Hiya Bev

Alf doesnt run and launch himself on other dogs, he does have doggy manners; he introduces himself from a distance first and checks the other dog is up for a game, he never mounts neutered dogs, he just gets all silly and whines and kisses their ears - then follows them home

Sorry I'm not having a personal attack on you really, I just get mad and frustrated living in an area with so many irresponsible dog owners who NEVER put thier dogs on leads even along the roads and whom let thier dogs charge up to and dominate and often attack any other dog.  I have to get in my car and drive out of my road with my dogs then park before starting a walk as I have 2 very unfriendly with other dog staffys, 1 staffy x Sharpei, 1GSD and 1 dobermann to negotiate getting past in my road alone.  These dogs are NEVER on a lead and often out loose near thier houses with thier back gates open.
There are only 2 areas to walk in that are relatively safe without driving miles, even then you have to have your wits about you.  We have a lovely big country park but unfortunatly dog attacks by other dogs over there are very high with at least 2 serious ones a week if not more.  3 dogs have died at the hands of other dogs that i know of since OCT last year.
Because of the element that owns these dogs you do not report them if you value your own life.  One silly person did and they and thier primary school age daughter had thier lives threatened, were shot at with air rifles and had thier house torched while they was in bed on more than one occasion, they had to leave the area for thier own safety.  Noone was ever prosecuted as the elements stick together and are each others witnesses.
Unfortunatly all these dogs that i see and come across with these people are entire males just the occasional bitch and I don't blame the dogs its the iressponsible owners who breed them all at a rate of knots and now crossing thier Staffys with Akitas and Sharpeis to see who can produce the most aggresive dogs.  Sadly this means for us responsible owners round here a dog hurtling towards you is not a welcome sight as 95% of the time it means trouble big time.
Unless you have lived this which i hadn't until my husband died and I had to move here, you can't comprehend how frightening it is and how angry you feel that these owners make no attempt to control these dogs which because of thier upbringing are really hormonally aggressive.  Perhaps these dogs having the snip younger may have stopped some of thier agression especially toward other male entire dogs, walking quietly along with a good responsible owner.
In an ideal world of good caring, thoughtful owners we would be able to leave all dogs entire and most bitches unspeyed and in some areas where this rough element don't reside it is equally possible, but in areas like this with so many pups being born, it is far wiser to think and feel that most are better off having the snip young for safetys sake.

Bev

that sounds awful Bev, it makes me feel lucky to live where I do, I rarely see other dogs locally - I actually have to drive away from my home to find some for the boys to play with :rolleyes:

It does make me wonder if neutering would help these aggressive dogs? it can make dogs more aggressive depending on how submissive they were originally, I think it depends on the dog. 

sounds like a few owners round your way need castrating

Best of luck :)

This is what I said in another of my posts - why should people like you have to be the one's taking extreme measures to keep your dog(s) out of the way of other un-neutered dogs who quite frankly should be neutered due to the fact their owners are pretty damn irresponsible?  The point I'm trying to make is that these owners shouldn't have a choice in the matter - if they allow their dogs to act in such a way then why aren't they made to neuter them?  Not all of these owners should have their dogs taken away.  Not all of these owners should not own dogs in the first place.  They just lack the responsibilty of all the 'good' owners whether it be through naeivity (sp?) or whatever.

I don't think it would be exactly ethical to make anyone alter their animals.That to me seems like a slippery slope,what next and who would be deciding who the responsible ones were?

I think the rescue homes should neuter/spay their animals before putting them up for adoption,NOT leave this up to the owners who may or may not do it!

I have never met a dog with this feminisation condition,i really dont think its as common as some people like to think :)

Rescues who mainly deal wtih adult dogs can usually do this (certain Tia Greyhound and Lurcher rescue do with all their adult dogs).

But rescues who DONT, rescues who take on young dogs and pups often cant do this, and id be very very much anti rescues neutering immature puppies, and if there is pressure for them to do this, more people will think its 'fine' when in fact, its NOT.

Em

I think Clairey's making the point that there are some owners who think that, because their dogs are neutered, they can let them run riot, because they've been 'responsible'.

aaaaah! I see :D got it..

sorry, explained a bit more above and you are right JG, other owners always blame my boy and me for not having him neutered :(

Not as bad as a lady at a show the other weekend, we were at the park which is alongside the show ground, my boys were off lead and were all over this ladies bitch, I went and got them and she said it was in season.  I managed to get a fair distance away but Alfie still ran back so instead of waiting for me to come and get him she walked right back into the showground car park with him still following   Some people have no sense, I dont have an issue with people bring in season bitches to shows but why flaunt them around in a public place where anyone could be walking their dog :rolleyes:

if you new the bitch was in season why did you not keep your dog on lead rather then letting him go again surley you would of known he would run straight back to the bitch.:rolleyes:

