I've just been talking to someone who wants to breed their GSP bitch (not a member of this forum).

She has a question which I couldn't answer, and maybe is a matter of opinion and interpretation, so I thought I'd see what you lot have to say about it....

She is looking into stud dogs, and temperament is really important to her (along with health tests, show qualifications and working ability). 

Some of the stud dogs she has spotted at shows and in working situations grumble and growl at other entire males.  If other entire males get too close to them, they will have a go at them.

Some breeders she has spoken to seem to be of the opinion that this is perfectly normal behaviour for entire male dogs and nothing to worry about.  The thought of not breeding from dogs exhibiting this aggression against other males just doesn't seem to have occurred to these breeders - they almost _expect_ male dogs to be like this towards each other more often than not.

Someone else has suggested to her that this kind of behaviour can easily be reduced if breeders don't use studs with male/male aggression problems and try to breed it out, just like any other aggression problem.

Before she sets out on a crusade to find a stud which meets all her criteria and also doesn't have male/male aggression, she just wanted to know if this is a realistic thing to aim for?  Is male/male aggression normal and acceptable?  Or should studs with male/male aggression not be used by responsible breeders?  Thoughts?

I would never expect males of any breed - or indeed species - to be pals with all other males they meet.

I too think it would be unnatural  to accept all other entire males, AND I firmly believe you can go too far in the other direction. I am having MAJOR problems with my cats at the moment, very close to losing my lines forever, due to having males that are far TOO soft and therefore don't stand up to stroppy girls that need a firm and confident boy for mating, they just give up trying if the girls objects as they avoid confrontation. I have seen this in other species too.

yes agree JG - especially those in confined spaces or surrounded by an overwhelming number of dogs who might just be asking a rude dog to get out of its face only to be labelled "aggressive".

What if those alleged "aggressive dogs" are merely "communicating"? What if such dogs were in fact fantastic communicators? Do you breed this characteristic out because you misunderstand what your dog is telling another dog?

And on another interpretation what if you subscribe to the theory that aggression is caused by dogs competing for breeding rights and try to breed THAT competition out, then you won't have many dogs left.

C

Its not just stud dogs that can grumble, one of my bitches grumbles when other dogs of either s*x get a bit too close and invade her space, it doesn't mean she is or is going to be an aggressive dog, sometimes she just 'wants to be left alone' ;)

Well said Cissy, that has happened in my breed, where 3 males have sought of been "ruined" by one naughty male!  Everyone thought that it was the other 3 dogs with the problem but it actually turned out that it was the one that everyone that was saying was sweet and innocent that had a problem !

Well, I don't know what conclusion this woman will reach.  I don't breed and don't want to give her advice on the matter, although I will pass on what others say.  But looking at this from the position of someone who will (hopefully) one day breed, I can say that I'd be trying to find a stud with as little male/male aggression as possible.  I haven't mentioned this to the woman, since I don't know if I'm right with it and don't want to influence her unduly.

Yes, dogs could possibly just be communicating with aggression - but what are they communicating?  "It's a nice day today"?  Or - "leave me alone you low down piece of trash"?  The latter is a form of aggression - aggression IS a form of communication - no more clear form of communication than a dog fight after all.  Personally I think they can also do without that communcation to no detrimental effect, as demonstrated by the fact that none of mine have ever been aggressive towards another dog or person.  I have only had bitches though, which is part of the reason I posted here, to see what stud owners say.  I don't think we should dismiss or reject or diss a dog because it has shown aggression towards another dog - but should we breed from it???

Afterall, we are talking about gundogs here, which have to work in close proximity to each other, are crammed into horse trailers on shoots together, hunt the ground off lead in close proximity with other dogs in their work, honour each other on point and so on - their main working function involves being able to work closely with other dogs without conflict. 

