Has anyone had experience of this.  My 6month GSD has always been very 'mouthy'. I have has 2 GSD's before and neither was anywhere near as bad as this.  Anyway, we did as you should, and yelped, if he bit hard but to no avail.  The taining class we attend is run by a very nice lady who is a member of the APDT and seems very sensible and knowledgeable.  Because this wasn't working, she advised saying OH OH and if he didn't stop, removing him from the room for 20 seconds or so.  We did this, but eventually he must have decided that if he was being taken out anyway, he may as well make the most of it, and was jumping up and grabbing your arm (or anything else), as you took him out of the room. The trainer came out to the house to see him, but although he nibbled at her hand a couple of times, he didn't go on,, the way he usually does. Outside he will grab your hand and anything else. I would tell him to sit and turn my back on him for 20 seconds.  Sometimes works. He will usually take hold of your hand if you try to move him or stop him doing something.
I am getting REALLY worried as the biting is actually getting harder. Last week he was biting outside and I told him to sit and turn my back, he jumped at my back and when I told him to sit, he grabbed my leg.  I have 3 teeth marked black and blue bruises on my leg, and there was definately some force behind it.
He gets 3 walks a day, 2 on an extending lead and 1 on a normal lead, about 45 minutes each.  We have a very large garden so play with him out there. He will let anyone go near his food or bones and this doesn't bother him at all.
I'm sorry this is so long and I know I probably have not covered all of the things you may need to know, to give advice.  I am going to ring the trainer again this afternoon. If there is anyone who has any suggestions I would really appreciate it as he is such a lovely dog in other ways, but I think this is getting really serious.
Thanks

Hi taro

Instead of picking the dog up to remove HIM from the room, why not have all people stand up and leave the room, without touching the dog?  That way he doesn't have the chance to bite you when you remove him.

I would also experiment with your "ah ah" or "OW" shout.  Some puppies respond to a high pitched shout, which is like another pup squealing, other puppies respond to a low, severe shout, which is like a dog growling.  I had a pup which only responded to the low sound.  If I tried the high sound, she thought I was playing and did it even more. 

I would also say - does he play much with other puppies?  The reason for this is that it is during puppy play that puppies teach each other how hard is hard.  If 2 puppies are playing and one playbites the other one too hard, that pup will squeal and run away and not want to play any more.  That's not very nice for the first pup, who wants to keep on playing.  So the pup learns "IF I want to keep on playing, I can't bite that hard", and this is the beginning of bite inhibition.  Bite inhibition is also what we are trying to teach the pup when we shout "ow", but obviously we're not dogs and we can't teach it as effectively as another pup could.  So - does your pup play with other puppies and how does that go, if he does?  If he doesn't, you might want to think about arranging a few play sessions with friendly pups, and making sure the play stays equal (both pups taking turns to chase each other, not just one pup always doing the chasing).

Here is a link:  http://www.jersey.net/~mountaindog/berner1/bitestop.htm

Hi onetwothree, thanks for the reply.  He does play with other pups a fair bit.  Both out on a walk and at training classes.  He is really good playing with others and in fact tends to be more on the submissive side if anything. He is really gentle with small pups and small dogs. He also loves people (too much).  He will try to jump and will nibble at their hands.  Although I warn anyone to ignore him if he does this it is getting to the stage where I am worried about him saying hello to people as even a nibble is unacceptable from a dog his size.
We have tried leaving the room and have all ended up standing outside the door.  I tried to puppy proof the room as much as possible, but he will start trying to chew the leather sofa, and much as I love him, I can't bring myself to let him chew through the settee. Also he will bite from behind as you leave.
I've read the link before and it made a lot of sense.  Unfortunately ignoring him is sometimes impossible. When he calmps onto you it is starting to really hurt.
I was just at the vets for a monthly puppy check ( they do this free to get them used to being handled)  He tried to nibble at the nurse's hand and she told him no, so he tried to grab at her hand.

Perhaps when you are out and about and are worried about him nibbling at people's hands, some kind of head collar would be a good idea.  This will give you complete control of his head and where it is, and also of whether his mouth is allowed to open or not (when the lead is tight it prevents the mouth opening).

