We have had Casper, our rescue Weimaraner for about 5 months now and he really has come on in leaps and bounds in many ways.  However, the main problem is his aggression when it comes to giving things up.  Not resource guarding with toys or food, you can take those off him with no problem, but he steals things - sock, dishcloths, a letter, anything at all and brings it to you.  He will then start growling, eyes wide and very tensed up. If you try to remove what he has he will bite, but will obey commands such as sit and down while still holding on to his prize. We usually ignore this behavior as we have put it down to his attention seeking and the timing between episodes has decreased from several times a day to 3 or 4 times a week.  However, yesterday he got the remote control for the TV and got the back off and proceeded to bring me the batteries.  I had to try to remove them from his mouth and he bit me.  This is the first time he has bitten me, although he has bitten my husband on several occasions.  I just don't know what to do as if he does pick up something dangerous again I am a bit wary of him now.

Will he swap for something less dangerous ?

Daisy

Unfortunately not, he won't budge for biscuits and treats, toys or anything.  As I said, it is wierd that while he has something in his mouth you can tell him to sit and lie down etc and he will do all these things, just will not give up whatever it is he has stolen.

Have you taught him the leave it command, or a drop command for playing with toys? Leave is one of the most useful things you can teach to keep your dog safe. If he learns these with items of less value you could give him the command with one of his stolen treasures. Then he can earn a great reward for doing the right thing.

I agree with Lori, you should teach him a Leave or Give command.  You should never physically have to take anything off a dog as this only encourages guarding.  Please do not push him to the point where he will bite, as the more he does this, the more he will do it in future.  Don't create habits you don't like.  Everything you don't want him to have should be put out of reach, as you would for a new puppy.  Then you should practise Leave or Give with low value objects first.

http://www.ahimsadogtraining.com/handouts/resource-guarding.html

http://www.clickersolutions.com/articles/2002b/objectguarding.htm

Casper will leave on command with everything except the items he steals.  As for moving everything out of his reach - he is 5' tall when he stands on his back legs - he can easily reach worktops, the sink and draining board, window sills, almost everything really, although he is good a lot of the time and won't touch things.

We are at our wits end with him because he is a well trained boy apart from this stealing - he can't be tempted to let go of his 'catch' for praise, treats, toys, anything it seems.

What treats have you tried?

What objects have you tried exchanging for?

The dog doesn't exist that won't give up something for something else either exactly the same or higher value object or food.  You just have to find out what it is.

Personally, I would try clicker training him to do a retrieve.  With this method he will learn to release whatever is in his mouth in order to gain a treat.  You have to do a lot of groundwork first though, charging him up to the clicker and then working on him releasing lower value objects.

You say he will leave everything on command except the items he steals - do you mean Leave is the word you use before he has touched it, or after he has it in his mouth?  Perhaps Leave only works for things he hasn't yet touched or gained possession of, and you need to teach a Give command?

ALong the same lines - perhaps now he's learnt to ignore the 'drop' command under these conditions, it's time to teach a new command - such as a simple 'thank you' - accompanied with a suitable high value reward - remember dogs don't 'taste' as well as we do, but their sense of smell is obviously far better - so go for smell rather than taste when thinking of rewards.  The value of the reward (to the dog) should always reflect the difficulty the dog has in performing the task.  I'd be thinking of something like roast chicken, maybe a touch of added garlic........  Some sources do say garlic is harmful for dogs, but never seem to give qtys.  I know many people who have added garlic to their dogs diets on a regular basis and not seen any ill effects.

How about a training approach - train the people in the house not to leave stuff lying around that could do him damage, and when he does get hold of something, nobody chase him or pay any attention to him.......

We are a lot tidier than we were, abck9fran :D   It is difficult to remove everything that isn't nailed down to a height above 5' though.  We use 'leave' when we want the dogs to leave something alone, and 'drop' when they have something we want them to release, and he really is good at this - unless, as i said it is something he has stolen.  He adores cheese and would usually do anything for a bit, except drop the stolen item.  We do usually ignore him when he steals something, and when he has finished destroying it he wanders off.  I just couldn't leave him with the batteries in his mouth though.

