Hello,
just woundered if you could help me with this one, i talked to a breeder who said she had placed a breeding and export restriction on her pups, but they could be lifted if needed i know of the export restriction but is there a restriction in place to stop you breeding (getting the pups registered) Someone else told me that the kc no longer alowed this restriction? I'm confused, not being a breeder myself?
Thankyou.

Hi, this restriction "progeny not eligible for registration" is very often used by responsible breeders.  All the pups I sell have this restriction on the KC registrations.  Some breeders will list the conditions that have to be met for the endorsement to be lifted.  Do you have any intention of breeding?  If not, it doesn't matter at all.

I am unsure, but i like to know everything before i buy a dog and is not a decision i make lightly.  I was intrested in this particular one as the parents have had the relevent tests, the father is a champion himself and i would like to have a go at showing? Thankyou for clearing that one up for me.

Can you tell me why a breeder will get a buyer to sign a document to say that they won't breed from the puppy they have just bought. Is it because they know there may be a problem in that line? I thought if someone pays a fair bit of money they can breed. We bought a Cocker Spaniel puppy..£500 and had to sign this agreement. No real problem for us, as we only want a pet, but now I am asking myself why? can't we breed.

There are many reasons. The puppy may have a mismark or condition that, while it won't affect its ability to enjoy a good happy life as a family pet, shouldn't be passed on. Many excellent breeders automatically put this endorsement on all the puppies in the litter but are usually prepared to lift the restriction when the pup has grown and turned into a good example of the breed and has passed all its health tests. :)

Hi Niamh, I very much doubt that it has anything to do with "problems in the line", more likely to be to make sure that certain conditions are met before breeding is considered, perhaps to stop people turning bitches into breeding machines.  I want the puppies that I sell to go to homes where they are going to be much loved pets, loved for themselves, not for what they can earn their new owner.

We were quite happy to sign, but it was only when another breeder said that he didn't agree with this, and maybe I should as myself did our breeder have anything to hide..I did worry a bit. I agree that some people do use bitches purely as breeding machines. Our little girl is only 16 weeks, totally spoiled, and a very much loved member of the family. Thank you for answering my question.

>when another breeder said that he didn't agree with this, and maybe <

I think this is terrible of another breeder to say this and someone saying this is the last person on earth I would personally trust in a decision.

Maybe they don't care what happens to their puppies but the breeder you bought your pup from certainly does.

I would say I think you are lucky you bought from who you have and not from the breeder with the comments.

I also put endorsements on my pups. there are a number of reasons for this. I have known pups get re sold later in life for whatever reasons, only to end up somewhere unscrupulous & bred from in an irresponsible way.  Sometimes even the most innocent nicest pet owner can be talked ino breeding by an idiot, someone who knows nothing about the breed but tells them "t hey ought to breed" and although i always try to maintain a good releationship with all my pup owners for their whole lives, sometimes people simply lose contact & next thing you know there could be some poor (quality) pups out there with your breeding behind them! Luckily not yet happened to me but i know several to whom it has & its very bad for the breed, & for the breeder concerned. Also because there are a no. of health issues that may well not show up until later in a dogs life (dam, sire and puppy) and it would be helpful to know that should such a problem , mainly epilepsy/uap/spondylitis show up at later date in perhaps the parent or offspring, then hopefully there is a good chance of helping prevent its spread in our tiny genepool.

£500 and had to sign this agreement.

With all due respect you didn't have to.

Endorsements are very good at the initial puppy enquiry for sorting out the potential puppy breeders.

They are used for many reasons though and I doubt it is anything to do with the line unless something had just been spotted in that particiual litter such as a ressessive gene fault.

Decent breeders work had to create a line, showing or working and investing a lot of time, effort and thousands of pounds of money. Why would they hand that to someone on a plate without caution.

Not puppy comes with a 100% guarantee of it's future prospect so it should really be regarding almost as pet  quality or show/work potential till otherwise proven.

A buyer as to put the work in , prove themselves and the dog worthy of being bred from and having something of quality that is useful to the breed or the breed line.

Thank you everyone for answering my question, and I fully understand the reasoning behind the endorsement. I should maybe have said I was Asked to sign the agreement, not Made to. When I bought my Ragdoll Cat 4 years ago, aged 16 weeks, he was actually neuterd when we got him, and I didn't have a problem with that. So thanks again everyone. P.S I have found this site very helpful as this is the first dog we have had...love to read all the comments

I am pleased you have Niamh.. just wanted to add that real genuine breeders even if they put endorsements on those who have the breed interest it heart will lift any endorsement if you prove yourself and prove any dog is worthy of breeding from. They way it should be.

These people who think it is a god given entitlement are the ones the endorsements help protect the breed from.

My first 2 show puppies were bought at a good price with endorsements. I trusted the breeder and was happy to prove my intention , They now trust me.

Think people sometimes forget they are living and breathing creatures. Good breeding is not for the faint hearted.