My preference is for the Gencom: http://www.gencon-allin1.co.uk/

I think you need to make it clear that it is his behaviour which is causing you all to leave him.  I would really yell "OW" when he nipped me (even if it didn't hurt that much), so that he was a bit shocked by my yell, and use that moment of shock to make a calm but fast exit.  It needs to happen every single time he does it and by everyone in the family.  It's not enough if one person is doing it and someone else is saying "Oh you silly boy, what are you doing, nipping me?" and continuing to play with him - that is undoing all the hard work.

You don't need to stay outside very long when this happens - wait 5-10 seconds (not long enough for him to start chewing the sofa), then go back in again.  If he nips - exactly the same thing again.  Keep doing it, even if you have to do it 50 times in one evening.  Make sure your OWs stay as "pained" as they began and don't get half-hearted.

If he is 6 months old and has played nicely with other puppies, then he should have developed good bite inhibition and you can start to discourage any uninvited contact with his teeth at all now.  The thing is - people's skin is not as tough as dog's skin and we also don't have fur.  So we have a lower tolerance for nips etc than the puppies that he plays with, and it might be this that he needs to learn.

I would agree with what onetwothree has already said - remove yourselves (slowly and calmly so as not to entice him into a game of tag ;)) and at the same time, make sure he does have plenty of opportunities to play games using his mouth with you - so big raggers, those big tyres you can get, large stuffed toys (don't get too attached to them ,because they WILL be 'killed' :( )  The bigger the better so you can keep your hands away from the sharp pointy teeth........

This bitey business can be a real nightmare! And I speak as someone who has been working consistently on nipping and mouthing (I should have known better than call him "Nipper"!) since the pup was 8 weeks old. He steadily improved but the real turnaround in behaviour came at exactly 6 months and now, at nearly 7 months, a "look" accompanied by a quiet "ah-ah" is doing the trick.

If you've been following the bite inhibition tips, I'm wondering whether your pup has reached the "extinction burst" stage when he appears to be getting much worse prior to an improvement? I'm also wondering whether he's getting enough free play with other pups because I notice you say he's walked on a lead. I'd second the good advice about giving him big "mouthy" toys to play with and keep the jaws constructively occupied and also wonder whether teething may be contributing to the problem too.

Thanks for the replys. Someone reffered to an 'extinction burst' and I'm hoping this is what is happening at the moment.  He does get off the lead to play with other pups but not as much as I would like.  It obviously needs to be in a safe place, but also because he is so big, a lot of people ( and dogs) are ok for him to say hello but don't want him to play with their dog.  I'm trying to get some names from people I meet when we are in an unsuitable place to let them off, but the dogs would obviously play well in a safe place. I'm also getting nervous that if he is off the lead he may nip at someones fingers.  Fine, if I've warned them and they are ok but if he was off the lead and saw someone before I did, he would run off to say hello.
We will keep working on this and are determined to get it sorted out, as he is a lovely dog most of the time.
Thanks again

hi taro,
what you have just described is exactly what is happening to me and my 7 month pup. i have tried absolutely EVERYTHING mentioned and he still persists in the exact way yours does! i hope your situation improves - im thinking with mine its because hes teething!??

If the puppy grabs your hand hard, instead of pulling away (which will make them grab harder for a better grip) gently push you hand towards puppy into the mouth, (Be very gentle when you do this) The aim is not to frighten or injure your puppy, but to make grabbing your hand mildly unpleasant. In fact, it may hurt you as you are pressing your hand on puppy's teeth, but should result in the puppy spitting your hand out. After a few repetitions, the puppy should stop grabbing your hand

unless he is my puppy! i have heard this works with other dogs but unfortunatly not mine!

Nothing works instantly! ;) Puppy mouthing and biting is a normal and essential part of a puppy's development - it takes some time before they learn what feeble softies we humans are, and that they need to be very gentle when mouthing us. It takes several weeks, if not months, of consistent training to achieve this. :)

we found blowing on his nose when he had a bit of a grip on made him let go. not immediately, took a couple of blows.

