Yeah I agree!  But you're a 'responsible owner' and therefore able to make a 'responsible decision'!  Many other dog owners aren't :rolleyes: It is these dog owners I'm talking about not the majority of people on here who I would assume (and hope) are 'responsible owners'.  I have been generalising a lot but obviously many people have not gathered that and taken my comments very personally.  Most irresponsible pet owners do not seek/take any advice whatsoever about the welfare of their pet(s) least of all look on here!  That is why I assumed (obviously wrongly) that you would all understand that I wasn't 'implying', as someone said, that I was talking about the members of this forum.  I am referring to the 'bigger picture' but nobody seems to understand that we live in the real world and there are more irresponsible than responsible owners about - hence the overflowing pounds and rescue centres full of un-neutered pets (many found wandering the streets having been abandoned) and their offspring, countless numbers having to be put down.  What I'm finding very difficult to say, and even more difficult to make people understand, is that just because the members of this forum are 'responsible' does not mean that everyone else is 'responsible' in the same way.  In an ideal world everyone would have the same knowledge/ability/want to make an informed decision.

but what people are saying is its the responsible ones who take the vets advice and get there dog neutered then cant understand why Rovers coat has gone fluffy and all the other dogs find him attractive.  Irresponsible owners dont get their dogs castrated and they are the ones producing the unwanted litters - because they are irresponsible.

Yes, and what I'm trying to get across to you is that you're preaching to the choir.  When you bring up a topic such as this and toss out statements such as 'the responsible thing to do is neuter your dog' (not a direct quote but you get the idea) you must expect a reaction like the one you've gotten.  I don't think anyone has disagreed with you that the best thing would be to have all irresponsible owners alter their pets.  You have generalized a lot, this is true and possibly therein lies the problem with your post. 

Every pet owner that is worth their salt understands that not everyone is like them.  We understand that while we treat our pets a certain way, the guy nextdoor may not.  I can handle a dog/bitch that hasn't been altered, I must assume that the next person can't.  Always expecting the worst and hoping for the best.

hence the overflowing pounds and rescue centres full of un-neutered pets (many found wandering the streets having been abandoned) and their offspring, countless numbers having to be put down.

Again, such a generalization.  What are the 'countless numbers'?  How do you know they are 'full' of unaltered pets and their offspring.  I, personally, have never seen a dog family walking down the street.  Do you see what I'm saying to you?  This is why the reaction.  When you say things like this, I'm much more apt to take you seriously if you can state some numbers or use a specific example.

If you want to speak in general terms, broaden it a bit.  In the grand scheme of things, irresponsible people shouldn't own pets.  (That's a whole other can or worms).

>In the grand scheme of things, irresponsible people shouldn't own pets.

That's the crux of it, in a nutshell!

"[...] you're preaching to the choir."

I'm not preaching at all thank you very much!  Like I've said in a previous post a forum is a place where people air their opinions and I'm airing mine just as you are airing yours.  I have not written anything which is improper/biased/unfounded.  I have not stated my opinions to 'wind up' other posters.  I am being general and talking primarily about dogs (who have owners otherwise this wouldn't be a board about dog ownership would it?) and you have started talking about me personally - please refrain :p

"[...] you must expect a reaction [...]"

I expected responses to the main posters topic.  I exptected responses to some of my posts.  I expected to respond to some of the responses made to some of my posts.  I didn't expect someone 'demanding proof' for something that is well known   I didn't expect comments to start to get personal when I have never been personal myself (and I don't believe I've ever got 'personal' in the past either).  I didn't expect some posters to be saying that they'd neuter a bitch but not a male - why?  If one owner has a bitch and one owner has a dog why, if both owners are pro-neutering shall we say, is it 'accpetable' for the bitch owner to get their dog desexed but not deemed necessary for the dog owner to get theirs done?   Why is their all this talk about 'castrating a dog feminises it'.  If a dog has no testicles and no longer creates the hormones that it would have been does not turn it into a female!  Yes, it will possibly have a different scent and if some males (entire or not) find this scent attractive then each to their own.  It doesn't mean that all do!

I'm talking generally (i.e. UK wide) and other people are being very specific about what they have seen which, lets be fair, considering the UK population of dogs is a very tiny proportion!

:)

I agree with much, although not all, of what you are saying Peewee but I would like to add to the earlier poster who commented on how well you had conducted this debate.  You are perfectly right it should never get personal but well done you for being so eloquant and never loosing it :)

As I agree with some but not all of what some other people say regarding any topic be it online or in the real world   Thanks for your kind words Isabel :)

"I, personally, have never seen a dog family walking down the street."

I didn't say that there were families of dogs walking down the street :rolleyes:  The point I was making is that the pups in pounds/shelters have a mother and a father.  Many of the dogs in pounds/shelters have had/sired pups.  If the parents were 'aletered' and their offspring in turn, etc etc then there wouldn't be this continuous issue of unwanted dogs and pups would there?

"People who want to breed their dog with the dog next door aren't going to nuter their pets and they are the biggest cause of overpopulation."

If that was the case why are so many new born pups abandoned or handed in to shelters as these "breeders" would sell them to make money not give them up!?

I wouldn't imagine the people who would dump puppys would  be the sort to take their pets to get nutered either.

But if neutering we're made 'easier' and 'advertised' more (for want of better descriptions) like with Cats - the RSPCA have posters up saying they give out vouchers for neutering a cat over 6 months old - then a lot more of your average dog owners (which lets face it are the type to not be particularly 'responsible' cos it costs too much to fence the garden, is far easier to let the dog go 'walkies' by itself and probably wouldn't occur to them to get their dog 'altered' - especially if male and the man owner has 'issues' with the whole cutting of its balls thing :rolleyes: ) would be inclined to do the sensible thing for their dog wouldn't they!?

But if neutering we're made 'easier' and 'advertised' more (for want of better descriptions) like with Cats - the RSPCA have posters up saying they give out vouchers for neutering a cat over 6 months old -

But they DO. My vets have ALWAYS had the Dogs Trust posters up saying they can neuter a dog for £25.

Goldmali, in another post I explained that I meant such 'schemes' should be available to more people i.e. not just people receiving a particular benefit :)

Oh okay, sorry peewee! :)

Quite alright :)

"So I don't think I can be classed as irresponsible well not IMHO anyway"

I didn't say you were :)

But you imply that people who choose not to neuter their dogs are irresponsible. :(

If you took it that way then apologies as that is not what I'm saying :)

thank's everyone for your replies. the topic went off subject now and then , but made for good reading. i have contacted bob at the staffy recue for advice on the said subject. he said if it was his dog 12 to 15 months. i will see how our boy develops and take it from there. thank's again to everybody. all the best steve.

Yeah, it has gone off on a tangent a bit hasn't it! haha  That's the beauty of forums - they're full of people with opinions all wanting to be heard - me included ;)

Peewee, I just wanted to congratulate you on how you handled this topic! Some people were very negative towards you and you still didn't get upset, just a little frustrated. I did too, (frustrated). I knew where you were coming from. I know lots of people who won't neuter coz they may want to breed their bitch in the future. Unfortunately they are not experienced breeders and one of my family members had an accident last year. Their bitch was in season and they let her off to play and didn't pay much attention, when lo and behold........an entire male came bounding over and had his wicked way with her ! Sadly, my relative was totally unprepared for this and really didn't know what to do. The owner of the male was more interested in the money making side of it, thinking how much could they sell the puppies for Well, my relative didn't let on to the other owner that the bitch was pregnant (they didn't know themselves until it was too late) and their bitch had 4 puppies, but only 1 survived. My guess is coz they had no knowledge of whelping. Anyway, they didn't neuter her after this either coz she was too overweight so in the end they gave her to Battersea Dogs Home. I wanted to take her myself but we just couldn't. Still keep thinking of her and feel so sad.......

They told me they would have neutered her if it had been cheaper.

So I am right with you Peewee.

Education, Education, Education

there should be an exam to own a dog :rolleyes:

nice one guy's this topic is really going down well. glad i posted it now.i must admit if people saw me and my wife walking our staff they would think eh up, long haired hippy, wife pregnant, 3 kids already, live on a concil estate. this in sad peoples lives = chav. whatever one of them is. i gave up work so my wife could go to uni to study to be a nurse. i get on with everyone that i meet, if they talk to me i will talk to them. why are people like this just because you have a staffy. they are a lot of good people that own staffs, then again they are some idiots that have them as well. they think they are a hard dog, yeah right.ours will lick you to death that's about it. well thats my moan over , thank's again to all your replies look forward to your views on this. all the best steve.

In an ideal world there would be an exam to own any animal AND one to assess whether or not people should get married/have children/etc.  But this is not an ideal world which is my point :rolleyes:

"Peewee, I just wanted to congratulate you on how you handled this topic! Some people were very negative towards you and you still didn't get upset, just a little frustrated."

Thanks!  I try not to take message boards personally as they are text based which can be misinterpreted - hence the reason I've posted so many responses trying (in vain) to get my point across exactly how I mean it ;)  I don't know (or don't think I know) any of the members here personally, and I know that they don't know me.  If this were a face to face conversation people would see me not getting heated about this, listening attentively to their opinion(s) and simply discussing this 'topic' with a relaxed attititude :)

I know lots of people who won't neuter coz they may want to breed their bitch in the future. Unfortunately they are not experienced breeders

Presumably every experienced breeder on here was once an inexperienced first time breeder ?

Aah but they quite possible got a bitch/dog from 'good stock', which had had all the relevant health checks done, had a full pedigree etc etc and continued that.  I think what the OP was referring to was the "breeders" who will breed from a dog/bitch purely cos they think it looks good/healthy

Plus have an experienced breeder as a mentor :)

Not quite as queens come into season more often than bitches & of course cats are much harder to stop from wandering.

Sorry I'm late here! Also allowing a queen to call WILL in the long run make her ill. There is no such thing as twice yearly seasons in cats. Queens normally call roughly every 3 weeks, sometimes less in the winter. If not mated, each call will become longer and longer and instead of lasting for 5 days, will eventually last for a week, 2 weeks, 3 weeks, until in the end they call for a month at a time with just a week or so break, which ends up causing ovarian cysts, and of course a lot of weight loss as they will not eat well when in call. Add to this the fact that you cannot keep an entire male cat indoors at all for long (and should NEVER be allowed outside if entire, for millions of reasons), as they will spray and unlike in dogs, no training can be done to stop it.

Goldmali, how do cat breeders deal with this ? do cats have injections to stop the seasons ? I used to have a ferret and the only thing that would bring them out of a season was a trip to the vet or a castrated male ferret to mate

Well some use the pill but it's risky, so basically it's a question of breeding the litter/s you want, then neutering. Usually one litter a year works out okay. As we have special classes for neuters at shows in cats, it's common to have a Champion cat, breed from it, then neuter, and then you can start showing again and go for the Premier (=a neuter's version of Champion)  title instead and giving your cat double titles. :)

Others go a step further and use the cotton bud method :D which means sticking a cotton bud up your female cat to make her THINK she has just been mated, which stops her  calling for a few weeks. Never tried it myself!

"The cotton bud method"- OMG! Thats hilarious goldmali! poor queen... LOL

LOL@ the cotton bud method, must have the similar effect of putting a female ferret with a neutered male

That is interesting as Rabbits ovulate after mating.  so they don't have a problem health wise by not being mated, but it means they are always fertile unless pregnant or suffering a phantom pregnancy if mated to an infertile male.