We seem to be going backwards with our new puppy.  Lucy is now 15 weeks old and we have had her for 4 weeks.  For the first couple of weeks she slept in her crate by the side of our bed (so did our older dog temporarily) and she was brilliant...slept through until about 6am each day, never had an accident and if she did start wimpering we just talked to her and she went back to sleep.  After a couple of weeks we moved her crate down to the kitchen area and our older dog went back to her bed in the open plan area off the kitchen.  At first this was OK but gradually Lucy started waking earlier and earlier in the morning and not settling again.  My husband got into the habit of going and grabbing an extra hours sleep on the sofa downstairs and cuddling up with Lucy where she would sleep happily in his arms.  Trouble is, she is now waking in the early hours each night and just will not settle again.  We recognised that we have probably caused this problem by going to her when she has woken previously (on the grounds that we thought she needed a pee) so last night when she woke at 4am we took her out for a pee, settled her back in her crate and then left her.  She barked the house down until 6am at which stage my husband got up and found she had worked herself into a frenzy - she had wet her bed (first time ever) and was shaking and clearly exhausted.  She fell asleep in his arms.  She is not fully housetrained yet and she has a tendency to chew wires so we need to lock her away at night.  We are getting desperate now through lack of sleep.  Please can someone tell us where we are going wrong?

Have thought about buying a baby intercom thing so we can talk to her when she wakes - would that make any sense?

i think your pup needs to start realising its ok to be on her own- she doesnt need you 24/7!
its easy in the beginning to think- 'oh i'll go to her and she'll sleep' but in the long term its much wiser to just leave her to it- and be sleep deprived for the few first weeks.- its horrible to hear her, but it shouldnt be forever ;)

i think you should curb this behaviour asap as she is growing up fast! i'd say when she first whines- if you think she needs to pee- then pop her out and praise if she does- but then just pop her back in crate- dont soft talk her/comfort her, if you want to say something- then just say "go to sleep" and leave her. (or use a phrase that you use anyway at bedtime)

when i looked after mums pup- a lab, the first 3 nights he barked/howled/screamed so much he fell asleep through exhaustion- by that time its was morning anyway! after the first 4 llooonnggg nights he soon realised theres no need to worry and that we were nearby. once our current dog had settled in our home, but then she started to test us by every other night really going for it- barking for 20 mins non-stop, we stopped this by getting up and quietly sneaking to top of stairs- then said- go to bed! this would somehow stop her and this all stopped after a week or so.

goodluck- let us know what happens xx

I'm sure you're right - we have given her too much attention and also she hates being parted from our older dog overnight.  Given that she is inevitably going to pee herself out of stress if we just ignore her, is that going to be a backward step for housetraining?

Since she's wetting the bed and clearly exhausted by stress, I'm not sure about the hardcore "just leave her to it" method here.  Dogs are creatures of habit - and that includes things like stressing massively and weeing in crates - once they start to do something, they will do more of it unless you take action to help stop that.

I do agree that sleeping with her on the sofa every morning was a mistake.  So is responding to her needing the toilet.  You should ALWAYS anticipate the toilet - put your alarm clock on and take her out at a certain time, rather than waiting for HER to wake YOU - otherwise you are at her beck and call. 

Can you fit the crate in your bedroom?  The first thing to do is to make sure she can sleep all through the night.  I would put the crate back in your bedroom without the older dog there, and see if she can go all through the night without a toilet break.  If she wakes up and makes noise DO NOT SPEAK TO HER.  Gradually move the crate out of your bedroom each night a bit further, before you put it downstairs again.

As you probably already know, I've got a pup the same age as Feebee, and we're still getting up twice a night to take her out. Increasingly she's reluctant to come out of her cage on one (or more!) of the occasions we come to take her out. Should we see this as a signal to move to 1 toilet trip per night. The first trip is now at 3am so should keep this one and bin the 5.30am one?

P.S - Sorry for hijacking the post Feebee

No problem.  It sounds as if we have probably been trying to get her to go through the night too soon if you are still going out twice a night.  Does your puppy settle again after the 5.30am pee?

