Echo - The problem is that there is a difference between this situation and that is that your "new owner" echo, hasn't done any research.  They have been sold a diet by the vet who's on commission, and they have not researched that diet choice in other ways, by reading about nutrition, by asking questions on forums like this, by checking out the ingredients and finding out what they are and the implications of them.  And then doing the same for the Arden Grange, and THEN making a decision.  If they had done this, I don't think they would have switched to Science Plan! 

Therefore it's not the switching of diet in itself which is to be discouraged, but lack of research and switching on a whim, thoughtlessly.  Surely all kerri is doing here is her best to research this as fully as she can?

kerri - Don't worry, you are doing the right thing to become a fully informed owner by researching this as much as you can and then making your own decision about it.  Unfortunately other people seem to feel that this should be some kind of dictatorship situation, where new owners are obliged to continue to feed whatever the breeder was feeding.  Personally I find that insulting to the intelligence and independence of the new owner, who should be able to make informed decisions about what to feed their dog.

Thanks 123.  I was starting to feel a little overwhelmed with some comments.  I have had dogs before so has my husband but they have always been from one of the unwanted litters of the heinz variety!

But this time we decided to take the big step to get a ped dog, and wanted to look into every aspect possible so we could visit the pups with as many questions as possible  (probably overdoing it a little).

Going on Saturday and hopefully the breeder will run though again what food she recommends and I'll keep you updated.
Kind Regards
Kerri

<< Don't you think it is a bit cheeky to recommend your choices over and above the breeder's? If I were selling the puppy in question I'd be somewhat miffed at someone who doesn't have a clue about my breed, my puppies or my adults trying to dictate what should or should not be fed. >>

Wow, that's some ego you have going there.

Not really - just breed knowledge; one line in particular. :)

Not at all Keithf. 
If the breeder is experienced, (and if the poster didn't think that she was, then I'm assuming that she wouldn't be buying a puppy from her?) then it's a matter of knowing her breed in general and her line in particular!!

If any of my puppy purchasers particularly wanted to feed a different food to me, I could happily recommend what I considered to be suitable dry, tinned, home cooked or BARF food for my breed.  I could also tell them what has caused many problems in the breed, although other breeds have thrived very well eating.

I accept that you know the dog you are selling, but each dog is different as is the environment in which it will be brought up.

In the same way as bringing up children, we all have different ideas, that does not make us right or wrong, just different.

I changed my dogs diet to JWB then to Naturediet because my research led me to believe that a natural food would be better for my dog than one with chemicals used to replace natural goodness.

I try to feed my daughter the same way.................................when she lets me !

I also believe that feeding a dog a moist food is more natural, dogs digestive systems have developed eating food with a reasonably high moisture content.

But these are only my opinions, having them does not make me right.

A breeder is without doubt an 'expert' but being an expert does not make somebody right, history is littered with experts who ended up with egg on thier faces.

I just feel that, whilst I would be happy to hear a breeders views, I would still research and might come to a different view and it is I who has to live with the dog. For a breeder to get in a huff that a buyer would not adhere to thier diet plan just seems a bit narrow minded.

In the longterm yes, you may think a change of diet is called for. :) But when you first bring a puppy home (as in the original post ;)) it's sensible to stick with what the breeder has raised the puppies on to avoid too much unnecessary stress on the individual.

If you look at my original advice, which sparked this outburst from Val, I did say that the OP should keep the puppy on whatever food the breeder has been feeding for at least a week after taking the puppy home....

I'm aware of that, but Keithf implies that's not important, and that it's egotistical of a breeder to suggest that ...

Keith, there are some foods that have been detrimental to my breed, who have sensitive digestive systems, although mine are much tougher than most, they are best kept on one suitable food.  Some dried foods give almost instant skin problems!

As I've said, I would be happy to suggest food in whatever sort of feeding a buyer would want to use.  What I don't want is to get a call, as I have had, about a 3 year old bitch who has had liquid faeces for 3 months due to the owner thinking that she was feeding 'the best' by feeding fresh, rich and different food every day and wondering why the bitch wasn't thriving!!  She could do it with her Irish Wolfhound and didn't know that she couldn't do that with a Rough Collie!  Her Vet was just pumping the bitch full of antibiotics and the bitch was either being starved or fed on an unsuitable diet for 3 months!  She died 10 days after I was asked for advice!

