Phoebe has had her pups! They were due Weds., but arrived tonight. She has 4 black bitches, but sadly 2 of them have cleft palates. She has also had 1 yellow dog. We'll take them all to the vets in the morning to be checked over. They all seem to be feeding well at present, but we know the 2 little black girls can't survive. We are devastated.
Phoebe is still panting a lot, so Mike will take her for a little walk to see if that gets anything going.The other 2 black girls have tiny white blazes - I know it's permissable, but I've never actually seen it before.
Anyhow, must get back to lovely mum, who is doing brilliantly. We all just want to give the 2 special girls a comforting night with their mum, and try not to think about tomorrow.We just feel choked because they are so beautiful.

Clare

well done claire hope all the rest goes well . It is a great experience to see new puppies you would never get tired of it. best of luck Mari

Congratulations :). Sorry about your two little girls though.

Congradulations! Sorry about the two girls, breeding can be such an emotional rollercoaster. Hang on tight!

Carissa

Hi clare, so sorry to hear about your pups, but dont give up hope until you have seen your vet. One of the posters onthis board had two pups born with cleft palettes. Sadly one had to be pts, but the other one is now a normal healthy pup of about 8 months I believe, and has no trouble at all eating and drinking. Fingers crossed for you.xx

Clare

My older boys litter sister was born with a cleft palate and she is now coming up for two years old and very healthy:D She had to have threelots of surgery to close the hole in the roog of her mouth and she sometimes gets a bit snuffly, a tiny tiny hole remains, but by and large you wouldn't know. She is smaller than she should be as she was hand reared but she survived. Depending how bad it is = they can survive it. Fingers crossed for you.

Pam n the boys

I will probably get flamed for this, but I think pups born with life affecting deformities should be put to sleep. there are plenty of healthy dogs that are without homes.

Unless the breder plans to keep the puppy themselves, then it is grossly unfair to saddle the new owner with health issues. as has been said the pup needed operations, and is smaller than int should be, that is not normal and healthy!

There is also the risk that a pup with a congenital condition might go on to be bred from, even if accidentally, unless very early neutering is performed!

The good thing about congenital conditions that are apparent right away, is that this decision can be made before geting too attached, and before a new owner is in love with a pup.

Im afraid I agree with Brainless (hate that name) I am lucky in that in twenty years I have only had one cleft palate in a litter it was so bad the only option was to PTS at the time I was devastated but after realised it was the best option.I know by experience its hard to find homes for healthy normal labs these days let alone a dog with a deformity.
I would also be looking at the lines you have bred maybe a dog in the background may be known to produce mismarks or splashing, and steer clear of that next time.
The white marks should go smaller with growth but its still hard explaining to novice lab people/prospective owners why they have them although it permissable.
I once had a litter and there were three blacks in it with white on two on the chest and one the foot
.
There was one very famous lab who had white on his foot, and my middle black bitch has white on her sole of the foot (hope she doesnt pass it on though )
I hope all goes well with the Mum and Babies and will be thinking of you Re: your decision on the two cleft palates, either way it will be a tough decision.But you will need to just put it down to experience.

Best Wishes glenys

I agree too, in addition to what has been said I don't believe these operations are a kindness to the poor thing. Also the rearing itself can be inadvertantly cruel, a friend of mine tried to rear a boxer pup with a cleft palate, it died from pneumonia after inhaling food, I felt my friend suffered far more by this course of action too. I think it has to be kinder to let the little mites go before they experience any suffering. I hope this thread is not upsetting you Clare <<Hugs>>

I don't necessarily disagree with what you have said - but it presumes that - for example in the case I know of - that the bitch would be bred from and that ther breeder kept this knowledge from the new owner. All couldn't be further from the truth. The breeder did not let her go until all the surgery was completed and she knew she was going to be OK. The breeder paid for all the surgery and my friend had her spayed as soon as possible. The girl is very healthy and has has been given the gift of life and is with a very very good home who love her to pieces.

Not all dogs have to be perfect specimins to warrant living. Serious deformities that will impact seriously on the quality of life do need to be handled with consideration - but if a dog has every chance of a normal life and the breeder is up front about it all - then why not? It's much better than all this hidden stuff where many pups are PTS and their problems not put into the open. Cleft palate is not uncommon - but not many will admit to having them.

I would never condone hiding the truth or breeding from a dog/bitch with obvious problems - but that doesn't have to happen. Many of these puppies can grow into happy little souls. This little girl has a far better life than many dogs who are either mistreated/overfed etc etc. To say outright that all with deformities - apparently no matter how minor should be PTS is in my mind unethical.

