Does anybody have the same view on this sudject as myself.

I have noticed over a number of years showing that there are a few dogs which do quite well in the showing scene but miss out on the top honours then all of a suddenly a "named handler" starts to show the dog and as if by magic the dog starts to take the top honors.
Surely if the dog wasn't good enough before then is certain isn't now.

For people like myself who loves to show my dog I find this quite disheartening, I pay the entry and petrol money as everyone else to find that a "name" is placed rather than the dog.

I believe this happens in most breeds and not just my own.

No wonder entries are dropping off at Shows.

It is of course possible that the new handler gets more from the dog, stands it properly, moves it at the correct speed and presents it in hard contition & well groomed. Ja:)kie

My thoughts exactly Jackie :-)

Jane

Don't want to be awkward, but aren't dog shows supposed to be a way to select the best breeding stock for the future rather than just a beauty competition? Since a dog can't pass on excellent handling with its genes, I'd like to think that judges make some attempt to judge the dog and not the handling/handler/preparation etc.

PS - that wasn't aimed at you in particular Jackie :-). I'm just a bit surprised to see most people speaking in favour of pro-handlers as I thought they were a mostly American phenomenon.

Not sure about everyone else, but I wasn't meaning "pro" handlers in the American 'paid for' sense, but "pro" as in professional in abilities etc - I suppose I should have said "top handlers". And from my own experience I know that a "top handler" can often spot a good dog that has consistenly been down the line due to poor presentation and handling and take it on to become a big winner. Likewise a good dog can go from being handled by a "top person" and start appearing down the line - not because of the lack of a face at one end of the lead, but because of lessened performance at the other enddue to inferior skill of the new handler/owner (and less rapport with the dog - see my previous post) Some people can just bring out the best in a dog.

In the right hands I have seen a dog grow an extra 2 inches of neck, acheive a perfect topline and move round the ring effortlessly with reach and drive. Should the judge try to visualise the worst case scenario for each dog, imagining it with a mediocre handler to arrive at a sort of lowest common denominator decision? Lest face it, some dogs are much better than others, and some handlers are much better than others, whether they handle multi-breeds or just one.

It's about conformation & condition and with the best will in the world if you are trying to judge a dog that stands like a sack of potatos and moves like a kangroo it is almost impossible to assess how good it is. Iv'e exaderated but I guess you get the idea. In a class where there are a number of dogs that you assess as of good quality the expert handler will make a difference in the placings because he or she is showing you the dog at it's best and moving it so you can see just how well it goes. Were as a novice will allow the dog to stick out an elbow, hold the head so the neck appears too short and moves as if they are going to collect the kids from school in a bit of a hurry, think I have just discribed myself. You try to make allowance and this does not stop a good dog winning but if the competition is good it will do him no favours. Ja:)kie

Jackie, agreed it isn't easy to judge a sack of spuds sticking its elbows out, and I have no problem if a pro-handler just has the edge over a novice handler where the dogs are otherwise equal. But I don't like the idea that a pro-handler can make a significant difference. Maybe it comes from having a breed where more grooming than a brush through and a tidy of the ears is considered a no-no, and where until recently a bit of mud was thought to add a touch of required je ne sais quoi by some :-).

Beleive it or not ours are shown completely natural ion this country. when you look at photos of US dogs, takes some getting used to the look, as they trim underlines and whiskers and bums and all sorts!! :D

We are quite an amateurish lot in our breed, hence a total novice winning the CC and BOB at Birmingham National! A well handled dog though in hot competition has an edge!

Sharon, Brainless & I, and several others of course own Elkhounds and they are shown straight out of the field, clean yes, but that is about all. And in a way I agree with you, coated breeds do seem to have a lot of consideration given to the preperation of the exhibit but I would hope the judge gives at least equal weight to the conformation and suitability to the original purpose. If the dog is a lap dog or was breed as an accessory then the coat & grooming is of paramount importance but for a gundog I don't think it should count at all as long as the coat is as discribed in the standard, but we all know what fashion can do. Not just getting at gundogs to me the sight I most have difficulty with is a OES in the ring, try to imagin that in a field of sheep. Ja:)kie
now running for cover

Hi Jackie,Going to take my life in my hands now!! Show type OES rounding up sheep? hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha :D

Everyone has their own idea of what is beautiful I supose, afraid I just can't see this one, now clipped off they look Ok but a very large dogs with deformed candyfloss backsides no, not for me but then it's a good thing we all have different taste in dogs else some would become extinct. I'll grab a tin hat quick and dive for cover. Ja:)kie

I'll laugh along with you .......... but can I have a wee giggle at the notion of a show Afghan hound working too ;-)