Please don't blow at puppies, unless you want your face bitten :(

hi i have gsd i think what you have done is let him take control and he thinks he is the pack leader you have to take it back other wise he is going to turn on you he has no respect for you as you say you have had them before so you know what they are like mine is now 12 month old and she tried the same with us we lost  our other  gsd 16 month ago  when they  go to bite you and you are playing and they bite you to hard you have to let them know when they are puppys they have no nerves in there teeth so they do not know they are hurting you i have always squeeeze there nose   to let them know they have hurt me it works for me they should know when to play and when to stop i have had them for 30 years and they are all different they are as you know  they are very highly intelligent you will have to go back to basics with him hope everthing goes ok could you let us know how you go on  yours Ann emjip2000

With respect, all this "pack leader" business is very outdated and I certainly wouldn't want the OP frightened into thinking that this very natural stage of puppyhood will result in her dog turning on her! Some dogs take longer to learn bite inhibition than others but "taking control" isn't part of the equation, IMHO.

you are quite wrong i have see this first hand with somebody else and you ask any good trainer and they will tell you the same a dog that bites her legs like that is not playing this a german sheperd we are talking  about  about a pack dog and you have to be in control you dont have to be cruel just firm

Sorry, I think many of us here would like to consider ourselves "good trainers" and if you asked us, we would say you are wrong and that the pack theory is outdated.  Dogs have hierarchies within their own species and between dogs that live together, but that hierarchy does not extend to humans and to a human pack.

Obviously you haven't even bothered to read the link I posted :(

you are quite wrong i have see this first hand with somebody else and you ask any good trainer and they will tell you the same a dog that bites her legs like that is not playing this a german sheperd we are talking  about  about a pack dog and you have to be in control you dont have to be cruel just firm

wow so GSDs are different as puppies to all other dogs & the ones I have had have been atypical :rolleyes:

Are GSDs pack dogs then & have to be dominated before they take over ?

I suggest with respect that you rethink your obviously very set in the 1970s ideas on dog training. There's a BC X lab at our training club that grabs it's owns legs He has no respect for this owner because she has never educated him at all. She thinks it is funny & no amoiunt of advice will pursuade her otherwise sadly. He's not a dominant dog nor is he aggressive, he has just never stopped being a puppy at the biting stage !

There is control & control & any training that involves pain & cruelty(yes squeezing a dogs nose is cruelty)is simply wrong

I don't care if people clicker, titbit, toy etc train their dogs but there must be no pain to the dog. Using your method is a recipe for disaster eventually & a dog that will relatiate Not necessarily towards you or another human possibly another dog that touches it.

GSDs are not stupid & do not need to be hurt to learn bite inhibition.

well you are very wrong i love my dogs and they do anthing for me out of love all dogs are a pack animal and in the 2006 they are book out about it and there is  one on the tv at the moment you should watch it you might learn something 

Not the one by the "world"famous TV behaviourist VS ? Who before the TV series was unknown in this country  nor anywhere els out side of New York, for that matter

What does this wondrous program/book have for me to learn from ? how to inflinch pain ? That dogs set out to dominate the world & their owners ? If it's the one a friend has reviewed for the press it was just the usual mishmash of old ideas & of course Castration solves everything & al;l dogs should be castrated

Does the book adovate squeezing dogs noses then ? Or Air Horns Or Pan lids ?

I've got a 9 month old puppy who was with his mum until he was 3 months old & he has never offered to bite or nip, because his mother taught him bite inhibition so he has never tried it on humans.He's not a dominant dog & I do not need to dominate him by physical puniushment

However I'm off to sqeeze my puppy's nose to show him who is boss(NOT)

My father loved his dogs, and his children, but because he didn't know any better, he would beat both his dogs and children when they didn't do what he wanted.  A good leader, human or dog, won't resort to physcial harm but controls things through gaining respect.

I certainly would not suggest anyone squeeze their puppy's nose.  This is cruel and unnecessary.

Dogs don't want to "take control" or become "pack leader" over humans.

http://www.clickersolutions.com/articles/2004/Debunking.pdf

and they bite you to hard you have to let them know when they are puppys they have no nerves in there teeth so they do not know they are hurting you i have always squeeeze there nose   to let them know they have hurt me it works for me they should know when to play and when to stop i have had them for 30 years

Er no nerves in their teeth ? Squeezing their noses ?