I've personally been in situations where I've been working with male dogs which are male/male aggressive and it makes work really damn hard.  You have to always have an eye out for all entire males, to ensure they stay away from the aggressive dog.  You have to make sure the dog is not in the same trailer as other male dogs.  You can't just stand around at the end of the shoot with the dog on the lead and have a chat, because the dog will have a go at any other males in the vicinity (such as the ones owned by the people you're talking to).  Working your dog on a shoot is hard enough as it is, without also keeping an eye out for other males to avoid conflict.  And you have to ask yourself - if the purpose of the dog is to work closely with other dogs, how "normal" can this problem be, if it obscures this entire purpose?

The first post reported that the dogs

>grumble and growl at other entire males.

This is perfectly normal, especially if there's an interesting bitch in the vicinity (as at shows, for example). If the dog in question launches into a fullblown attack on all other entire males then I'd have second thoughts about using him. If he attacked bitches I'd be even less inclined to use him. But two males posturing ("My dad's bigger than your dad, smelly-breath") wouldn't concern me particularly.

I think this is entirely normal mature male dog behaviour - and not just in dogs either - most entire males of any species will compete aggressively for their place in the pecking order. Our 'top dog' only has to look at the other males in our 'pack' for them to give way but he has been quite hard on them to get to that point - it does mean that they now co-exist peacefully together. Interestingly the one who is our 'top dog' has never been known to lash out at other dogs round the ringside although he does grumble if they are actually in his face - our lowest ranking male is the one we have to watch when out.

It does annoy me when folk who do not understand entire male behaviour allow their dogs to wander about at the end of a long lead and become intrusive - it even happens in the ring :(

Yvonne

Sorry, have to agree with onetwothree, I chose my last stud from watching him interact with other dogs, not only in the ring but outside of it whilst being walked on a fine show lead.  He was just a happy go lucky lad.  I had chosen several dogs as a short list, looked at what was behind them and if I knew of dogs in the pedigree that I didn't like the behaviour of I discarded them.  Obviously, they were all dogs that I felt could put something on my bitch, I liked the bloodlines and then went for temperament.  I just feel that you have to look at all the problems that can ensue from a dog that MAY throw bad temperament.  When you send puppies to their new owners, there may be little things that they need to ring you about, but I would hate for it to be for bad temperament.  I always instill that any puppy MUST come back to me, but what would I then do with one that is showing aggression.  I have Goldens by the way!  I even know of someone very experienced in the breed that used a dog, not realizing later that the dog was a grumbler.  A dog and a bitch from that mating have had to be rehomed to people that only wanted to have a single dog, as the dogs could not live with another dog, sorry but that isn't true Golden behaviour.   But I am not sorry to always want to get it right.  The other reason for watching the dogs are that the owners are not going to admit that their dog is a bit of a problem with other dogs. I will now wait to be shot down.

A dog and a bitch from that mating have had to be rehomed to people that only wanted to have a single dog, as the dogs could not live with another dog, sorry but that isn't true Golden behaviour. 

Meant to say, it does of course also vary a lot from breed to breed. I will never be surpised at a Golden accepting other males, but many other breeds are totally different.

However I've often been curious about whether what is NOW seen as "true Golden temperament" actually IS. Lucille Sawtell always said that she did not believe so, that today's Goldens have gone too soft and that they were not like this back in her days when she started -the true dual purpsoe Goldens then had a tougher edge to them to be able to do a day's work and like she states in one of the american books "would not fall over on their backs if reprimanded". (Or something to that effect.) Sure enough, all Yeo dogs I've known (and I've still got one) have been very different to other Goldens as far as temperament goes -even down to guarding the house. (Having said that, they are also a LOT harder to live with because of this.)

I have 3 male entire dogs, they all get on fine with each other. One will happily greet any male dog that he doesn't know, or indeed any dog, one will accept bitches only, the third no dogs he doesn't know.

Yes I agree, the dogs shouldn't fall on their backs when reprimanded, and the breed standard says confident, but there is such a difference between that and out and out aggression.  There was also the instance of one of the older breeders having to be tannoyed at a show to go home.  One of her dogs had gone for her husband.  Really we wouldn't want that sort of aggression.  The fact that Goldens are (or should be) family dogs says a lot for what we should expect.  I haven't got a problem with a dog standing up for itself but it shouldn't be the aggressor. By the way, I'm not trying to be smart on this one, I am very lucky to have a 'mentor' behind me who has taught me everything about all the dogs in the pedigrees that you wouldn't want!  All my girls live very closely together and are exercised together so I cannot have any trouble between them, because you know what they say about bitches falling out.  I am proud that any boys that I have bred cause the owners no concerns and hopefully I am doing it right.