The average pet home has experience of their pet dog.  Suffice to say that my experience is more extensive that that!  I have never said that an owner should feed a food that they are happy with.  My recommendation is that any query about a dog should firstly be discussed with the breeder.

I understand what you say about experts!  I don't believe a word that the medical profession or the government tell me! :D  I also understand what you say about children.  We all do it differently, and the parents who made them are responsible for them.  But I am responsible for bringing each and every one of my puppies into the world, and I want what I believe is best for them.  And therefore I now chose homes who will be guided in the right direction to that end, not families who are talking about changing the food before they even know what the pup is being fed!  :D

I'm with you having a different opinion.  I just know what sort of home I now chose for my pups. :D

I've just though of another one keith!  About 7 years ago I had a phone call from a couple who'd had a pup from me and he was now 7 months old.  They had sent me face on pictures and he looked lovely if a little narrow across the chest.  It turned out that he'd not had a consistant tummy since they'd had him, but the Vet was looking after him and so they weren't worried before, but now they thought that he looked a bit thin.  It didn't cross my mind that they wouldn't be feeding according to the diet sheet that I provided so I travelled from Berkshire to Cornwall to see the dog.  He was soooo thin that he looked like an RSPCA case - with a beautiful head!  On his first appointment for vaccination, the Vet had told them to feed a tin of P Chum and nothing else!!  They had done as they were told and at 7 months he was now on 2/3 tins!!!!  You just can't do that to a Rough Collie!!!!!!

Same thing happened to a first time dog owner in Wales.  Even though I give a 6 page booklet about how to rear/train/vaccinate etc, the owners listen to the Vet.  Same recommendation - same result!  This lady listened and the dog improved.  She has since had 2 more males pups from me - she shows them - and with these two, she has followed instructions and both are half as large again as the first one who had the poor start in life!

What more can I say???

I agree with Val K/F. Nothing to do with ego at all, purely a breeder wanting her pup fed on a diet they know works for their dogs ;)

I wanted a male from a particular line, I got him on the condition I fed him the same diet as they fed for at least the first 12mths of his life. My choice, I wanted him so agreed & was happy to do so :) 

Its called experience & if you`re not prepared to go along with the breeders way of rearing for their pups that they have bred & reared for maybe more yrs than you`ve lived its best to get a pup from another breeder who maybe doesn`t have such exacting standards  :)

Are these dogs with such severe >sensitive< digestive systems appropriate to be bred from? Healthy,robust dogs should be able to be fed on all manner of foods,the larger the variety,the better IMHO.Personally i wouldnt buy from a breeder who said my dogs can only thrive on this brand,this for me would send alarm bells ringing.

I have only bred 2 litters in the past,and i fed my pups on a variety of different foods and encouraged the new owners to do the same,one of the reasons being so their systems get used to a variety of foods and i strongly disagree with feeding a dog the same food for its entire life,this,to me,is not a healthy option,there is no one food on this earth that provides everything for every dog.I would not have sold my pups to anyone who wanted to feed brand x and nothing else for the dogs life,or even a predominant diet of brand x with a little bit of variety!Feeding the same brand exclusively is setting the dog up for disaster IMO. I guess if i fed my kids the exact same food since birth and then all of a sudden changed to something else,they would have digestive troubles aswell,but i dont know of any parent that would inflict this kind of feeding regime on their children,dogs are no different.A variety of different foods is the key to a healthy dog and can only encourage a healthy digestive tract :)

i wouldnt buy from a breeder who said my dogs can only thrive on this brand,this for me would send alarm bells ringing.

That's not what I've said at all. :)  I've said (again) "As I've said, I would be happy to suggest food in whatever sort of feeding a buyer would want to use"  but there are some that have proved to be unsuitable for a large number of dogs in our breed.

Colitis appears to be a problem in the breed.  I've not had that problem.  I would agree that thought should be given to breeding from dogs who appear to have a particular sensitivity in this area.  My own dogs are fed a variety of raw, dried, tinned and home cooked.  BUT there are some brands that would give even MY dogs a problem and that is what I would want to avoid for any of my pups. :D

The bitch who died was being given 2lb of liver with half a cup of rice one day.  Then cooked sheeps head and greens then next and 2lb of lights the following day and a little pasta the next.  And she was fed this sort of diet for 3 months being treated bt her Vet, who also didn't ask what she was being fed!  I certainly couldn't feed that to any of mine without having a runny mess to clear up!  There are certain tinned foods that if fed exclusively AND without mixer (I was corrrected by one owner because as she said it does say on the tin that it is a complete food!) that would be guaranteed to give most dogs a problem. 

