OK ..this may be a little long winded, so I apologise in advance :-)
I was looking at the rescue dog forum yesterday (where I got Tansy), and I saw her sister is back in rescue. I have heard from her owner who says she is aggressive. She growls and bites when someone tries to move her off the sofa or bed. She also said that she had a problem with anyone holding her collar, even to put her lead on.
Tansy is not aggressive at all really, but she also has a problem with anyone pulling on her collar or holding her in the 'down' position (with or without collar holding), so trying to teach her down stay is difficult. She will snarl and 'bite' (luckily she has good bite inhibition) She will down for a treat, and stay for a treat at home LOL, so I am not too worried about it, apart from her litter sister having a similar problem. I don't intend for her to go to shows or anything, so if she doesn't ever do down and stay it is not really a big deal.
The lady at the training class said that it was a 'dominance' issue, but in all honesty, she does not display dominance in any other way. She is very obedient in the house, and will do down and stay etc, and if you want her to move she doesnt bother about it at all. You can even move Tansy in her bed!! She really doesn't care, she is very sweet natured.
Sorry...problem 2
Walking....We live on a main road so Tansy is well used to noise. When we go for a walk however it is like having a tasmanian devil with you. She cannot see a person, another dog, a bird or even a leaf without excitedly pulling toward it. She lunges at the odd car too , so I have to keep her securely on the lead. If she is out with two people she jumps around like a loony, jumping and nipping at the other person, even if that is me !! She knows 'heel'.....she just doesn't want to do it.
Suggestions welcome....thank you

I seem to remember hearing that they need to be very relaxed and trusting of you to go into the down, as it is such a submissive posture, so possibly she is feeling worried and trapped when you try to keep her down, rather than dominant. Have you tried letting her lick and nuzzle at the treat you used to lure her into the down, but not actually giving it to her until she has stayed down for a few seconds? I taught mine like that (not rescue, so much easier of course), tempting them to stay down by keeping the treat on the floor, and perhaps just stroking her while down to try and soothe her. Might be talking rubbish of course, I'm sure the experts will correct me shortly! :-)

With the walking, I guess it's just a case of one step at heel at a time, even if it takes ages to get anywhere. Must admit my awful lot don't walk to heel unless on rubber mats in the training hall!

Hi

Firstly you shouldn't be teaching a dog a down stay by physically holding her there, that's not going to teach her anything and is obviously counter productive with this particular dog because it is allowing her to practise aggression.  Build up the down stay gradually by rewarding her frequently during it with food.

Second, you're right that it's not a dominance issue.  Your trainer is wrong and this combined with the idea of holding a dog in a down stay makes me think you should consider changing trainers.  Have a read of this link about dominance: http://www.clickersolutions.com/articles/2004/Debunking.pdf

Third: "She knows 'heel'.....she just doesn't want to do it" - sorry, but she doesn't "know" heel.  As her trainer, it's your job to motivate her enough to want to do what you say.  Using treats or the stop/start method.  If she isn't motivated enough to comply, then she doesn't "know" the behaviour.

Fourthly, you can work at gradually accustoming her to having her collar touched by associating it with being given treats.  Reach towards the collar, give a treat.  Touch the collar gently, give a treat.  Gently grasp the collar without pulling, give a treat.  And so on, using very tasty treats.

It's a shame her sister was put back into rescue because that type of resource guarding of sofas it is quite common and quite easily solved.