Hi Carolineeck, if you explain this to the breeder, ask her what exactly you will need to do to have the endorsements lifted - usually all the relevant health tests for the breed, perhaps a score below a given number for the hip score - and have this in writing (I expect she has a contract which details all of this), then you shouldn't have a problem.  Am a allowed to ask the breed?

yes a cavalier king charles

Well then this shows the breeder is being responsible.  this breed are a favourite among puppy farmers to exploit (and registered pups cost more than those wtihout papers) there are a number of health conditions that need to be tested for, and studied within the lines in order to even attempt to breed responsibly.

Was the 2 dogs you already have not show prospect pups I thought you were breeding these.   I had thought you had been showing them already when you said you had planned to breed from them.  I am confused now.

There used to be two more restrictions which the Kennel club have now scrapped. 

One was not eligible for Exhibition, the other was name unchangeable.

As JG says the other two are uysed by responsible breeders to help safeguard the welfare of the pups and their breed to prevent irrewsponsibly bred pups being registered, adn from pups being exported and registerd in foreign countries without the breeders knowledge.

i know i will get shot down for this- but i sometimes feel that some breeders- who are charging £1000 or more for a puppy, are putting on breeding restrictions so they dont have competetion when selling  puppies later on. For £1000 i feel that you should have no restrictions and can still be vetted as a good owner. Some breeders say they only breed to keep their line going and keep a puppy, but do they give the rest of the litter away?? no, they sell them. I dont care what anyone says, all breeders may have many reasons for breeding but at the end of the day- they are making money. Yes a few will say they make no profit- only one puppy or a c section perhaps but that is usually an exception. With the time and commitment and love that goes into a litter and the huge expense, i would feel peeved if i didnt make any money. but thats just my opinion!

Brainless, i do not have a bitch puppy, just to clear up what you put on my other post! I don't know how you came to that conclusion! I'm looking for a boy anyway.  I thought this board was here to help people and discuss things not put people down.  I agree with sallyk if they are responible in the first place in who they pass their puppies onto then why place restrictions? I

Hi Sallyk, you pay your money and you make your choice!  I choose to endorse all the puppies that I sell, that is my choice.  Of course there are people who just breed for the money - part of the reason I endorse, I don't want them getting hold of mine!

I put restrictions on my pups to try and stop people buying dogs and bitches to mate together to produce puppies to sell!  There is so much more to breeding quality pups.  And I wouldn't want one of my bitches put at risk by someone without experience mating her.

I have no problem with lifting them for experienced breeders who know what they're doing. :)

Great, but how can they become an experience breeder, if you won't lift the restriction?

If the owner has gone to the time, trouble and expense of having the dog tested for the breed-relevant conditions, and the dog has been independently assessed as being a reasonably good example, then most breeders are happy to lift the restriction and will give the owner all the help and encouragement they need. :)

As well as being a good example of the breed, I would also want to know that the owner has succifient experience to take care of my bitch through mating, pregnancy, whelping and knew how to rear a litter of puppies correctly and had the time to dedicate to them. 
I would also want to know that they had sufficient experience to be able to help the new puppy owners should they have any questions about their pups and the breed.  Difficult for a one dog owner if they haven't spent at least a couple of years, mixing with and learning from experienced breeders.  In my breed that would be difficult for a pet owner who didn't attend shows.

I dont think any responsible breeder would refuse to lift the restriction if the dog/bitch was health tested with satisfactory results: the dog/bitch was of good enough quality to be bred from and the owner of the dog/bitch was sensible enough to do the "right thing" by the breed. One of my last litter went to such a person, and had I known when I registered the litter that she would fall in love with one of the puppies, I would not even have put the endorsement on, because I trust her and know she would do no matings without approval of those who have much more experience in the breed than she does.

so Ridgielover, without being rude may i ask why you are breeding? assuming its not for money?

Carolineckc, the other reason for breeding restrictions are that believe it or not there are people out there that pose as loving pet owners but are in fact purchasing that puppy to sell on to puppy farmers, or even sell abroad for more money.  There are some countries which breeders would not sell to and these people see the opportunity to sell to them knowing that these people want better stock to breed from.  These restrictions are one way to be able to ensure that this cannot happen (or shouldn't happen).  Making sure that your puppies go to the correct homes is hard enough because people can tell lies and be very plausible.  If these type of people enquire about a puppy then more than likely they will be put off by these restrictions.

Hi Sallyk, yes you can ask why I breed.  When I breed its because I want to keep something myself to live with and show and maybe, if it's good enough (which my last one isn't) to breed on from.  I breed because I think my dogs can contribute something worthwhile to the gene pool.  I have bred champions, a top stud dog and much loved and typical family pets. I had my last litter in 2002, the one before that in 1994.  I have bred 6 litters in over 20 years of owning RRs.
In return, Sallyk, may I ask you the same question?

Ditto Ridgielover,

I think this is what splits the "men from the boys".