Afghans should not be trimmed and I don't think most are, but carried so they don't get their feet wet, Still I suppose if you have spent hours bathing and grooming you are upset if they roll in the mud or rush across a river, which given half a chance they will. Ja:)kie

Hi Barbara & Jackie, in the US wolfies & deerhounds get more 'artistic' grooming and are often shown 'strung up'. Both have begun to make an appearance in the UK, and maybe that - and being chronically old-fashioned :-) - is one of the things that makes me less than happy about too much empahasis on grooming/showmanship/presentation :D. As I said, I've no problem with good presentation and handling giving a dog an edge over a poorly presented one, but I'd hate to think that any judge would pass over a better dog because the inferior one was handled better, or worse because the judge knew the pro-handler's face and didn't know the novice with the better dog.

Amen to that! I would hate for the Pro handler to become king. As Jackie and I only show at a limited number of shows per year, I don't think we will ever get to be faces!

Another bug bear to me is having the handler included in show pictures! I have had two pics of me in the dog papers, and can't say I like it.

I want to see the dogs, and only the dogs picture! Must say I crop everything else out when I save them on my computer!

Hi sharon, I have an experience relating to this topic. I was judging an exemption show and the only really good dog there was a glorious Irish Setter, with a totally novice owner. Neither dog nor owner had been to a show before. I gave him his class and then came the BIS bit. I thought long and hard ( unusual some may say :)) and the quality of the dog far outweighed anything else there, so novice or not, I gave him BIS. There was one very put out exhibitor who came an queried my choice and was downright rude to be honest.I told her in no uncertain terms that I was there to judge the dogs and not how well they were handled. However I do realise that it was only an exemption show, and at a bigger event it may well have been a different kettle of fish. I really do believe however, that the quality of the dog is as important as presentation and showmanship, as in your comment of future breeding stock.

"Named handlers" have usually got years of hard earned experience in the showring and understand fully how to get the best out of a dog. They have to know how to work with the dog (one that presumably doesnt live with them) so that it feels relaxed when they are in the ring. If you ever try to stand/show a friends dog that you dont know you will find out its not as easy as they make it look and thats the magic of it!

Quite right. You also find that a 'named handler' will not take on a dog unless it is extremely good and very likely to win.

Joan
Take the rough with the smooth

I was going to say that. If a top handler wanted to show a dog of mine then I would take that as a real complement. We have all seen lovely dogs being poorly shown by an inexperienced owner, who if they stick it out gradually does better and better, whereas the experienced handler would have got their sooner.

There is nopthing that increases your chance of winning, like winning! LOL!!! Now that is something that peeves a bit, when a dog is winning on past record rather than on the performance on that day. No dog can be spot on every show! This isn't sour grapes, as I have also benefited from having a winning run!

That was my thoughts exactly Joan!

I've had 3 dogs that top breeders have said let me handle them I'll get them made up. I am not a beginner and have been in the breed for 20 years and have also been told be a no. of people that I handle my dogs really well. I have always said no to this as if I can't make it up I don't want anybody else to do it. Sorry but my feelings are that if the dogs really good it should be made up no matter who handles it, but it doesn't always happen that way.

Though I have know a very few who have had people who've never shown before win, so you just never know. Does make me laugh though when I go to a show after not showing for a couple of years and there's people staring at you and asking who that new person is.

I do agree with the previous posts - in the hands of a great handler a good dog can become a great dog. And yes, it can come down to the talent and experience which give the extra conditioning, the grooming (in a trimmed breed) and everything else that has been said in the above posts, but there is also that extra something that the very top handlers have - dogs just go beautifully for them, it is a rapport thing.

I am lucky that my 'dog'partner is one of the top people, and whilst I count my lucky stars everytime he is moving one of our co-owned or bred dogs that they always seem to go like a dream for him, it does make me feel a bit useless at times! I can take a puppy over for him to see which has been going very nicely for me during training and at ring-craft, I move it, then he moves it, and it is a different puppy!

We had an instance of this yesterday at Leeds. One of our pups went nicely in the ring for her handler, but not showing herself to full advantage, stretching out too far and poking her head a little. After she had had a little rest her handler moved her for Mike (she went just as she did in the ring) then Mike moved her - different bitch, head up, flying out at the end of the breed, shortened back and perfect topline! When her handler moved her again, following Mikes instructions to the letter, Kitty went almost as well for her.

Some people just have that little extra something, and that is what makes them the tops! Whenever anyone makes the usual "its the face not the dog which is winning" I aske if they have actually looked at the dog when being shown by that handler, and then looked at the competition. Sour grapes is ofter just an excuse for jealousy.