Thank you for your replies.
Lucy...I tried letting her nibble at a treat in the down position in the park today, and she managed to stay there while the treat lasted :-). Thank you I will keep trying that one.
Onetwothree....You are so good to give so much of your time. I did try changing classes, and was initially happy with the new one (Meadowdogs if you remember the post) After the first week when Tansy was allowed a little romp with the other pups, it changed. It is so strict, not that being strict is a bad thing in itself. It is difficult to explain, but this is where Tansy decided she hated 'down', as their method is to slide the hand down the lead and pull them down near the collar if they won't go down. Tansy hated it, and so did I, and we both ended up stressed I'm afraid. We are also not supposed to treat when they do it.
The other class, we continued going to because she has friends there. This trainer suggested that holding her down by the collar was fine. I do not agree. She wants Tansy to start with the older group next week because she is nearly 7 months now.
I have to admit that I really just want to continue her training on my own now, but she would get no socialisation if I were to do that. Stuck between a rock and a hard place.
Last time you gave me links to other classes, but even Meadowdogs is a 45 min drive. Any others are further.
Reading your reply, I guess maybe she doesn't know 'heel' then. I thought she did because she will walk nicely when it suits her. I have tried stop/start over and over and over :-( , and I have tried treating, but that results in a frenzy. I shall just have to perservere with that!!
Thanks for the tips about touching her collar, but she is fine with that, it's just if you want her to 'down'. I am off to read your dominance link now.
Thank you
Wendy

I just had to come back and show this quote from the article you directed me to. I think it speaks volumes, and I thank you for giving me the link.
For example, you roll or flip your puppy on her back, and don't let her up until she stops resisting. The claim is beguilingly simple: by forcing a dog to assume a submissive posture and then rewarding her for tolerating it, you teach her to submit to your leadership.
But notice the claim's unspoken assumption that leadership is gained through force. In canine society, leadership is not won through brute physical domination. And a wide range of dogs with normal, sociable temperaments naturally will resist being forced on their backs, even to the point of defensive aggression.

Thank you onetwothree.....obviously a similar thing to being pulled down and held down by the collar!!
I forgot to say, we never went back to Meadowdogs after a trainer showed me how to do it. Tansy yelped like mad, and struggled to escape. I refuse to treat my pup like that. Another ex police dog trainer!!

Hi wendy/TansysMum

Sorry to hear that Meadowdogs didn't work out.  Welcome to a situation I've often found myself in - less than ideal classes but you want to keep going somewhere for socialisation reasons.

In that kind of situation, the best thing you can do is to find a class where the trainer may not have methods which you agree with 100%, but you are allowed to do things your way if you want.  Then read books and research ways of doing it which you agree with, and use the classes to practise your method with the distractions of other dogs around and with the other dogs for socialisation reasons as well.

It sounds to me like you need a good training book which will talk you through the various ways of doing this, hands-off.  I'd recommend The Culture Clash by Jean Donaldson, as it has a good training section in the back.  Practise all those methods at home every day and then use the class as an opportunity to try it out with distractions.  When the instructor sees that you are getting results your way, they won't really be able to tell you not to do it that way.

As for the stop-start thing - be warned that it can literally take years of this method.  I'm still doing it with a 17 month old!  Just be consistent and keep doing it. 

Just had to reply to that - Remy did his bronze with Meadow Dogs, and I'm relieved to read I'm not only one that has an issue with their use of force, albeit mild.  When we did his bronze, the trainer wanted us to tell our dogs to sit - and if they didn't within 3 seconds, push them into a sit.  Not my idea of positive training.

That, and the trainer was almost religious in his preaching of being dominant over the dog - on the first class I told him afterwards that I didn't agree with pack theory, and he asked me why; typically unprepared, the best I could manage was "I haven't seen any actual evidence that it's true."  Not actually that bad, in retrospect... anyway, he sais there was plenty, but I don't remember him actually giving any examples!

No intention of post-hijacking here, just wanted to share that with someone who's had a similar experience.

We are taught that once we are fairly sure our dog knows the command, then if they don't do it (for example sit) on the first command, we should then use a combination of a repeat command, the treat lure, and putting just a hand or perhaps a tiny bit of pressure on their bum to encourage them to put it on the floor. I think that sort of minimal 'force' combined with the lure and command is ok?

Glad to hear the down of your dog is starting to lengthen - I have a similar problem with my Yankee who seems to think 'Down' means 'throw yourself full length on the floor then bounce up again excitedly'!! :-)