If it's something dangerous in his mouth, try ringing the doorbell, that may get him running to the door (unless he takes it with him!) so you can then perhaps get him outside, chuck him a few treats and go back to get whatever it was he had.

I agree training is the way to go, if you create a "habit" with many different items of "give" and "Bring" then you should find over time he will give things up willingly.
You may also find he is better at running to youu to bring things rather than if you go to him (this needs training though).

However, each time there is tension, it will add to the problem and he will get worse so you do right to ignore it when you can :).

Tohme has a weimaraner, she may be along in a minute as she has very good advice under her sleeve,  and being a W. owner may have some more ideas.

Lindsay
x

I'm afraid that things have got worse with Casper since starting this post.  I called him in last night and when I went to get his collar to guide him in (which I have done hundreds of times before with no problem) he leapt up and went for my face.  I have gouge marks down my face where his claws got me.  I had to take one of the other dogs to the vets this morning and the vet is of the opinion that Casper should be put to sleep. The vet says it is Caspers unpredictability that makes him more dangerous - if his aggression was predictable it would be easier to work on and possibly change.  I just don't know what to do for the best - I would be heartbroken if he was put to sleep, but more so if he did this to a child (or anyone really) and scarred them for life.  Casper was very very nervous and frightened of everything when we got him and he has improved so much, but this unpredictable behaviour is just not acceptable.  When he steals things it is almost as if he is trying to goad us into a 'fight' as he always brings us what he has taken, seemingly wanting for us to try to take it off us so he can fight.  One day we can hold his collar, the next, we get bitten for doing it.  Sorry if this is rambling on a bit, but I am very upset.  Can anyone offer any advice?

I'm surprised the vet didn't recommend you talk to a behaviourist to see if you could help Casper. How upsetting for you. I see you are in Yorkshire. I know someone very good who is not too far away. I have no connection other than I've taken classes from the person; no personal gain in other words. If you would like their details PM me.

i'm so sorry that you find yourself in this situation, if my dog bit me or someone else the bottom would fall out of my world! I  have no advice i'm afraid because I have no experience but you sound very sensible and i know you will find the right course of action given time and professional advice. best of luck x

Hi

That is a terrible turn of events and I feel really sorry that this has happened.  Try not to make any impulsive decisions before you've thought everything through properly.

Some questions (you might not even know the answers but it might help to think about them).  Is Casper truly unpredictable?  It doesn't sound like his guarding of objects is unpredictable - you've explained that it happens when he finds a novel object and brings it to you.  It doesn't seem to happen with his toys or other objects which you can tell him to "Leave" - is that right?  If so, there is order and there is a pattern to this behaviour and it is NOT unpredictable, whatever the vet says.  (Vets are not behaviourists.)

As for going for your face - can you describe better what happened - you say that he "went" for your face, but then you say that the marks on your face are from his claws.  Did he go for your face with his teeth?  How did his claws end up causing the damage?  The thing is - dogs don't fight with their claws.  If they want to do someone damage, they will use their teeth.  In addition - dogs are incredibly good at judging where their mouths are, how hard to bite, whether to bite or to snap for example.  IF a dog MEANS to bite, 95% of the time, he WILL bite.  If he MEANS to SNAP (a warning, air bite), he WILL.  Too often dogs snap at people, and people say "Oh, he tried to bite me" - this is NOT correct.  An air snap is NOT "trying to bite" someone.  It was intended as an air snap.  Sure - it's still aggression and it's not ideal, but not as much of a set back as a real bite.  Please try to put all emotion to one side (if possible) and look at this as factually as possible - what actually happened?

I agree with what others have suggested here - this goes way beyond what we can advise on, by an internet forum.  You need someone to come into your house and observe you and your family and then draw up a plan of treatment.  That's what a behaviourist would do.  Please be very careful where you get a behaviourist from, because there are lots of cowboys out there who will willingly take your money and whose methods use punishment which usually makes aggressive behaviour worse.  Make sure that your behaviourist is a member of the APBC: www.apbc.org.uk as they have a stringent list of membership criteria which should eliminate all the cowboys.  Good luck.