The fact that there are plenty of healthy dogs out there without homes just brings the argument full circle then in why is anyone breeding at all!!

jmho

Pam n the boys

I stick by what I have said Pam I think it is a kindness to the puppy. It certainly would not be for the purposes of keeping the deformity quiet I would be perfectly happy for instance if vets reported all such events to the KC so accurate data was available to all on the occurance of whatever in whatever breed. Although in recognition that not everone feels the same I suppose that would not work as some would not use a vet to humanely put the pup to sleep.

Hi Pammy sorry I wasnt meaning anything against your friend fair play to her for what she did and thats her decision,just wanted to say what my stance would be either way its heartbreaking and Claire has my support and good wishes whatever happens it takes a lot to share your problems on here as we all have differing opinions and advice based on I hope our experiences but generally we all offer our very best wishes and would never wish to offend.
Regards Glenys.

((((hugs for claire)))))

I know Glenys - it is an awful situation for any new puppy breeder to be in. Part of the harsh reality of breeding that many just don't seem to realise exists.

I do wish that in-bred phsyical faults of this nature were reported and held on record. Hiding them does not "better the breed" which is what we all rally want to do.

Good luck to Claire - it is not an easy situation to deal with at all. What I would say is that it's one of those decisions that you can justify either way - but it doesn't make it any the easier.

very best wishes to all

Pam n the boys

Well, we've been to the vet, and he felt that the kindest thing was pts. I asked him how, and he said an injection. We just couldn't bear the thought of a needle for those little babies, so I asked him to use gas like they do for hamsters etc. I hope that was the right thing to ask for.... I couldn't really think properly. Just for once though, if any of you think I should have opted for an injection, I'd appreciate not knowing.

So, the business of puppy rearing starts in earnest. Phoebe is a lovely mum, apart from the vets, eating and spending a penny she hasn't really left them at all. Oh, we have now got 3 black bitches and 1 yellow dog. The third bitch arrived at 3.30 am. Mike and I had dozed off on the sofa and Phoebe came and woke me. I followed her into the kitchen just in time to catch a jet propelled puppy!

I just want to say how much I have appreciated everyone's kind thoughts and comments. It's really good to know that there are folk out there who are wishing us all well, no matter what the outcome. Thankyou.

I'll let you all know how things are going.
Regards
Clare

I'm really sorry to hear about your bad luck :( but I think the gas sounds like a lovely, peaceful way to go.

Good luck with the remaining 4, I'll bet they'll keep you busy :)

Fiona
x x x

That is exactly how many were in my first litter. It is enough to be a real litter, but few enough not to be really hard work at the 4 to 8 week stage. I found that number just so easy to keep clen and fresh, and they had more freedom than the next litters with 7 to 9 pups, as you could watch four! Really enjoy them it is a lovely time!

Hi, Brainless,
I'm sure you're right about 4 pups.They look like a happy little family, all snuggled up to their mum. Phoebe has settled well with them. Perhaps if there had been fewer pups, but with the same problem she might have been fretting and searching.
I'm sorry to hear that you lost a pup at 5 days.That must have been so upsetting as you must have been really bonded with it by then.
Already we can see characters developing....and the most vocal of all is the yellow boy....typical male!

regards
Clare

Hi clare, Im so sorry to hear your news, but as it had to be done, I too think the gas sounds a peaceful way to go.((((((hugs to you all)))))))

Just finished reading the thread. What a lovely peaceful way for the puppies to go.
Good luck with the others

Claire, having lost a puppy in my last litter at 5 days, as due to the anasthetic it wasn't feeding efficiently I do actually feel for you. I have always felt very sad when loosing any puppy!

Hugs from me and mine!

I can fully understand with cleft palate puppies being PTs.
It was my litter that had 2 born with them and I didn't find them until they were 10days old!!!!One was smaller than the others but the other one was HUGE!!!!!
I did consult my vet who kept an eye on them and we both decided the bitch had to be PTS at 3weeks as It was clear the cleft was too big.
But the dogs cleft closed as he grew and the vet said there was no need to be PTS.
He didn't need any opperations and probably won't as the hole is very small.
He is now a BIG!!!! healthy 9 month old puppy living with a family who were told the whole truth about him from the day I found the cleft palate.
So mirricles do happen BUT If I had found the cleft palate at birth I would probably had them PTS straight away........

HI claie,
just wanted to say im sorry about the puppies that were pts,and im really pleased that mum and others are doing well,my puppies are 17 days old and it was my first litter and the birth did'nt go to well bonnie ended up with a section she had 3 pups one was born dead but the other 2 are great,eyes open and standing,and very vocal, i'm shattered as they are still in my bedroom and they SNORE but i'm having so much fun,I try not to think to much about the one we lost and enjoy the ones we have,anyway now the fun will start for you.

LOWRI

Hi Claire

Wanted to say sorry about the puppies :(

And hope the others have a strong start in life....

Natasha