Normally she does, yes. But last night we were trying to move all times on by 1/2 hour in an attempt to get her to go on one trip a night. (i.e The night before we went at 2.30am and then 5.30 am and last night we went at 3am and then I got up at 6am). She was not bothered at the 6am trip so I went back to bed - for about 20 minutes before she was ready to get up!! I think I probably woke her up earlier than she would normally wake, so I think we're just going to do the 3.00am trip and get up as normal - well 6.45 'normal' anyway :rolleyes:.

We currently feeling the lack of sleep thing too. I was used to 8 hours sleep and knew that that was the amount of sleep I needed to function properly. Since we've got Roxy (nearly a month now) neither of us have gotten more than 6.5 hours sleep a night (sometimes less) and even that has been interrupted. Me and the Boyf are getting very ratty with one another but we understand that this isn't forever, and eventually our sleepless nights and freezing our butt cheeks off in garden at odd times of the night is paying dividends in terms of housetraining.

Well I think we'll join you in the 3am outing and see if that helps....I'll think of you out in the cold while we stand around out there!

The lack of sleep is a killer isn't it?  I was an 8 hour a night person as well - recently it hasn't even been six, and last night it was only 5.  I feel dead on my feet today!  Irritating thing is that she wakes and whines so we think she needs to go out but when we open the crate door we almost have to pull her out as she is so comfy in there!

I think she is just trying to sabotage our marriage!

I find the nighttime crying/barking conundrum very confusing too. The one night (right at the beginning of getting her and before we knew her bowel movements - which coincidentally I never knew I'd have such detailed knowledge of!!) we said firmly ' Nope we will not respond to her barking'. We were feeling quite righteous about it until we discovered she'd pooped in her cage and she was actually letting us know. We felt very bad about that. :(

Trust me - when your new puppy has really bad diarrhea for the first 2 weeks you become intimately involved with every bowel movement!  Sounds like you have been much better about being firm than we have (hope the puppy has forgiven you for that episode!) - we have some catching up to do!

Thanks onetwothree.  Yes we can put the crate back in our bedroom. Are you suggesting that we first try putting her back in our room and not waking her to go out unless she wakes on her own?  If she does wakes and then barks for the rest of the night, do we just have to lie next to her and ignore her?  If she reverts to the behaviour when we first got her, she will sleep through to about 5.30, then need a pee, then bark until we let her out of her crate.  Should we just leave her there for another hour or so barking next to us?

Hi - No, I think you should...

Put the crate in your room, next to your bed.

Set your alarm clock for earlier than she usually wakes you by barking.

Wake her up and take her out at that time.

Put her back in her crate and all go to sleep.  (Ideally!).  If she barks and whines and complains AFTER having been taken out for toilet, you can safely ignore her, because she's done her toilet and is empty and because she is right next to you and so should not be stressing about being isolated either.  That kind of noise would then just be a pure paddy about wanting to be out of the crate and playing instead of doing sleep time.  So it would be fine to ignore that.  Yes, you do have to lie next to her and ignore her.  It will be hard, it might be horrible, but it will only be for a very few nights and it's better for the long term to suffer through a few sleepless nights.

When after a few days, she's quiet after being put back in her crate, you can then begin to do what Fluff is doing - make her toilet trip 30 mins later each night.  You can also slowly move the crate further away from you towards wherever you finally want it.

Make sure that during the day you are getting her used to being left crated and on her own for short periods of time.

Thank you .....we'll give it a go!  I must admit that she hasn't been left crated on her own during the day yet really - she was horribly ill for the first 2 weeks so we couldn't leave her then, and for the last couple of weeks we haven't done as much as we should on that front.  Does it matter, when we're trying to leave her on her own during the day, whether she is crated or whether we leave the crate door open and allow her to roam around the kitchen?  I don't really like to lock her in the crate unless she is sleeping as she doesn't like it when she's awake.

good advice 123! i didnt realise she peed in her bed :(

try the advice given- what i always say is to keep a sense of humour about it, hard it is but we found that if we kept a sense of humour then we felt more relaxed- good luck xx

It's vitally important that you begin to leave your puppy alone every single day, gradually extending the time.  This is an important part of socialisation and at 15 wks your pup is coming to the end of the window of socialisation so there's no time to waste.  If you don't get her accustomed to being left alone before the socialisation window closes, you run the risk of her continuing to be stressed for always when left alone.