In the same way sara that you say "I would not have sold my pups to anyone who wanted to feed brand x and nothing else for the dogs life,or even a predominant diet of brand x with a little bit of variety", I wouldn't sell a pup to an owner who won't be guided by 20+ years of experience in the breed and a lifetime experience in dogs and insisted on making mistakes that have already been made many times by others in the past. :)

Val, sorry but your take on this seems to be "if only everyone in my breed did it my way, then they'd have no problems", and this does seem a tad egotistical to me.

The fact is - presumably you got your dogs from a breeder or several breeders originally, and those breeders got their dogs from other breeders.  Presumably again some of the puppies you have bred and sold might now have had litters?  And those litters been sold? 

My point is that you don't have a little microcosm whereby "your dogs" are constitutionally different to all "other dogs" in your breed.  And if you accept that you do not, are you saying that all dogs in your breed should be fed on the food which YOU feed???  Sorry, but again that seems egotistical and dictatorial.

It is not an automatic assumption that just because a breeder has been chosen by a buyer, the buyer automatically respects the breeder's opinions on all subjects. 

The breeder my last dog came from had made up both the sire and dam of the litter to Sh Chs and obviously was very experienced in showing, but she knew nothing about training, she smacked the dogs on the nose for puppy biting, she was paper training them and she fed them on Pedigree.  Just as I knew before I even picked up the puppy that I would not be paper training and I would not be smacking the pup on the nose, I knew it would not be fed on Pedigree. 

When you get a pup at 7 wks you can train it and mould it into whatever you want.  What you cannot do is replace the genes for the dog physically or for the ability to work.  If you can see from the pedigree that the sire and dam have the required genes, then I believe you are making a good choice even if you disagree with other aspects of what the breeder does.  You don't have to find a breeder who does 100% of everything exactly as you would, because chances are you won't find one which does all that and also has a litter with the right genetic make-up.  You wouldn't in my breed anyway. 

In addition, I know many people who don't actually breed themselves (myself included), yet have been in their breed for many years and have had many many dogs over the years from one breed.  To suggest that these experienced owners should be feeding what their breeders feed, and phoning up the various different breeders their dogs have come from in consultation on diet changes is a bit ludicrous when they find themselves equalling their breeders' successes in the ring and field.

Certain breeds have different requirements, though, both medically and nutritionally. Medically all of the collie breeds are put at risk if given ivermectin - why shouldn't their digestive systems be different too? Dalmatians - certain lines in particular - are prone to urinary problems so shouldn't be given foods high in purines which, among other things, means offal should be avoided as much as possible. For someone who is unaware of the facts to imply that this specialist knowledge is irrelevant is very risky.

You can't help those who don't want to hear JG!! :D  They only read what they want to read, hear what they want to hear and know it all anyway! 

Ivermectin is a good example.  I wonder if they would say that we shouldn't be breeding from dogs that are sensitive to it?  It has killed many collies of all breeds.

I'll concentrate my time on those who do want to learn......... and be grateful for the carefully chosen owners of my puppies. :D

What I said was:

"you don't have a little microcosm whereby "your dogs" are constitutionally different to all "other dogs" in your breed"

The important words being "in your breed" - I'm fully aware that different breeds have different propensities towards different illnesses, my own included.  However, that goes for all dogs in the breed and not those owned by one person.

Yes I do have particularly healthy Rough Collies who don't see the Vet from one years' end to the next - good health it's one of the things that I breed for, second only to temperament!!  But it needs to be supported by good husbandry and experience too.

I shall waste no more time on your arguing for the sake of it.

I was going to stay out of this discussion as it's already a bit heated but, you're assuming all breeders have the same high feeding standards as you. What if the breeder recommended pedigree? mine did. I stuck to their recommended diet to the letter until he settled in and got his first check-up at the vets. He smelled doggy and his anal glands were prone to blockage. I knew this wasn't the best diet because I did a lot of research before getting a dog. There also weren't separate bedding and soiling areas in the nest so I knew house training might be harder. You might wonder why I bought from this breeder. His temperament was wonderful. Both the mother and grandmother lived with the breeder and they were equally wonderful - which was the most important quality for me. The  hips scores were really low, elbows 0 and clear eyes for both parents. I can't get back to the OP but isn't it wise for them to be informed about diet in case the breeder isn't as knowledgable as you.