She was a speck in the distance and he was looking to play with dogs in the opposite direction - unfortunately he got bored with them pretty quick :(

but yes you are right, I should have just kept him on a lead - my fault entirely.

i must admit that if i have a dog that wont leave me alone i dont wait for owner to come and collect the dog, i also walk off if the dogs follows so be it( i would not go any where dangrous to dog i just go into other field). belive me it soon makes them think and also if i see them again they are always kept under cotrol ie on a lead

im sorry but I think that is out of order, if its a regular occurance or the owner does nothing to get the dog back then fine but if the owner is trying there hardest to get their dog back and you march off elsewhere with said dog blatantly following you that is wrong :( I prefer to help people train their dogs, not hinder.

i personaly do not think a dog should  be let off the lead if it cant be trusted to come back when it is called. obviously if the owner is making every effot to recall the dog i would wait and have done, but that said why should me and my dog have our walk ruined by these people who have no control .

i always put all my dogs on leads when i see other people walking their dogs and i do expect the same sort of respect. many times my male dog been attacked by dogs who are not controlled by owners and all this while he has been on the lead and then for the owner to come to me and say my dog does not like other males it really grates

but you cant judge every owner by an irresponsible few :( My dogs both have a good recall (with the exception of my Alf with neutered dogs / bitches in season) but every dog will have its off day, they arent robots.  If I see other dogs on lead or owners putting thier dogs on lead then I do recall mine but if other dogs are off lead I assume they are friendly so let the boys approach.  If I dont want my dogs playing with others then I dont walk them where im likely to bump into other dogs but to me the whole idea of a walk is for them to enjoy themselves and socialise with other dogs.

i dont as i said if they make the effot then so do i. my dog is also let of the lead to play but if the dogs become to much ( my male tends to get bullied) i will leave for the saftey of my dogs then if the dog continues to pester my dog and owner does nothing then that is when i will just walk off.i am not in the habbit off just walking of with other peoples dogs.

>i am not in the habbit off just walking of with other peoples dogs.

sorry, thats the impression you gave though

well that is not the impression i ment to give. what i am saying if people dont make every effot to control their dogs i for one will not be standing there till they get their act together after all i am out to exercise MY dogs.

I totally agree - half of hampshire can hear me trying to get my dog back !!

dont get me wrong my dogs are by no means perfect in fact they are no where near it but i always have respect for other dog walkers. and i realise not every one likes a large hairy white dog slobering all over them even though he thinks they do

sorry but once you are now willfully taking that dog further out of eyesight and more importantly earshot of its owner..that is just plain dangerous to me :rolleyes:
My opinion of course depend how we all gauge 'dangerous', to me it doesnt just mean the immediate area.

Alfie lost me once on a walk, he chased a pheasant then couldnt find me (although I was calling him) so he went home, thankfully he only had to cross two roads which were very quiet but you never know :(  

gosh he was lucky! whenever our labs go in the gorse/thick bushes they know not to go far from there- i think if they couldnt find us for some reason and ran home- they'd definitley get run over!

Its the only time its ever happened, I had my other boy on a flexi because he was recovering from an op, and we were walking in a field on the other side of the footpath to which we usually walk down and I think he just got confused (I think he usually relies on my other boy to find me :rolleyes: )  It was scary.  He has learnt now the importance of keeping up with me because I bike with them and if he stops to sniff to long im gone (but always keeping a watchful eye on the silly sod :rolleyes: )

>so instead of waiting for me to come and get him she walked right back into the showground car park with him still following mad  Some people have no sense<

yeah this one gets me too :D can never understand why people do that.
The behaviourist we have working with our 'amorous' with his own sex Husky has been fantastic and Ive learnt soo much, well worth every second I spend with her..but do begrudge  spending out and taking time,effort and travel where others dont, on the other side of the fence.
   actually I only begrudge it a little ;) as i'd pay or do anything to have a content settled dog.

If I have a dog following me I always wait until the owner has got it back under control or until he comes and gets it - especially if they are walking in the opposite direction to me ;)

i had to walk away with a dog following us- had to as this dog was overpowering mine and if i stayed still my dog would have got defensive as the other dog was pushing her and smelling her all over- everytime the man called him he went back but as soon as his owner walked off again- the dog would coming running again!!! we did nothing wrong, it was the fact that that dog found my dog more interesting than his owner.
sounds as though your dog needs to find you more fun- that way he will stay near/come when called.