Thanks for the response, onetwothree.  When I said Casper was unpredictable, I mean that one day he will ignore the dishcloth, socks, remote, whatever, and the next will decide that it is the most wonderful thing in the world.  The day after that he will ignore it again, so there is no pattern as to what it is he wants to steal, it just seems to be the confrontation he likes. The last time he bit my husband badly (drawing blood) all my husband had done was to get out of his chair.  Casper was laid by his feet and turned and bit my husbands leg.  There is never any warning which is what worries me.

When I went to get Casper's collar last night he lunged at my face with his teeth but i stepped back in time and my face got raked by his claws as he headed back down to the ground. As soon as he has bitten, it is over with in that he bites with no warning, then goes back to sleep, or plods off outside as if nothing has ever happened.

If he were a child I would say that he is testing us - pushing us to the limit to see if we give up on him.  I know I shouldn't humanise his behaviour but he had a bit of a bad time before we got him and he is constantly seeking reassurance.  We live in a household with 5 dogs, Casper being the middle one (not in age, but when he joined the household).  The other 4 are all bitches and Casper is definately the bottom of the pack.

I would appreciate any interpretations of Caspers behaviour.

Louise

Hi I'm so sorry to hear your having problems with your weimy. You said he's a rescue dog, have you had any help from where ever you rescued him from? Is his aggresion the reason why he was put into rescue? Sorry for asking if these questions have already been asked, but we have a rescued weimy, and although he is very well behaved, we still keep in touch with rescue, and get loads of help and advice from them. Maybe they can offer some sort of support? Hope you can get this sorted.
Sue

So sorry to hear of your difficulties.  My only advice, before making an decision, would be to find a recommended trainer/behaviourist with a good reputation who can come and actually see what Casper is doing, picking up the subtle dog signs that you may be missing, rather than rely on solutions from people who haven't seen Casper's reactions.  Behaviour this serious really does need the right advice and I don't believe that anyone can give that without seeing your dog.
I really am sorry after you've taken on a rescue and hope that things can be worked out.

Quite right about the cowboys onetwothree, they do way more harm than good. The person I had in mind is a founder member of the APBC but it's always best to have options.

I agree, you really do need to commit to seeing a reputable behaviourist, I am surprised your vet did not recommend this.
If anything he should have suggested some health tests such as hypothyroid rather than pts.In the meantime, avoid any potential "triggers" for
want of a better word.

Lindsay
x

When you explain about your Weims behaviour you could be explaining my Arthur (yorkie).  He exhibits exactly the same behaviour, the only difference he will drop his prize (my sim card from my phone was his most recent one) for a treat.  We only discovered this after 3 of us were bitten causing inch cuts and lots of blood each time.  He will also bite if hes sat near you and you move your foot or hand in the slightest way.  Hes not a rescue we have had him since being a puppy but he didnt come from a good background, I believe he was puppy farmed.

Our vet too has said Arthur is VERY AGGRESSIVE this when he was 3 months old and he tried to administer ear drops to arthur who took exception.  I asked them to recommend a behaviourist after he bit his dog walker for a piece of bubble wrap, they gave me the name and number of someone who no qualifications.  Im now trying to find my own.  Arthur was castrated 5 months ago and last month has been a little bit better and more predictable whether this is to do with the castration I have no idea.

I really know what you are going through I have been in tears with arthurs behaviour its very stressful, you just want to know what they are thinking.  Fingers crossed we can find a good behaviourist and sort them out.  In the meantime if anyone new comes into the house we muzzle Arthur as I couldnt handle him biting someone else Im lucky in that the people he has bitten up to now have been very forgiving and absolute dog lovers.  (sorry for such a long post)

Bulchy, we didn't get Casper from a rescue centre or breed rescue, we 'rescued' him after he had been advertised on Ebay and I took exception and drove straight down to get him.  He was kept in a shed in a yard, had very little human contact and was badly socialised.  He really has come on in leaps and bounds except for this issue.

Leanne K, we are 'lucky' in that Casper only bites us, and has never shown any aggression towards anyone else.  He is fine with the vet and although he doesn't like people coming to the house he runs and hides from them.  I have been recommended a behaviorist by Lori and am going to give him a ring before we make any decisions.