Oh I agree Alison -and my boy in question is the perfect dog when it comes to people, even if in pain he would not as much as growl. Once found one of my kids using him as a step ladder, standing on him, now that must have hurt, but he just accepted it.

Wonderful, just as you could imagine them to be with children.  Very forgiving.  I had a puppy use one of my girls as a step ladder to get on the couch. Aren't they brilliant.

To the original post.  I would just short list a few dogs and watch them interact.  At least you are judging them for yourself, not believing what people want to you to hear.  If possible try to 'chum' up with someone that has been in the breed for a lot of years and that you can trust to give you the whole picture. If possible try to find out what dogs have the worst temperament and look back in the pedigrees.  Can the breeder not point them in the right direction?

Hi Marianne.
The only time I was bitten by a dog was a Yeo Golden and it was totally unprovoked. I said to the owner, has it Yeo lines and she said ...yes , how did you know? It looked like Yeo to me and I was not overly surprised that it was. All I heard was a rumble while I stood talking to the lady at training as I had two youngsters ( dogs) with me she came over to talk. She was not surprised at her dogs behavior. I was ! I had to go to Hospital and have the top of my index finger stitched back on. My two pups just vanished behind me when the attack took place.

Hi -assume it is Kate C? :) Sorry this is a late reply to this thread, Crufts got in the way! What an awful experience. :( I've had 3 Yeos (well okay one was actually breed by LS's kennel maid, but was full Yeo breeding) and all but 2 of the Goldens I've ever had have had Yeo breeding behind them, and although the Yeos have all been very dodgy with other dogs, they have always been absolutely perfect with people, down to not even complaining about being hurt by children being too rough.

Hi, I do not mean to say ALL Yeo were nasty but it was fairly well known that they could be.
I would not expect ANY of ours to be nasty with Children, even if the wee ones accidentally hurt them. which would seldom if ever have happened. They did roll about the floor together and play in garden but dogs were always very gentle with them. Vets often commented on their temp...the dogs that is. Kids might not have passed the temp. test. LOL.  All the other breeds I have had were also great at vets and with the kids.
Kc

I don't breed but I had a long discussion about temperament with a breeder in the park. She was saying that if her males are too male aggressive she doesn't use them for breeding. Another, local who is also very particular about temperament does the same thing. Their breeds are flat coats and labradors. Just to present another point of view even if it is second hand.

entire male/male aggression is expected when there is a female in heat present it doesnt matter the species if you put 5 males of the same species into a cage with one female ready to be bred you would have a problem they are competing for what is coming natural to them to be the winning mate.

Take lions for instance if a male lion is run out of his pride the new male will kill any of his offspring because he wants to put his own genes into the offspring he is making the pride his own.

If the aggression is when there are no females around and it is over the top then i would be worried but a small amount of grumbling wouldnt concern me. 

I am amazed that anyone thinks stud dogs or dog as a sex as opposed to bitches should be aggressive to one another whether they know each other or not. I have four stud dogs lying in my kitchen with five bitches and not one would think of turning on the other. Their temperament is wonderful . Even if a bitch comes to be mated  they might bark in anticipation that they might be the one to get the girl but I can take one out, mate the bitch and put the boy straight back with the others. No problems.No I am not hard or even that strict but I do show lots of love to all and there is no jealousy. Bitches can  snap at a dog that might get too amorous when they are not in heat. Would you not snap at the unwanted attentions of an over amorous male? They do not 'go'for them, just chase and make it plain their attentions are not welcome. The dogs scatter and are quite funny. A bit like a man having had his hand slapped!! Then they come back over and the bitch just walks off and sits down for 'safety' in the nether regions.
We have a breed of gun dog that I know many are of the same opinion as me. Why not visit the Golden Retriever ring at a champ show. You will see up to 30 in some classes, all male and not a cross word. we would be most annoyed if a dog turned on another in goldens. Many are sold as pets and temperament is PARAMOUNT in the breed. The show ones anyway. I cannot speak for the working side. It is not unusual for several dogs, total strangers to each other to come together at rallys, fun days and play together and not a grumble to be heard. Our bitches are removed to an outside run when in heat so the dogs , although they know they are in heat do not have them amongst them as we would not want them mated unless a planned mating.
GSP are a slightly harder breed as they are a German breed and they like a strong dog with a bit of 'hardness ' to hunt for hog, deer, wild pig etc.
Each breed has a standard and some breeds are meant to be a wee bit on the dominant side for what they are or were bred for in the first place. It would be best to find this out before you get a breed. ANY Breed.