Thanks, Blue

yes ridgielover you can ask me the same question. I have bred one litter for two reasons, one was i had a long line of people wanting puppies, sold them all to lovely homes i keep in touch with and still have people waiting for puppies. the second reason is harder to explain but it has to do with my bitch who adored being a mum and who had a broken heart each false pregnancy she had following each season with no puppies.

yes ridgielover you can ask me the same question. I have bred one litter for two reasons, one was i had a long line of people wanting puppies, sold them all to lovely homes i keep in touch with and still have people waiting for puppies. the second reason is harder to explain but it has to do with my bitch who adored being a mum and who had a broken heart each false pregnancy she had following each season with no puppies.

Sorry sallyk but none of those reasons are good enough reasons to breed!!

>the second reason is harder to explain but it has to do with my bitch who adored being a mum and who had a broken heart each false pregnancy she had following each season with no puppies.<

Nonsense. Dogs are not like humans.  broken heart :rolleyes::rolleyes:

This is the last reason you would breed from a bitch well that a money

"yes ridgielover you can ask me the same question. I have bred one litter for two reasons, one was i had a long line of people wanting puppies, sold them all to lovely homes i keep in touch with and still have people waiting for puppies. the second reason is harder to explain but it has to do with my bitch who adored being a mum and who had a broken heart each false pregnancy she had following each season with no puppies"

Both of those reasons sound straight from an article on reasons  why "not" to breed your dog.What would have happened to the dog if she'd lost her pups? :(

whats wrong with breeding a litter if people are waiting for puppies? if the bitch is a good show dog, mated to a champion stud dog, has no health issues(  my breed doesnt) people came from all over uk to buy my pups, perhaps everyone would tell me why they breed theirs?

I can't answer that as I would never take on the resonsibility of breeding anything.Your initial post didn't indicate that you had shown your dog or that she was free from genetic diseases so I assumed that she was a pet.(what breed is she by the way,i have never heard of a breed that had no health problems whatsoever)
Having a waiting list of puppy buyers is not a good enough reason and believing you are helping your dogs maternal instinct is not a reason at all.I can tell you why I chose my dogs breeder,she was very experienced,knowledgeable and realistic about the breed but mostly because she had done all the relevant health checks,belonged to the breed club, gave lifetime back up and produced wonderful dogs.

i also belong to the breed club and have offered life time back up for my puppies. she is a standard schnauzer and no, they do not need any health tests unlike minis which need eye screening and giants that need eye screens and hips. If they had needed testing, i would of course have done the tests the same as i wouldnt buy an untested puppy if testing were required. How do you think your breeder became experienced and knowledeable in the first place? I will bow out gracefully now as i know many members here object to anyone breeding dogs and i dont want to start that argument again.

Breeders generally become knowledgeable by having a mentor in their chosen breed, who in turn was taught by a previous expert. A good breeder learns from other people's mistakes! ;)

duplicate post

Exacty,JG has answered that question :)

According to this website: http://www.upei.ca/~cidd/intro.htm they need hip scoring and eye testing.

standard schnauzers are not required to be hip tested or eye tested and if you dont believe me- speak to the lady that runs the breed club. The web site you have shown is listing things that could go wrong with any breed at any time. if this were the case all breeds would be screened for all defects, which may happen in the future but is not done yet.

Well the website was correct for my breeds and for what they need testing for, all 3 of them that I keep -if anything one of the breeds has one genetic problem OMITTED there that should be checked for prior to breeding.

i repeat, standard schnauzers do not need testing for eyes or hips or i would test them. please enquire at the breed club or the kc as you dont seem to want to take my word for it.
quote from the lady that runs the breed club when someone asked on the forum about testing---Only Miniatures and Giants need to have their eye tests done.  Standard Schnauzers have no known inherited problems.

It is interesting that the breed club does not advocate hip scoring. Having taken a look at the latest BMS scores (published by the BVA) - 25 Standard Schnauzers have been hip scored and the scores range from 6 - 70 with the BMS being 23. This is a rather high BMS for a breed that has no problems with HD! In my breed (whom are tested for HD) our BMS is only 13 (and the median is 11).

Indeed. Folk can hardly say there's not a problem with the breed if they are not scoring to find out!! :rolleyes:

Head in the sand ring a bell ;-)

Indeed. In my breed the MBS is 10 and median 9 and we certainly hip score.

That hip score is a lot worse than my breed and our breed club insists that all dogs are hip scored and eye tested before being used.  We don't have many problems as such, but responsible breeders of any breed would test.  The worst score in Standard Schnauzers is nearly double our worst and we've had more dogs done!!

Those breeds that say they have no problems are just putting their heads in the sand.  I'm sure that if they hipscored their dogs that every breed would have dogs coming up with severe HD.

UNTIL EVERY BREED HAS HEALTH TESTS I DON'T BELIEVE THAT ANY ONE CAN SAY THAT THEIR BREED HAS NO PROBLEMS !

> Standard Schnauzers have no known inherited problems. <

is that maybe because they are not tested for???

surely its just good practice to hip and eye test dogs of all breeds before breeding????  and also the appropriate other tests for each individual breed??  surely all breeds can suffer form HD ????