks before you can advance even one step.  It doesn't sound like your present trainer has the skills required to deal with this, so you would be better off changing trainers.

Where abouts do you live?  There might be a trainer in your area someone on here knows of.  Otherwise check out www.apdt.co.uk for a list of reward based trainers.

Jack has been socializing from day 1.  We have another dog at home and he also meets other dogs when hes out in the fields off the lead.  We go out twice a day so not a day has gone past without him not meeting someone.

Is he fine playing with the other dogs he meets with you in the field, or does he react the same way?  Is it something about the class set-up which frightens him?

I think you've already recognised what you need to do - and as you can't rely on support from your trainer, you need to find another trainer who WILL help.  To be honest, a bad training class is almost worse than no training class at all.  Choose your next class carefully - go and watch without your dog to be comfortable with their approach.  Where abouts are you?  Maybe somebody else here knows a good class local to you.

many dogs in training classes will bark - the trick is to get them relaxed enough so that can think about doing something else instead.  It may mean moving chairs around so one dog can't eyeball another, it may mean providing a nervous dog with a safe 'bolt hole'. It may mean providing the dog with a suitable 'distraction' in the form of a stuffed Kong.  The owner can play a part too, but ensuring they don't reward the behaviourby fussing or paying attention to the dog when they are noisey, and praising quietly when they are quiet.

IMHO letting puppies off lead ad hoc is asking for trouble, and many puppies learn to be defensive in classes like this.  IF puppies are to be allowed off lead, it should be carefully managed, matching puppies for temperament rather than just size - I've seen a 20 week old Weineramer play beautifully with a 12 week old JRT very succesfully.

Your puppy should be learning basic training at classes, but also how to socialise properly with other dogs and it doesn't sound as if he's getting both in these classes :(

Hi i have had the same thing with my 8 month gsd bitch ,she was so affraid in puppy classes that all she did was bark and look defencive ,then people would say she was nasty ,to the point i thought what have i let myself in for ,we go to a breed club and she was great their. But when we were  around  other dogs she would go mad barking and pulling ,to the point i did not want to go out with her ,and when we did i would turn the other way if i saw another dog coming .So with advice from this forum i went to a apdt trainer and after a few lessons she canged all together our confidence grew and walking became a pleasure ,she is going to start a clicker class this week because she now likes to be with other dogs and wants to play.my trainer said that she does not think that an all puppy classes are a good idea because they are all wound up and some get nervous and some get to overpowering ,so why not try to find a class with a happy balance some young and some older ,because the older dogs will teach them good cannine comunication skills and may not make him so nervous . and i do agree with everyone else they should not be let off the lead to run riot .I think that they have been lucky to get away without any one been hurt and i am sure that their insurance would not cover it either , i am sure that this will sort it self out because i do know how you feel it is haert breaking and when someone who does not know gsds passes a comment that they no nothing about tell them to go and boil their head, it will come and just remember he is only a baby and things do change over time as i have found out over the last few weeks ( you are not on your own) love karen

certainly i would hate to find myself in a puppy class!, all that tearing around and barking, when my dog is surrounded by calm dogs he is perfect, but if one were to run up to him barking i wouldnt be surprised if he responded. this class is just the wrong environment for you and your dog, its not your fault. keep looking around or even ask to come in after the playtime so you can skip that bit?

I'd certainly second onetwothree's comments about your dog being too old for puppy classes. Especially a puppy class that includes the sort of over-excited free for all you describe! I'm not at all surprised that your dog finds this overwhelming and, rather than being "unsafe", he sounds as if he's coping better than might be expected under these circumstances. For sure, my pup learnt his canine manners from mixing with older dogs in supervised conditions and I hate to think what he would have learnt from a class full of pups tearing around like mad things!

I know this is a personal view but a poorly run training class is, in my opinion worse than not going to classes at all and I'd look around for an alternative immediately. If no alternative is available then keep up the daily socialising with other dogs and carry on with the training yourself.