>isn't it wise for them to be informed about diet in case the breeder isn't as knowledgable as you.

We don't yet know what the breeder advises - in the original post Kerrib says that it's going to be written down (exactly in accordance with the KC Code of Ethics). It's pointless suggesting alternatives when nobody knows what's going to be recommended.

>However, that goes for all dogs in the breed and not those owned by one person.

That would hold true if one person had a group of dogs from a random selection of bloodlines within the breed. However many breeders tend to work with a single line, and if that line has an increased tendency towards a particular condition or intolerance, their knowledge and experience could save a newly-homed puppy a lot of avoidable discomfort. You see, a familial line is a 'microcosm within the breed', as you put it! If an owner finds particular food (to get back to the point of this thread) that the breeder found suited that line best difficult to obtain, then the breeder would be the best person to ask for advice on suitable alternatives.

If you look back at almost any pedigree, you see that previous generations were not of that particular line, or involved outcrosses.  Otherwise there would be a very irresponsible breeder to be doing so much inbreeding.... 

Your comments show clearly that you have little understanding about breeding.:rolleyes:

I thought you weren't going to stoop to reply any more to this thread? 

No one can own all the dogs back through their dog's pedigree for generations.  Dogs must, to some extent, be bred to other lines somewhere in their pedigree.  Who's to say what qualities are inherited along with that breeding, including digestive health (or lack of)? 

You/one cannot make blanket statements about the digestive health of a line, because a line (anyone's) is not entirely separate from any other line.....

Just as in a litter you might have a throw-back to a physical attribute of a dog of many generations ago, so a puppy can be born with a digestive tolerance or lack of tolerance just like that of a dog in its pedigree many generations ago.  To assert that you and only you know the foods which all your puppies can digest best because your line is so separate to any other is ridiculous - unless you are creating your own separate breed.

Just because I don't breed, doesn't necessarily mean that I have little understanding of breeding.... I choose my puppies carefully and I carefully study the pedigrees of their parents.  When/if I have a bitch of suitable quality, then I will breed from her and I take that responsibility seriously.

The truth is that puppies are individuals and so are their new owners.

Oh dear.  I'll post for the benefit of anyone who is interested in breeding!  I wouldn't like them to be given misleading information. :rolleyes:

When you bring fresh blood into your line, it is important to know the dogs that you're dealing with.  It's not just a matter of chosing a dog who may match your bitch in temperament and looks.  It's about finding a dog who does all of those things AND you know, because you have met probably 4 - 5 generations of his ancestors over the past 20+ years.  These dogs will have been bred/owned by breeders who have the same honesty, integrity and aims as yourself.  Contrary to the beliefs of some, you don't have to own all the dogs in your pedigree to maintain the qualities that your line is known for.  Therefore any new line that you bring in will maintain and reinforce the qualities that the breeder is aiming to achieve.

That is why when we say 'Chose a dog with a compatible pedigree' it means in every direction.  Temperament, health and quality.  A pedigree is only a collection of names if you don't actually know the dogs named on it.

Like minded breeders share their knowledge honestly.  Those who I suspect are not honest about their dogs I would avoid.  And thank heavens, carefully selected puppy owners are grateful for the happy, healthy pups that they breed and are happy to be guided.

>When/if I have a bitch of suitable quality, then I will breed from her and I take that responsibility seriously.

And your litter will be a continuation of the dog and bitch's familial lines, even though you don't own all the predecessors. You will need to know the history of the individuals behind them, though - whether there has been a higher-than-average number of relatives (not just immediate ancestors, but also their siblings) who've bloated, for example, so you know that there's possibly a weakness in the line and to avoid foods which are implicated in exacerbating the condition.

Therefore you, as a responsible breeder, will no doubt advise the new owners which foods are best for that line, and which should be avoided.

Thanks for the genetics lesson guys but none of this is relevant or applies to what I said above - you cannot "know" how every puppy in a litter will turn out for sure either physically or "digestively".  Therefore you cannot legitimately dictate what they MUST be fed anymore than you can dictate what every dog in the breed ever owned by you or anyone else MUST be fed. 

When/if I have a litter JG, the pups will be sent home with a puppy pack from one particular brand of food, I'm sure - however in the information pack which goes with them will be a list of other alternative brands which I believe are just as good and a caution that no one of these will suit all dogs.  Counting the ones I'd recommend, there are 5 of them, dry only, and 3 wet foods.  That gives puppy owners a choice of 8 foods to feed, and within those foods, many many different flavours or varieties. 