I have 3 entire males...all live in harmony together.However in an unnatural situation like a show ring where tension can be high and we expect our dogs to be 'on their toes' then I can understand the ODD bit of male/male aggression.By this I mean a grumble,a warning if 2 males were in close proximity.I would not accept however a dog that lunged or tried to attack another dog...to me theres a big difference.
Archer

Perhaps in some breeds this is acceptable. In Golden retrievers it would not be. In a ring full of dogs, with no female competition why should they "be on their toes"? Even at open shows the dogs and bitches are mixed ( and rings much smaller if I may say so,) and the most you will see is a tail carried rather higher than it should be but that is the extent of the "on their toes" as you say.
I have had many breeds over the years and never had an aggression problem.
This is JMHO. All our dogs are impeccable in behavior in ring and out of it. Perhaps it depends on the breed as some are bred for different disciplines and they require different temperaments. As I said , when buying a dog, look at the breed standard for that breed. See what the temperament should be and what the dog was bred for. Do a little research before you buy it then you will know what you have and what to expect. I certainly could not cope with any aggression in any dog I owned. They all share our home and live peacable together.
If you want a dog with a "harder "temperament then you will have to realise that you need to put up with the temperament that comes with that breed and not all breeds  make the best pets. You need to know how to handle them. A GSP is not quite such a soft temperament as a Golden Retriever . Most HPR breeds are a little harder. Breeders should be honest about the temp. of their breeds. Some lines can differ in temprement also! In saying all this if a dog tries to mount another strange dog then please do not fault it for "complaining. " In Goldens it is usually just a warning to "get off". It is not a dog fight. Other breeds may differ.

A dog (or bitch) in the ring who isn't 'on his/her toes' and doesn't 'sparkle' isn't going to do well. Males of all species are competitive with one another, so a degree of machismo ensures survival of the species. Out-and-out aggression isn't wise, though. A successful male will assert himself without extreme violence.

Hi, Sorry to differ but our dogs are very much on their toes and "sparkle "for Liver as do most goldens. As a breed they are very food orientated. If they did not 'sparkle' we would not have made up champions. They only get liver in the ring so are very keen, ears up, tails wagging. and looking as they should, keen and alert. Some are topped and tailed by their owners, depending on the best way to show each dog. I know some breeds use other dogs to get their dogs on their toes to "show" them . We do not do so and it would be frowned on in the breed.
Horses for couses!

Not acceptable to face dogs off against each other in the UK either, or the USA for that matter

I show a male stud dog who will strut or mumble at males that give him the eye (has never tried to go for one), yet he travels with entire males of different breeds,a dn holidays with up to 20 dogs, mostly male no bother.

Our imported male won't take a challenge lying down yet has travelled abroad with a male husky, Rhodesian Ridgeback and Whippet alls stud dogs without a problem.

A bit of macho posturing is part of what makes a male male.  As long as it stays at posturing that's fine by me.

You've lost me now. :o First you say "In a ring full of dogs, with no female competition why should they "be on their toes"?" then you say "our dogs are very much on their toes ". So you too think they should have that 'look at Me!' quality. Unfortunately that's an attitude that other dogs, who would in other circumstances not be the slightest bit bothered, can, in the confined space of a ring, take exception to. Just as people get tetchy in a crowded underground train.