Unfortunately he is an adolenscent Setter and nothing I do makes me more fun (trust me ive tried :rolleyes: ) my other boy went through it too and has now come out the otherside, im waiting for Alf to do the same.  We have just started clicker training which is looking promising.  Im not the sort of owner who will keep letting my dog go back, I get him once, depending whether he is fighting to get back to the other dog will depend on whether I put him on the lead or let him go again - if he goes back a second time he goes on the lead and stays on the lead

I'm not saying that any dog should be allowed to "run riot" but the fact of the matter is some owners do allow this so why aren't them dogs neutered to save everbody elses from unwanted pregnancy/impregnating?

"There is nothing more annoying than taking a walk on a dog filled beach with my boys picking out EVERY neutered male dog and generally making nuisances of themselves[...]"

Well, our previous male (who was not castrated) loved the same sex, used to "sniff them out" and 'flirted' with them be it a castrated  dog or not!  He was gay - it can and does happen in the animal world you know ;)

I hope Alf isnt gay *all thoughts of being used at stud fly out of the window*

He really does only go after neutered dogs, you can tell from a distance, if its an entire male he acts completely differently and usually come hurtling back within minutes, if its neutered then he spends ages kissing and flirting with it - and doesnt come back :(

I was 'joe bloggs' once, as were many people. I knew a fair amount about dogs, but NO ONE, not ONE person EVER told me in response to questions regarding neutering, the downsides of doing so.

I had 'neutering will stop xxx and yyy and zzz' rammed down my throat by every single person i asked, vets, dog trainers, dog owners blah blah etc. I did it.

Because i was NOT told that my dog may suffer a drop in confident, might smell like a girl etc, i was TOTALLY unprepared for his complete change in character, from a happy go lucky little lad to a cowardly bully who pinned other dogs down before they had the chance to kick his backside.

Thinking that that was my fault because id had him done at 16 months, i had the next dog neutered at 6 months.
He's a lovely puppy - at nearly four years old. He has not the abilities of an adult dog to reprimand a pup, so my current pup is terrorising him - where my other dogs can tell the pup off, Dill cant because he still IS a puppy.

The responsible people who would neuter their dogs are NOT the people who let their dogs wander and add to the unwanted dogs in rescues. You will never convince the morons of this world to neuter their dogs, and responsible or not, i am NOT neutering my latest male dog until or unless there is a sound medical reason to do so, currently, there is not.

If i had a dog from a rescue id not sign anything saying id neuter that dog until it was mature - and for some breeds, 7 -9 months as most rescues state is NOT mature at all - my pup is 10 months and showing absolutely no signs of maturity yet!

Em

"If i had a dog from a rescue id not sign anything saying id neuter that dog until it was mature [...]"

Many of the larger rescues wouldn't rehome a dog without such papers signing as they are taking it upon themselves to do what they believe to be the responsible thing for the dog by ensuring the new owners get the dog neutered so as to save from unwanted pregnancy/impregnating.

Yep and thats why i wont take a dog on from them. I know what they are trying to do and i know why and i think its a good thing - but im not signing myself up to live with hyet another dog who is suffering from the side effects of being neutered too early!

Em

But not all dogs do suffer "side effects" :rolleyes:

Nope they dont, but you have to admit its a bit of a git when you find out when its too late, that its possible nad it has in fact happened!

Im not anti neutering (i have five dogs, only one is entire), i am anti the 'neutering cures all and has no bad side effects whatsoever' bullcr*p i hear time and time again!

Em

Well I have no intention of being neutered, and have been celibate now for 13 years without any problems.

It is actually quite natural for many animals ot never reproduce as nature has deemed it aht only the fittest and in many cases the most dominant individuals have that priveledge.

It isn't the only responsible thing to do, the responsible thing to do is to keep your dog/bitches in such a way that they do not produce unwanted litters.

Prevention of mating is the first.  Prevention of pregnancy following misalliance is second, and thirdly the pregnant bitch can be spayed if all else fails.

There is no need for routine neutering for males, and for very young bitches.  There are significant health benefits in the middle aged bitch to being spayed.  Many humans at the same stage in their lives succumb to uterine ills that necesitate hysterectomies.

Maybe people would understand better that these are serious operations that are given these euphamistic terms, Spaying, Neutering, being done.

We are talking Ovariohysterectomy and Castration (not the snip or a vasectomy).  Complete removal of the sexual organs, which affect the whole metabolism and cause hormonal imbalance once the sex hormones are removed. 

Any woman that has had a hysterectomy, or gone through menopause can testify that the lack of hormonmes is not without it's effects on wellbeing.

We probably don't ahve much contact with Eunuchs anymore, but there is enough evidence to show that it affected their developement, and health.

>or gone through menopause

Yes, I can certainly agree that my lack of functioning ovaries has had quite serious physical and mental ill-effects.

So how can peopel inflict that on baby pups of 8 weeks to 8 months, for population control?  Wehn soem proper care and attention is all that is needed.