In this way I would hope to encourage them to avoid foods I don't consider to be good quality, such as Pedigree or Bakers, but also enable them to exercise some independence in choice for THEIR puppy.  I would also give them a brief chat about foods when they picked the puppy up, including what to look for in a good food, avoiding artificial preservatives/additives etc - so that, should they take it on themselves to change the food, they may at least try to apply these factors in future.  This is the same protocol which I follow here when people ask advice about foods.

Education is for the good of all, including the new puppy, and I find it weird that someone here should try to close down this subject because a new owner came onto an internet forum to ask advice about food choices.

"If any of my puppy purchasers particularly wanted to feed a different food to me, I could happily recommend what I considered to be suitable dry, tinned, home cooked or BARF food for my breed."

" you cannot legitimately dictate what they MUST be fed "

DUH???????

>the pups will be sent home with a puppy pack from one particular brand of food, I'm sure - however in the information pack which goes with them will be a list of other alternative brands which I believe are just as good and a caution that no one of these will suit all dogs.  Counting the ones I'd recommend, there are 5 of them, dry only, and 3 wet foods.  That gives puppy owners a choice of 8 foods to feed, and within those foods, many many different flavours or varieties. 

That is exactly what Val and I been saying all along! Why take us to task about it when you say you'd do exactly the same? :rolleyes:

>Education is for the good of all, including the new puppy, and I find it weird that someone here should try to close down this subject because a new owner came onto an internet forum to ask advice about food choices.

Nobody's trying to 'close the subject'. People have been saying all along that the breeder is the person to ask for advice. Nobody here even knows what the breeder in the original post is recommending to begin with!

Sorry, that's not my impression of what Val was saying, although you might be saying it.

I'm reading here that Val is saying that if any of her puppy buyers want to change their food, she expects to be called up and consulted.  That's not what I'm saying - sure I'd love it if they wanted to call me up, but I wouldn't expect that of them and I wouldn't choose puppy buyers based on who I feel is going to adhere to my feeding advice. 

Val is also saying that ALL breeders should be consulted if ANY buyer wants to change foods - not just her personally, but kerri and her breeder and any other new owner and breeder out there. 

Like many people have mentioned here, not all breeders will recommend foods which are high quality.  My breeder, as I said above, wanted me to feed Pedigree and told me how "well" her dogs have done on it and what a good food it is.... If I hadn't done any of my own research I would have gone home thinking Pedigree was the best you could get.

Breeders may recommend good foods - or they may not.  New owners who are responsible shouldn't just assume their breeder is recommending good foods but should do their own research and draw their own conclusions. 

On the contrary, Val is against new puppy owners doing their own research and deciding to feed a food which is different to what the breeder is feeding - REGARDLESS of what the food is.  I am not saying the same thing as Val....

Val said:

>I agree that one way of feeding doesn't suit all pups.  And if the recommended doesn't suit a particular pup, then an experienced breeder is the person most suitable to recommend an alternative!! A good breeder knows their lines and over the years will know good and bad foods for their breed.

This is also what you say you would do. Why do you have a problem with it?

>Val is also saying that ALL breeders should be consulted if ANY buyer wants to change foods - not just her personally, but kerri and her breeder and any other new owner and breeder out there. 

No, she's saying that ALL breeders should expect the buyers of their puppies to consult them if they have a query about feeding - or indeed any aspect of care.

Sorry, but I wouldn't be consulting the breeders of my puppies (bar one) for any aspect of care.

I would consult them if I had a showing question though.

I think it's obvious for anyone reading this thread where my opinion differs from Val's, but you go ahead and argue they are synonymous if you want!

If you thought the breeders were such rubbish, I'm at a loss as to know why on earth you'd want one of their puppies!

Onetwothree, a familial 'line' doesn't continually have the same affix - it continues back to the year dot, just like humans. For example, you mother's maiden surname was different to her mother's maiden surname ... same family line, though. And, as in humans, the male surname (like an affix) continues down the generations, but with new genes added every generation - the same line, but no 'inbreeding' at all.

Couldn't agree with you more Sara, mine are fed a range of various foods, and always a different food in the morning to the evening meal, and they thrive on this.

At the moment the menu is Burns Venison & Rice in the morning and Wafcol Salmon & Potato in the evening.  Next on the list is Almo Nature (chicken).