In my breed we use bait as you do to help get that keenness. It's funny how so often they assume the next handler's using nicer bait than 'mum' and show for them! :D We never, ever stack or 'top-and-tail'.

Top and tail depends on breed as you will know. What I mean by 'on their toes 'for liver is TOTALLY food orientated as I think I made clear. Our breed should have a soft expression and I doubt that would be so if shown in a dog to dog  superiority situation as in Boxers/Dobes etc.  Ours do not do this. Our stud dogs are very good at the job they do. No messing about. They will get up and down on command if they are not quite in the right position and all bitches are held. No bitch has ever gone away unmated....with one exception...she went for me and my partner and her MOM. We decided it would be best not to mate her ...not to our dog who just might get the blame if any progeny took after the dam. I am sure you are aware the dog always gets the blame.
Of course you need to show off you dog but there is no need to use other dogs to do it. There are other ways. I once won BIS when some  swallows decided to swoop around the ring and my dog was so facsinated that he just stood, really alert. tail out ears up, neck stretched out.... watching them..no need to bait. and yes, I know that someone else's bait can look more attractive than Mum's but usually a quick sniff of the bait in my hand will bring their attention back to me.
A bitch can snap at a dog trying to mating her out of fear...wouldn't you if you were of the opinion you were to be raped ? It is not always a love match. The object of the excersise is to get pups. The bitch is always fine after they are tied. The one in question that we did not mate was definitly a nasty lady. All teeth and that 'look' in the eye. We do check that the bitch can easily be mated before the dog is brought in and that she is soft enough inside.
Off to do some work.

AH but that's trying to change natural behaviour to fit in with human requirements, JG!  And don't forget that these new behaviourists, who make an 'ology' out of what born and bred dog owners have done for years, need a constant supply of problem dogs to keep them employed. :)

I think that there's a big difference between males posturing, growling, curling their lips, an intimidating look - normal canine communication between themselves, and an actual attack!

I don't really think it's ever acceptable, personally, in any breed.

Except for dogs which are bred to be dog-dog aggressive, such as pit bulls etc - fighting dogs.

Dogs which are bred to be guarding dogs are intended to guard property or people - from other people - not from male dogs!  In fact, guarding breeds are often worked together in pairs, or with other handlers who also have entire males - if every time they tried to speak their dogs tried to have a go at each other it wouldn't be very helpful...

I think the interesting question here is:

Is male-male aggression in a different category to all other aggression in some people's minds, so that it is somehow acceptable?

If so why, and on what basis do we put it in that different category?

Is there any mileage in the fact that a dog which is aggressive towards other dogs is more likely to have genes which could lead pups he fathered to grow up to be more aggressive in general - beyond the male-male aggression we are discussing here?

In what situation is male-male aggression helpful or desirable?  If it is not helpful or desirable, and in fact is destructive when the dog is worked in the situation in which he is supposed to be worked, then why do people continue to knowingly breed from dogs which exhibit it?  Even if we're not entirely sure of the "acceptability" of male-male aggression, why aren't we at least being cautious and trying to eliminate it?  Wouldn't it be a nicer world where all male dogs got on, as long as they were well socialised?

I disagree that HPRs are "harder" than other breeds of gundog, owning HPRs myself and attending events, I have seen many and that would not be my observation.  In fact, they are so soft that traditional gundog handling methods which are routinely used on labs and goldies do not work with them - they would just shut down under the pressure.

I'm trying to think of a mammalian species where males aren't competitive. And I'm wondering why one would expect the domestic dog to be any different ...

Aggression isn't acceptable in any breed irrespective of whether the dog is a stud dog or not

We had three active stud dogs here at one time all living in the house(& yes they were all health tested etc) & non of them were aggressive towards each other or any other dog, if they had been they would never have been used at stud.