And aren't humans one of the only species to have sex for pleasure? So by not neutering my dog I am not giving him a lifetime of frustration in the same way a human male would think of it ;)

I think dolphins do it for pleasure too - could be wrong though, it has been known ;)

And bonobos, I think.

"It isn't the only responsible thing to do, the responsible thing to do is to keep your dog/bitches in such a way that they do not produce unwanted litters.

Prevention of mating is the first.  Prevention of pregnancy following misalliance is second, and thirdly the pregnant bitch can be spayed if all else fails."

I didn't say it was "the only responsible thing to do".  The point that I've been trying to get across (and obviously failing) is that the majority of dog owners aren't like the majority of people on this board i.e. what would be called 'responsible owners'.  So, to stop unwanted pregnancy/impregnating with the 'other type' of owners who aren't going to be taking much in the way of preventative measures neutering is the key

As in all things, education is the key. ;) :)

Why should some owners have to hole up their in season bitch for fear of the randy dogs allowed to roam loose on their estate making her pregnant?  Why should some owners of intact males have to try their dambdest to obstruct nature and ensure that if they get even the sligtest whiff of an in season bitch the dog is on its best behaviour and responds immaculately to the command of "Now Rover, I know that your mind and body are, to whatever degree, quite excited by the scent of this girl but you really must just concentrate on your walk and a bit of playing with the tuggy ok!".  Why should some owners have to physcially separate a dog and a bitch in two different rooms of the house, and 100% ensure that at no point do either 'meet' for 2 months of every year of their lives to prevent an unwanted litter?  Why?  Is it just because it could change a dogs coat, could make them incontinent, could make a castrated dog 'more appealing' to intact male dogs?  All of these things happen in the minority of cases :rolleyes:

Why should people do all those things? Because we choose to keep another species in an alien environment. ;)

Don't forget that a GA is in itself a health risk, and dogs can and do die from even minor operations, let alone major surgery.

Why should some owners have to hole up their in season bitch for fear of the randy dogs allowed to roam loose on their estate making her pregnant?

Are you suggesting it's ok for neutered dogs to roam around then ? &  someone with an unneutered in season bitch is ok to take it past my drive way leaving a trail of scent behind et as she is followed by castrated dogs which BTW are able to mate bitches(& are actually still fertile for anundefined period after castration-try finding out how long a dof remains fertile after castration-no one can tell you )

What is responsible is not to let any dog out on it's own, training all dogs, not dragging in season bitches where other dogs frequent & not leaving in season bitches outside unsupervised

Just because a dog is castrated doesn't automatically turn it into a impotent ennuch No one can explain to a dog that it can't mate bitches just because it testicles have been removed.

Why should I if I choose to own a bitch have to have my dogs neutered because they "might" have a mating(although they never did in 30 + years of having mixed entire sexes in the house)

I can see the point in spaying bitches as I have had virgin & brood bitches develop pyrometras & it does prevent this life threatening illness, but a surgical procedure is no substitute for being a responsible owner & reponsible owners don't let their dogs out on the streets  alone & have secure gardens period.

"Are you suggesting it's ok for neutered dogs to roam around then ?"

Of course not!!!  I'm saying that the people who do allow their dogs to roam free (highly irresponsible people) should have atleast got them neutered to save all the responsible owners un-neutered dogs/bitches!

"&  someone with an unneutered in season bitch is ok to take it past my drive way leaving a trail of scent behind et as she is followed by castrated dogs which BTW are able to mate bitches[...]"

Well, if that person chooses not to have their bitch neutered and chooses to take it past your driveway then it ain't my fault is it - they should be getting their bitch spayed shouldn't they!

"What is responsible is not to let any dog out on it's own [...]"

Exactly, but the point is that many people do! So, they should be ensuring their dogs/bitches are neutered to save from unwanted pregnancies in bitches or their dogs inpregnating some other poor bitch!

"Just because a dog is castrated doesn't automatically turn it into a impotent ennuch"

I'm fully aware of that - but what it does do, is ensure that the dog cannot make a bitch pregnant!

"Why should I if I choose to own a bitch have to have my dogs neutered because they "might" have a mating(although they never did in 30 + years of having mixed entire sexes in the house)"

People like you Moonmaiden, and others on this board are sadly in the minority.

"a surgical procedure is no substitute for being a responsible owner & reponsible owners don't let their dogs out on the streets  alone & have secure gardens period."

In an ideal world this would be the case!  However, a great number of dog owners are unfortunately what would be classed as 'irresponsible' (either naive or downright pig ignorant) in some if not many ways.

I'm fully aware of that - but what it does do, is ensure that the dog cannot make a bitch pregnant

Not immediately & there is no hard & fast time by which they become infertile as some paternity tests done on puppies have proved ie the sire  being a castrated dog done some months before conception