I would leave her crated when you go out and leave her.  The crate should mean "bye bye we're going out", it's a safe den for a pup, she can't chew any wires or mess or wee (most pups won't want to mess or wee in their bed). 

She needs to learn to like it when she's awake - you have to change that.  Listen, when you get a puppy, it is a malleable, flexible bundle and you can shape him or her to fit in with almost anything (within reason).  You can't just say "She doesn't like it" - you need to change that so she DOES like it.  Just like you can't just say "Oh, she likes to jump up at people" - you'd need to change that.

Read and re-read these links on crate training and then get yer skates on, because you've only got a few weeks to go....

http://www.ddfl.org/behavior/crate-train.pdf

http://www.clickersolutions.com/articles/2002/sa.htm   (This is intended for adult dogs with separation anxiety - ignore the part about drugs etc - the behavioural suggestions are still very relevant.  Be aware that it's much easier for you to solve this now than when she's an adult dog with a problem.)

Thank you onetwothree.  We followed your advice last night - took her crate back up to our bedroom and set the alarm clock for 2.45am and 5.45am which meant that we were in control of when she woke and went outside for a pee.  And it worked a treat - thank you!  She settled back down virtually immediately each time.  She woke again at about 6.15 at which point we gave her something to chew which kept her occupied until we got up about half an hour later....hope that's OK!

We went to our first puppy training class last night and they have also reinforced the message about making sure she works by our rules....I do accept that we have been too soft on her as a result of her being so ill when we first got her.  We will now start a regular campaign of getting her to stay on her own for increasing periods during the day......we have learned our lesson!

Let's hope tonight is as successful as last night and it wasn't a one off!

That's great - glad it worked - I would now cut out one of those toilet trips (probably the 2nd one) and make the first one be just before she usually wakes.

I wouldn't give her a chew though - always think what your actions mean to the dog - are they rewarding something or are they making it less likely to happen?

If she wakes up and whines and you give her something to chew, you are rewarding that whining and that waking up.  Even if she didn't whine and just woke up, by giving her something active to do during "sleep time" you are encouraging her to want to be active at that time and that hour. 

The puppy training class probably helped - she was probably tired after that!

I thought you might say that about the chew - I had a slight feeling of guilt as I gave it to her but I was so desperate for that extra half an hour!  You're right about the training class - she was exhausted.  Not the case tonight, so we'll see.  I was wondering whether the two trips were necessary - I think we'll try about 4am and then leave it until she wakes up.  Thanks again - it's so useful to hear from people who have been through all this!

I went through the no sleep i did it for four weeks i egnored my pup to the point i was in tears with hurt but also tiredness i had to give in and now he sleeps on my bed which dosnt bother me im hoping when hes fully toilet trained he will go on his own bed but will come to that when it happens.Cant you try puttin older dog in same room as the pup she will have found it hard to be put away from you but also the other dog.

Onetwothree - you are a genius, thank you!  We had a really good night last night.  Both dogs are now back in our bedroom (I rather like having them there anyway).  The puppy went in the crate at 11pm.  We woke her at 4am for a pee and she settled again in a few minutes and then kept quiet until about 6.45 which is a miracle!  We didn't even resort to giving her a chew.  Fingers crossed things continue to improve.  Thanks again.

Great, that's excellent.  Not quite sure it makes me a genius though! 

A few more days like that and you'll know that you've got her bladder control through the night sorted and you'll have consolidated that stage of things.  Then you can begin to move the crate out of your room - don't give up if you genuinely don't want her in the bedroom later - if you'd prefer not to have her in there, better to be strong now.  Having her sleep apart from you will also be good for her separation anxiety tendencies.  Each time you move the crate further away, wait until she is fine at night before moving it again.  Ie - consolidate everything before you move on further.

Our older dog always used to sleep on the landing just outside our room and in the longer term I guess that's where we'd like both dogs to sleep - so it's not such a long journey from where she is now.  I want to be absolutely sure she is OK through the night first though.  At what kind of speed do we put back the time we wake her up in the night for a wee?  I'm not sure how quickly bladder control develops.  If we extend the time by 10 minutes a night would that work?

I would try 15-30 mins a night, depending on the dog.