There is no excuse & I would never own a dog whose father was male to male aggressive irrespective of breed

GSP are not a "hard"temperamented breed & I have met a good few of all sorts of bloodlines(local gamekeeper uses them as well as the show dogs & pets I have met

Goldens cannot even be treated as Labs in training as they would just "shut down " as you put it. Maybe you are thinking on FT lines which as far as I can ascertain are a  bit harder having boarded a couple and would not do so again. They were hyper and disrupted all the other dogs. Temp not what I would wish. Just my experience.
I have seen aggression ...in some lines...in HPR breeds.
I totally  agree with all the rest you say. I feel that there is aggression  in some lines and as you say ..it is definitly passed on. As you also say, it is dog/dog agression, not people type.

In Germany the native HPR breeds (GSP's, GWP's, GLP's, LM's, SM's, Weimaraners) are required to be 'sharper' than we would wish them to be here as they are used in 'vermin' control (Fox, wildcat, boar etc.) and so have to be very fearless to stand up to this animals they have been tracking, maybe wounded after the shot.    You can find that dogs imported from Germany won't display the temperaments we are used to here, indeed my own breed can certainly be a lot more hard work than they already are and I believe, that German bred Weimaraners are very sharp indeed.  

I agree and I believe the dogs are what we make them. If they are bred for vermin /fox/wild pig then of course they will be harder and would need to be as our dogs would either think they were for playing with retrieving and as our breed require a "soft mouth retrieve" they would be useless in such a situation. Many HPR's have "battle scars and are no penilised for them in the show ring. They are bred for a specipic reason to start with and so it goes on. Some make good pets , some do not. Some are arrogent and are a little aggressive , some are not. Just like humans!
ONCE  AGAIN>>>Horses for courses!!
Think we have worn this thread out.?

Actually, on the continent HPRs are not required to kill any animal as part of any formal test.  They are required to retrieve a dead fox, but not to kill it.  I believe that, in times past, they used to have to kill a fox - but this was quite some time ago. 

Seeing as we in the UK used to use gadzillions of Staffies as fighting dogs in bull pits and we now don't necessarily see them as being any more aggressive than most other breeds, I'm not sure how relevant the fact that HPRs once killed foxes is. 

They are not and never have been required to kill wild boar or wildcats.  A certain amount of courage is required for them to confront boar and be involved on a boar shoot, but they do not despatch the boar.  They are required in some countries to track wounded game, then to lie down by it and bay for the handler to come and despatch the game, but again they do not despatch it.

There is also a difference between a dog being prepared to courageously stand its ground against a wild animal which it has learnt will be aggressive towards it, and a dog which actually starts fights with members of its own species, which do not smell like prey animals and which are not being hunted.

123,

If you read what I've written I've not stated they have to kill but after tracking an injured wild boar who still might be quite a fearsome sight, it wouldn't be for any dogs without some 'strength of character'.

Totally agree, but I think there is an intrinsic difference between a dog willing to defend itself against animals of another species and dogs which fight only with one sex of their own species. 

Can you help me think of a mammalian species where the males never fight each other, even to breed? Even prey animals do - stallions, stags etc can inflict quite nasty injuries on each other, and even buck rabbits will! When you start to consider the predatory animals as well ...

Is it not a territorial thing as well.  When we were at training classes my dog was fine with a lot of other dogs in the same paddock but if one turned up halfway through a class and walked through the gate she would bark at them.  I might be totally wrong but just an idea - do dogs claim ground if they were there first?

Agree with you Jeangenie, it is survival of the fittest in the animal kingdom and usually the strongest, younger males are the ones that get to mate the females of any species.

Probably why some male dogs with rumble with each other?

Unfortunately this depends very much on the species.  Different species cooperate with others of their species to different extents.  Wolves, in the wild, do not have such severe fights over breeding rights - the alpha wolves only need to posture and growl and very very rarely is an all-out attack launched against another healthy wolf. 

Wolves need each other to hunt as a pack and therefore it would be counterproductive for them to fight amongst themselves.  Yes, there may be growling and posturing but very rarely anything beyond that.