Louise

I can't help wondering whether a breed specialist would be the best person for you to contact?  Weims are very sensitive dogs and need careful handling to bring the best out of them ;)  They don't forgive bad handling and they don't forget it either ;)  NOT FOR A MINUTE suggesting that you or your partner have handled him badly or roughly, but the people he came from ;) 

You could try the Weimaraner Forum someone on there may be able to help with training, advice, etc ;)

I am pretty sure Tohme is on the Weim forum, I am sure she will see this soon and perhaps give some advice :)

Lindsay
x

I wouldn't just go with one behaviourist which has been recommended to you by a stranger over an internet forum (no disrespect to you Lori - whoever it was and whatever their recommendation I'd say the same!).

You need to have a look at the APBC site, also call your vet and ask if he knows of a behaviourist registered with the APBC, Google APBC and your area in the UK, and then speak to all these behaviourists at least over the phone and try to gauge which ones you believe you could work with, and which ones to you sound like they have the most ideas for this situation.

You wouldn't take a referral for a particular human health professional online without getting 2nd opinions and seeing what other options are out there and the same goes for this.

Not meaning to be picky, but do you mean APDT, or another organisation?

The APBC is the Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors :) Similar to the APDT but they deal with behaviour (such as dogs harming themselves) as oppose to just training.

Thanks for that. :) I understand now! :)

Oh louisechris1, thats awful, poor little boy. I really hope you can help this lad. Good luck.
Sue

They look like a breed that need a lot of stimulation, look at this one workinghttp://www.chalcy.com/pages/movie.html

Hi Louise,  If you want to ring me I am happy to try and help.  I work with Weimaraner Club of GB Rescue Rehoming & Welfare and am in Yorkshire.  My number is 01977 709134 if you want to ring me tomorrow (Wednesday) I will be around all day.  I am obviously here this evening and although shopping on Thursday will be around most of the time.  if you ring and I am not in please do leave a message with your phone number and I will return you call.

Lynn

Hi there louisechris1, I am sorry to hear about your problems with your dog. One of the reasons that we recommend that pups/dogs are only purchased from reputable breeders who use stock that meet both the physical and temperamental points of the KC standard is to avoid issues such as these.  There are many people who breed from unsuitable stock and keep them in unsuitable conditions which can then result in dogs that are not good examples of the breed.

This causes much heartache and I know how you feel.  After reading your posts the key word is unpredictability and, as has already been mentioned, predictable behaviour is much easier and more likely to be shaped than unpredictable behaviour.

It is impossible to correctly identify what your dog is doing and maybe the triggers over the ether and I strongly suggest that you contact your vet who can put you in touch with a reputable behaviourist (the only way any member of the APBC will see a client).  This is in order to rule out any medical conditions which could be the/a factor in his outlook on life (otherwise behavioural modification may be less than ideal). 

There are two breed rescue organisations run for Weimaraners, one run by the IWRRS and the other by the WCGB, both can be contacted by going via the guided search, gundog, Weimaraner, clubs route on this board.  WCGB will not rehome any dog that has bitten. 

A good behaviourist may be able to identify the issues and plan a programme to resolve them, if not, you may have to face the fact that the dog may have to be PTS. 

Not all problems can be solved unfortunately.

However you may be lucky.

If you would like to contact me privately for any help I may be able to offer, please do not hesitate to contact me.  I have had one or two difficult Weims myself ;)

Good Luck

I would say def follow the last post by tohme. This is the best advice, I own weims too and know how sensitive they can be and that poor dog of yours has had anything but the best start in life. he is lucky to be with you. The dog needs to be seen by someone who knows what they are doing, who can work with you all as a family. The internet and forums can be a dangerous place where some( not all) people with a tiny bit of what they think is knowledge can pass on advice which if taken could so seriously go wrong. If, at the end of the day, the dog has to be pts, at least you will have taken him from his hell hole and given him a warm and loving home, and saved him from going from home to home, which so eaisly could have happened. How could anyone sell a live animal on Ebay for goodness sake!! I thought Ebay only sold inanimate objects. The people who put him there need a kick in the appropriate place, for that and the way they kept him, and as for Ebay...well.

I wish you all the luck in the world with him.