Does anyone have any experience or views on the use of training discs. These are 5 brass discs not much larger than coins on a small loop of canvas. The theory is that having "trained the dog onto the discs" by throwing them on the ground near the dog to stop them doing something, they can then be used to discourage unwanted behavior. My reservations are based on my own dog's reaction to them when used. They clearly unsettle her, and whilst they do immediately stop her doing whatever it is she was doing they seem to be based on a fear reaction, which I can't feel wholly comfortable about (or am I just being a wimp?). Our dog does not seem to associate them with me because on the few occasions when I have used them she has immediately come to me for comfort. I now only resort to them as a final "nuclear deterrent" to discourage behaviour I can't seem to stop by other means, but at the back of my mind is still some unease about whether to use them at all. Any thoughts anyone?

Yes.  They are punishment.  Don't use them.  Better to distract in other ways.  You can end up with a nervous dog which is a bag of nerves if you use these things - imagine going about your daily business and at random times there's an incredibly loud noise near you - it won't be long before you're constantly on edge, worrying about the next time this thing will go off. 

I used them when my dog kept barking and jumping towards a Dobe who didn't need much to get him going anyway.  This was during training school so don't suppose onetwothree will be too impressed lol  Anyway they worked well in that situation, the discs were thrown down between the dogs and they parted immediately.  Only did this about 5 times and then the dogs seemed to stop reacting to one another.  Also used them on narrow path in woods when another dog got too close to mine and the owner didn't do anything to recall her dog and mine was on a lead going bonkers.:rolleyes:

I think these discs can have their place in modifying undesired behaviours but only when used correctly and for extreme behavioural issues that have failed to be managed by persistent and patient reward based training - i.e. usually under instructions from a behaviourist :)

I think them being used as a possible cure all for *annoying* rather than *unacceptable* behaviours could well lead to the average dog being upset / frightened and the owner feeling much as you describe yourself.  Our dogs as a general rule only want to please us and most behaviour problems can be overcome with reward or NILIF regimes rather than resorting to methods or tools which cause distress.

I have seen them demonstrated very effectively in dog to dog aggression situations where other methods had tried and failed so as I said IMO they do have a place (but just an ickle one :D )

regards, Teri

A friend used them with a problem of him not coming to her when she was out on walks after being let on the lead.  It worked brilliantly.  We'd spent ages trying other methods and they didn't work but this did.

I've never used them myself.

The idea of the discs is not to scare any dog, but frequently they are not used corrrectly and they do scare the dog, in some cases creating a nervous dog.

John Fisher meant the dog to be conditioned to them, they are supposed really to act as a kind of "no reward" marker Ie,when the dog hears them he knows he will not get what he wants  and immediately calmly accepts that .

Used that way,  on a non sound sensitive dog,  and with a sensible owner they would not do much damage, but all too often they are not used as intended :)

Lindsay
x

I resorted to them when one of my youngsters would not stop chewing a piece of skirting board.  They worked brilliantly for that. 

I would only use them as a last resort to distract from persistant unwanted behaviour.

Thanks everyone, your comments are very helpful. I think based on these I will keep them in reserve and persevere with reward based methods. A good suggestion which had not occurred to me would be to use them to deal with aggression from other dogs. Twice fairly recently my sweet natured little mut has been attacked by bigger dogs on our walks in the woods. My first reaction was to try to aim a kick at the attacking dog, but a moments thought convinced me that it would be more justified to aim the kick at the aggressive dog's owner for allowing such behaviour to develop (or at the very least ensuring their dog is restrained if they know it has aggressive tendencies). Perhaps a better solution all round would be to use the discs to discourage the dog from attacking.

Be careful using them in those circumstances, you could frighten your own dog more then the aggressive one.

The idea is they should be used without the dog knowing they have come from you.

I briefly tried them with my terrier, who used to bark like mad when we passed the gate of one particular dog, despite my attempts to train her otherwise.  The house is very near to us, so we couldn't really get out without passing them. 

I went to a trainer and got her conditioned to the discs.   However, I don't think she was on board with "when the dog hears them he knows he will not get what he wants and immediately calmly accepts that" bit.  Calm acceptance not so much in the terrier nature.  The discs didn't stop her.

In fact what she wanted was not to have to pass that dog's gate, so they couldn't possibly have worked in that context and I now know that I was wrong to use them.  The neighbour's dog died years ago and my dog still checks that gate.

I can't think of a context where I'd choose to use discs now.

Sorry Phoebe and Lucy, your post was not there when I started this!

Does anyone own a dog that is too stupid to look round, see how many people in the vicinity and put two and two together?

I used them successfully on rocky when he developed a seriously bad habit of hurtling towards other dogs, adn then SWANS at the park, with every intention of beign aggressive.

Being fun didnt work, rewarding him for beign with me didnt work, in short, nothing worked because as a young impulsive dog, his intentions were just FAR too exciting.

Possibly now, i would be able to prevent that behaviour with other methods, possibly not, but at the time the risk of him being drowned by a swan or injuring another dog was enormous and the risk of him being greatly upset by the discs not 'that' high as he is not a particularly sensitive or noise reactive dog.

These days though, my skills at reading my dogs body language are much greater, and i can pre-empt what a dog of mine is thinking abotu doing before it happens - thus we have progressed and i can walk rocky off lead near other dogs without a problem (unless THEY start something), just by using his favourite toy and keepinghim focused on me.

Em

Thanks Theemx. Like you, I have really only used them in the past in situations where Phoebe might otherwise come to harm. This has been out on walks when she sees horses in a field. Although her recall is almost 100% in other situations, she seems to think these "big dogs" are longing to play with her and despite my calling her would give me one quick glance then head off to the horses. She runs round and round them getting closer and closer trying to get them to play, and although they have largely ignored her up to now my fear was that one of them might lash out with a foot..then end of Phoebe. I used the discs on a few occasions in this situation and it seems to have worked because now her recall is working without the discs in this situation. Hopefully I can now consign them to the drawer.

The discs were first shown to me by my trainer and she did emphasise that they must be used with great care and with attention to the effects it has on each specific dog. There is another dog in our class that is very headstrong yet the discs seem to have a "thermo nuclear" deterrent on him. The owner tells me that she only has to move the discs slightly on the sideboard and her dog will run to hide behind the sofa. Other dogs, however, seem quite nonchalant about them. The conclusion seems to be use with great care only in situations to avoid other harm to the dog.

I used these training discs many years ago when John Fisher was still alive.  They worked for me & my dog at that time although I acknowledge that every dog is different.  I have owned dogs who I would definitely not use this method of training on.

So much depends on the dog, the circumstances, the relationship between owner and dog, level of respect etc that it is difficult to generalise and say they are the right method or not!

A good point to remember is, nobody knows your dog as well as you do although an experienced behaviourist/trainer will probably help you identify issues you may not have picked up on as you are so "involved".

The most recent modification of the training discs appears to be the plastic bottle with small stones in - and yes, I have used this method!   It worked for THIS dog at THIS time. :rolleyes: