Hi, does anyone have any information on a chocolate lab dual champion dog going by the name of "Deeds" from Sussex?

Tlast dual champion was Knaith Banjo who was born in 1946, and As far as I am aware, there has never been a Chocolate Dual Champ.

I didn't think there had ever been a chocolate FT Champ, let alone full champion.

You are both quite right - there has never been a chocolate Field Trial Champion and certainly never a chocolate Dual Champion. I don't personally believe there will ever be another Dual Champion as our breed is and has been moving in two different directions for many years, however we currently do have one yellow dog in the breed (only!) who is a (show-ring) CH AND has field trial awards and that is CH Carpenny Anchorman. 

There is currently no chocolate (or any other colour for that matter) even half way close to making up in the ring and even running commendably in a trial, let alone getting an award except this lovely boy (Anchor). There have been a few close calls in the last 25 years, Ch Abbeystead Herons Court for one (hard pushed to think of another....) but sadly these are few.

Di

You mean you haven't see half the ads on the internet :rolleyes:    ( couldn't help it sorry folks)

I don't thing there is a chocolate FTCh, but a CH is a SH CH that has a show dog working certificate.  This tests that the dog can retrieve game to hand, is not gunshy, enter water and hunt cover, in other words, has the ability to work.  Commendable, but obviously a long way from being a FTCH.

There has not been a Dual Champion Labrador in 50 years...

Yes, I was trying to explain the difference between a Dual champion and a CH (obviously not very well ;) )

So Knaith Banjo how has he influenced the Labs as we know now ?

Sorry a novice ( hope in the future when I start on the rocky road of breeding :D )  but if he was the last duel champ  then did it rock the way showing etc and the way show vs working Labs have developed ?

Knaith Banjo. They seem to have changed a lot since then ...

Stunning dog

That is how I keep my girls (weight wise)  He is what I would want my Labs to be

He's a cracker, isn't he? :)

What a gorgeous Lab - I see what that other thread means about some of today's Labs being too chunky!

The dogs of 50 years ago were indeed very different to today's show ones.

I love those old types.....Those are what I am aiming for ...... but to quote Margaret Thatcher.... Not in my lifetime :(

I havent enough years left to see it happen

I think there are a few lines around like this or similar in ways .. I really don't think all the show lines are heavy.  Sh CH Stajantor Robin I personally think is a good example of a dog I think looks a balanced dog that can do a days work also.  I have read this in many a critique to.  I really like his type when I saw him a few years back.

I think the show world is even divided BUT boy is the working one divided,  some ugly ( imho) working lines around now .. thin pointy snippy faces. I don't think they even look like labradors or certainly my interpretation of one.  So may working lines breed for working only without a look at the breed standard. Just wished they would all work together. :rolleyes:

I think there are a lot of people around in the show world trying to get a balance also..

Ah thanks - I was fairly sure there was a difference between Ch and dual Ch, but was also sure that a dual Ch had to be a FTCh as well as ShCh, and there hasn't been a chocolate one yet. If you see what I mean! :o

Chocs will never be there due to genetics and also because Judges as well IMHO

There are people who work chocolates and are trying to promote them 

http://chocolate-labradors.org.uk/flash.html

He is absolutely gorgeous - so like our "old" boys & girls that we owned.

Margot

Hi, 
Chocs are there, and there are some really fantastic working lines, Swallowbarn, Grangemead, Fernvalley being just some and have been for nearly 40 years!  As for in the show ring, more chocs are winning nowadays and I am sure that they will be there too. 

Indiana Hope, I think the dog you are looking for is owned by Di Stevens, Wylanbriar.

"really fantastic working lines,..."

Well, when you have a look at the pedigrees it's all bench & pet - can't see where the working lines are supposed to be or for that matter been for 40 yrs!

Sorry, but you are totally wrong.  I know of some really good working chocolate labs that are in the field trials on a regular basis.  Watching them work is no different to a black or yellow.  They have the same working quality my chocolate does not work at the moment but her father still does and her grandfather is taking America by a storm, having won several FTAW in this country first.

"I know of some really good working chocolate labs" Well, I don't doubt the working ability - nevertheless the lines are more or less of bench origin!

It would be lovely to know who is this chocolate labrador "taking America by a storm, having won several FTAW in this country first."

Colonel Nut of Grangemead, and if you have any questions I suggested you contact them yourselves. .  Also, talking of bench origin I do not understand why you feel that FT CH Tasco Dancing Brave of Willowyck is also not a good working ability, surely not just
Bench lines!!!  After all the Chocolate coat gene is originated from Black and Yellow coat genes, that have mutated to provide chocolate.  Which is why chocolate can throw Black or Yellow back in.

Chocolate cannot throw black,
they either carry just the choc gene or they have both the choc and yellow gene.

Coat colour not mixed up at all.  A chocolate who carries black can through black its all in the coat genetics which you can have them tested for.  In any case that is not what I said exactly, what I said was that Chocolates go back to Black!!!!  Anyway if a chocolate cannot throw black how come mine did?  If you only breed chocolate to chocolate you only get chocolate in general that is the rule.  Put chocolate to Black can get Black or Chocolate, if both the dogs carry yellow you can get a tri-coloured litter. 

CHOCOLATES DO NOT CARRY BLACK

IF A CHOCOLATE IS MATED TO A BLACK WHO CARRIES CHOCOLATE, LITTER RESULTS IN 50% CHOCOLATE, 50% BLACK.FORM THIS LITTER, CHOCOLATES ARE PURE CHOCOLATES, BLACK WILL BE CARRYING CHOCOLATE.

Did you not look on the vetgen website?  www.vetgen/color.com

>Anyway if a chocolate cannot throw black how come mine did? If you only breed chocolate to chocolate you only get chocolate in general that is the rule.  Put chocolate to Black can get Black or Chocolate, if both the dogs carry yellow you can get a tri-coloured litter.<

So your black puppy from your chocolate bitch got its colour from the black Sire

Excuse me, but if you read what i just said its just what you said.  I did not say which was which in the coat colouring.  I was just using my bitch as an example.  But as for who carries the coat colour its a bit irrelevant when really this debate started over how poor chocolates were.  I just stated that Chocolates originated from Black and Yellow and that chocolates should not be slatted for their colour, because colour does not prove brains or working ability.  As Northern Pack keeps stating that all Chocolates are from only Bench and pet lines.  Which is not the case.

Yes part of what you said is correct, a basic understanding of genetics, but you also asked why your chocolate bitch produced a black puppy, so if you understood fully genetics and had been "studying" it, then should know how you got a black puppy which you clearly didn't.It didn't come from your bitch.You said :

>A chocolate who carries black can through black its all in the coat genetics which you can have them tested for

I'm not debating whether they are from show stock or working stock and I agree they shouldn't be predujiced against for their coat colour, it just annoys me when poeple say that chocolates throw blacks when they clearly don't :)
I personally think chocolate labradors are the best thing since sliced bread :D but I know others would never consider them, as for temperments and behaviour, I believe that your dog is often what you make it.

I'm interested here too - reading the messages as a whole I do not believe anyone on here (yet) said that 'chocolates were poor....' Maybe I missed a message. I think one of the problems in our breed, as someone who owns breeds shows and works all three colours (but the majority are chocolate), is that folks get too tied up in colour and think less about quality, type and temperament. They stubbornly feel that chocolates needs sticking up for left right and centre, when the only way people are going to begin to understand that a coat colour is a coat colour but a dog is a dog is by going out there and by putting in the blood, sweat, gravy and tears that PROVING that the chocolate gene pool is strong enough to produce good dual purpose dogs is. Currently, to be frank, it is not.

The reason that many judges do not place some of the chocolates in the ring today is because they are not as good as the black or yellow standing next to them. There ARE a few judges who think the only good chocolate is a cardless chocolate or a chocolate who has been asked to 'have his lead put back on' (triallers??!!) However from experience I know that when you have, sometimes, the only chocolate in the class or on the test or trial card, they stand out a MILE and so, therefore, they damn well BETTER be good or they simply scream 'look at me I'm renforcing your stereotype, Mrs Judge, that chocolates are crap!' And then.... ironically....the owner has an excuse to moan that the judge hates chocolates because they WEREN'T PLACED! Its just an excuse for continuing to breed poor dogs for some.

That is exactly where the chocolate gene pool has gone and how the number of decent dogs to use in this country of that colour to even have a stab at keeping along the dual purpose lines, you can put on one hand, and thats only if you lost a couple of fingers in a tragic boating accident! ;-)
Di

I'd just like to say "welcome, Di"! You sound like a person with solid knowledge and a realistic view of the current condition of this great breed.  :)

Hi Di, I'm not in Labradors, but I like your style, you speak from experience, and shoot from the hip. I hope you become a regular visitor and contributer to Champdogs. Welcome. :)

Dawn R.

Snap again JG, is it a case of ''great minds''.

Dawn R.

Absolutely!

>A chocolate who carries black

No! A chocolate cannot carry black. It's not possible, because the black gene is dominant to chocolate - if the dog has it, it'll show it.

Black, however, can carry chocolate. If you mate a black (carrying chocolate) to a chocolate statistically you'll get a mixed litter. If you mate a black not carrying chocolate you'll get no chocolates. Your chocolate bitch's litter will inherit black through the black sire, not through the bitch - because she doesn't have the gene.

This might help.

Regarding coat colour genetics...the easy way to look at it is that black is the 'default' colour in our breed. So any dog of any colour when mated to a dog of any colour, if both don't carry the colour (yellow or chocolate accordingly) the mating will default to black. Black is an 'absence' of any other shared colour gene present in both parents. It absolutely cannot be 'carried' - its just there, like a big looming dark marker pen to fill in any blanks left by other marker pens missing from the set! ;-)

The number of people with black bitches - generally from working or trial lines who call wishing to use one of the chocolates at stud because it would be 'nice to have a half and half litter' are baffled by the fact it matters not a jot that Daddy is a brown boy if mummy doesn't carry the chocolate gene in the first place!
Di

Welcome Di, I hope you did not mind me naming you :-)   I trust that my information was correct and I did meet Deeds
x

Hi no problem at all! Sorry to sound a idiot but I can't work out from your login who you are... ??

Di

Yes, cprice996, Nut may well be one of the very few exceptions in chocolate labs to have gained a UK FT award. However "to have taken US by storm" is heavily exaggerated as the dog has never participated in any official AKC recognized field trials in US!  :rolleyes:

He may have been awarded in totally unofficial f/t's organized by the importing kennel - which is fine but no way recognized by AKC or the field trial fraternity in US..

Your knowledge on coat colour inheritance seems to be a bit messed up - here you have a most informative link: http://www.vetgen.com/color.html

Coat colour not mixed up thank you.  Do not need you to tell me about coat colour have been studying it for long enough. Already have the tread thanks.  Anyway as we all know sometimes in labradors we get little surprises!  Its all about tracing the pedigree as far back as you can, throw backs are always possible.

By the way glad you agree the Nut was exception!!!  After all you slated all chocolates

>Coat colour not mixed up thank you.  Do not need you to tell me about coat colour have been studying it for long enough. Already have the tread thanks.  Anyway as we all know sometimes in labradors we get little surprises!  Its all about tracing the pedigree as far back as you can, throw backs are always possible.<

Think you need to do a bit more studying. :(

Chocomolly, your suggestion to 'cprice' wholeheartedly seconded!

Quite alarming that a breeder's depth of knowledge is of that category!

Havent quite wholeheartedly seconded.  Not alarming either, you obviously have a big problem with chocolates to not give them an ounce of credit.

Lucy - I'm interested in what you mean when you refer to chocolates not getting there (presumably being influential and successful in Field trials) because of 'genetics'? Do you mean our relatively small gene pool or something else?

Di

Yes the small gene pool and the fact it is known they are often harder to train and often take longer to train :)

I am sure they are many good chocolates that do work and have seen a few myself but I think by reputation most people go for yellow and blacks for working :)

Lucy,

I can assure you that chocolates are not harder to train nor take longer to train than any other dog which omes 99% of the time from show and pet bred lines. It is a far more complex issue which, briefly is mostly based around the fact that, indeed, most chocolate lines ARE show or pet lines, and after many generations of breeding purely for looks or temperament only, the working drive has long since started to fade in these lines. The biddability. The natural gamefinding instinct. The ability to handle pressue for any length of time during training. The concentration factor. This goes for ALL show and pet lines in our breed, regardless of colour.

God knows the field bred lines fall down in looks often and quality of temperament and certainly 'type' a lot of the time, that said.

So in conclusion, the 'hard to train' idea is merely because of their lines NOT tending to be field lines. This goes for yellows and blacks from show lines too. They also tend to be built as their hereitage would dictate, slightly heavier and stockier than the field lines, and therefore for a START field people will knock them down as 'fat' 'chunky' 'couldn't do a days work if it slapped them in the face' before they even get out the car! (And this comes from someone who has entirely show bred dogs but works them through working tests, years of picking up on taxing shoots to running in Novice trials) - they DO have training disadvantages - but its matters not a damn the coat colour, its what is running through their veins that counts.

The stereotype that chocolates are any harder to train than any other colour must stop one day - its boring, insulting and utterly misplaced - but Lucy it didn't start with you of cours my friend and it won't END with you either so its a 'head against a brick wall' jobbie! ;-)

SHOW dogs are harder to train NOT CHOCOLATES.... (Did I shout that loud enough? Wink)
Di

Hi there,
I believe you are speaking of one of my young chocolates - Pawcrest Amie'able Star for Wylanbriar - Deeds. Much as I would give my right arm for him to be a dual champion, as further messages have explained this isn't the case. He passed his SGWC and won the Charway trophy at the LRC SGWC day back in January but this is many miles from taking more than a hop towards any dual Ch goals. His championship show awards and SGWC make him part of my private passion for dual purpose ability chocolates - however he isn't dual purpose yet as I have high standards for this sort of a noble label and he has a long way to go to even get a sniff at a Novice trial run in a year or two!
Maybe you would like to contact me privately (wylanbriarlabs@aol.com) should you wish to talk further on him for any specific reason.
Diana Stevens - Wylanbriar Labradors

Welcome Di, great to have you on the forum :)

Diana I am with you as would love to see more chocolates working believe me

I am no expert by any means as neither show or work as do not have the time but in the future do intend to do both when I am without the commitments I have :)

Sorry are you US or GB based ?