In addition, it is a widely known fact now that there is much more difference between wolves and domestic dogs than previously thought.  In fact, domestic dogs cannot easily be compared to any wild animals as we have changed them so much through selective breeding.  If we can breed in strangely coloured coats, weird shaped faces and so on, then I don't see why we can't have also bred out aggression.  Just one small example - female wolves come into heat once a YEAR, not once every 6 months as domestic dogs do.  If we can have changed something as fundamental as that, I think it makes almost no sense to compare dogs to wolves.

>the alpha wolves only need to posture and growl

Yes, which is what many males dogs do, and people consider it to be 'aggression'. But how about the lower-ranking wolves - the ones that are driven out from the pack?

They usually leave to make up their own packs.

I don't imagine they determine ranking by playing 'stone, paper, scissors' though! ;) :D

Late reply as I was busy.
Sorry, when I said they were bred to hunt fox, vermin , hog etc I did not mean the dogs killed them.  I meant they hunted for them, then pointed ..to show the Hunters (guns) where the prey was. When shot  they would retrieve game. Hence the HPR. If it was a runner-- Just wounded,.. then the dog would be required to track and hold/corner until the gun arrived. Cannot see the Retrievers of any sort or Spaniels do this. But then they are not bred for it. and now we are back to Horses for Courses.
Think we are going round in circles now.

Archer and I have the dame breed, adn we expect our dogs to be well mannered,a dn males that would get on fine with other males in the park, or even at their trainign classes or males they know may wel spark up with strange males showinging off in the showring setting.

As a breed they have to have a bold cahracter to hunt independently of their handler a dangerous and large quarry, so self assurance and pride are definately traits that are necessary.

Dogs of too soft a nature have been found to be no good for hunting, they often return to the handler for reasurance too often etc.

In the showring in Norway the males are set up to show off against each other, and can get wquite noisy about it, but are expected to behave reasonably outside the ring among their fellows unless unduly provoked.

>Some of the stud dogs she has spotted at shows and in working situations grumble and growl at other entire males.  If other entire males get too close to them, they will have a go at them

Going back to the OP I would say that this aggression you are hearing about is 2nd hand.  This is not to say that the lady looking for a stud is not telling the truth but how many is "some"?  Are we talking about 3/4 out of 20 or so that she has seen?  Are they all up to stud? What does she mean by grumbling?  My dog sometimes makes what I would call "grumbling" noises to me but she is actually just "talking" like Spotty dog if anyone here can remember that far back, there is no aggression at all.  She might have witnessed dogs growling but exactly what were the circumstances.  I don't think you can take the instances out of context and certainly you need to know how many she had seen showing "aggression"

Well, I would hope that most male dogs of most breeds are not aggressive in any situations.  But as I don't own males, and never have because it would be a pain with bitches coming into season etc, I don't know if this is true.

By "some" she explicitly told me of several occurrences and I was actually with her for 2 of them.

The thing is - is there such a qualitative difference between a dog which growls and a dog which attempts to leap on another dog?

Perhaps a dog which growled would in fact leap on the other dog if the other dog were standing closer to it? 

I mean - you know about the qualitative versus quantitative thing - If something is qualitatively different it is like comparing an orange and an apple - the two things are, in quality, fundamentally different.  If something is quantatively different, it's like comparing a little apple with a big apple - the two things are fundamentally the same, just more or less, bigger or smaller.

Applied here:  Many people here seem to be saying that growling and an all-out-attack are qualitatively different - that there is no relationship between one and the other, and that just because your dog postures and growls doesn't make it ANY MORE LIKELY to launch an all-out-attack than a completely non-aggressive dog.  Why aren't growling and an all-out-attack actually just quantitively different??  What if dogs begin by growling and then move to an attack - either in one encounter, or over a broader period of time?

>The thing is - is there such a qualitative difference between a dog which growls and a dog which attempts to leap on another dog?

Of course there is. Just as there's a difference between a person says "Excuse me, you're bothering me" to someone, and one who lays into the other with a baseball bat! :D

the first would be assertive, which I certainly expect from a male, and from bitches also, I don't think doormats are what is called for in our breed.

My girls don't fight, yet they can make it quite plain when the advances of importunate males or youngstersa re not wnate, usually a quelling look is enough, or a raised lip to thsoe with no manners.