I've only had GSDs since 1958 & all mine have had nerves in their teeth & I've never had to resort to cruelty to  stop a puppy mouthing me

The biting/nipping is all part of a pupy's learning & if you watch an adult dog with a young puppy when the nipping etc gets too much they grump & walk away ignoring the puppy. Sometimes they will pin a puppy to the ground or hold it's muzzle with their mouths(but never their paws round the mouth which would be the equilivalent of a human holding a puppy's muzzle in their hands BTW)& as humans we cannot do this method, so the moving away & ignoring would be the way i would go plus rewarding when the behaviour stops

And although you should work on bite inhibition from day one, the real changes seem to come when the pup is slightly past the stage where everything in life is over-exciting. Thus I saw quite drastic improvements when mine was old enough to concentrate on what he was being invited to do - in this case "no biting!"  - and had stopped perceiving everything as a marvellous game.

it not cruel

You can say it's not cruel as much as you like - but at worst it IS cruel, and at best it is ineffective and possibly asking for a dog to attack, it MAY stop biting, but will also fear any move towards its muzzle, maybe when it actually needs veterinary treatment, and this opens up a whole new set of problems - far better IMHO to use a technique which doesn't lead to the potential for other problems further down the line.

they are there milk teeth and can not feel how hard they bite and it is not cruel would you let  a child kick you so tell me why do dogs attack and bite ppl

A child is not a dog.

But, humouring this lack of logic: If a child kicked me, I would not kick the child back.  I would not hit the child.  I would not even yell at the child.  Children, like dogs, do a lot of things for attention and the best way to "punish" them is to ignore them.

Dogs attack people and bite them for many reasons - but hardly ever because they bit people too hard when they were puppies.  :(  Biting people when they are puppies AND the person not dealing with this in the right way CAN lead to a lack of Bite Inhibition developing, which in turn means that when a dog bites, it bites too hard and causes injury. 

HOWEVER, the correct way to deal with a puppy biting is to shout Ow when it is too hard and to walk away.  It is not to prevent all puppy mouthing, which is what you are suggesting by squeezing their noses.  What you are suggesting would prevent any mouthing at all, which would in turn lead to Bite Inhibition not being acquired and in turn, to a dog which does injury as an adult when/if it is provoked to attack.

i am not suggesting you hit the child but the chid has to know it is wrong in the same way a dog does and this dog is not just mouthing as you put because it has grab her leg  it does not stop the mouthing all to gether it just lets the dog know it as  hurt you you dont do it to hard  and as she says nothing else is working my dog comes and mouths me and plays wih me

Great, so I guess we should all put leads and collars on our children and then give them some blankets to sleep in the shed at night???

Sorry but kids are not dogs and you cannot have a valid analogy when comparing the two on any subject.

Sorry but there are a lot of experienced dog owners and trainers on this board and none of them have ever squeezed their puppies' noses to tell them not to bite - and yet we still have dogs which are well socialised and not aggressive to humans - despite not taking on your, er, "advice".

Milk teeth have nerves, just as adult teeth do. Did you never get toothache as a child?

Bite inhibition has nothing to do with nerves in teeth; it involves teaching the dog to use less effort in closing its jaws ...

Milk teeth are still rooted in the jaw, and any pressure excerted can be felt back through the jaw - how else do you think a pup leans bite inhibition when left with its dam and litter mates???

Using your hands or any other part of your body to hurt or irritate a dog (squeezing noses, blowing in faces etc.) is teaching your dog nothing except that humans are to be avoided and you may even need to defend yourself from them. I wouldn't want to be that dogs vet either and it's not something I'd want my dog to learn :(

>you are quite wrong i have see this first hand with somebody else and you ask any good trainer and they will tell you the same a dog that bites her legs like that is not playing this a german sheperd we are talking  about  about a pack dog and you have to be in control you dont have to be cruel just firm

We all have different ways of training but I'm sorry, I simply won't buy into the pack leader theory. It has been thoroughly debunked (a link already posted in this respect) since apart from anything else, dogs don't view humans as part of a pack in any case.  And while it is important for your dog to know what you expect from it - I've got a JRT who are noted for their "independence" - there is a difference between consistent training and the sort of "firm" training that involves pain. Especially if the result is aimed at producing a dog who obeys through fear rather than through respect and trust.

When you say "squeeze their nose" do you actually mean that (the 'nose' being the soft bit at the end, where the nostrils are!), or simply hold the dog's muzzle? One is much more likely to be effective than the other.

Hi Taro

Rather than removing your dog from the room you could try removing yourself from the room, this is what my GSD bitch does to any puppies we have when she has had enough of them nipping & biting at her. She is far more tolerant than I would be ;) but the puppies soon learn. She never yelps BTW but has a deepish warrning grumpy growl similar to a human saying "gerroff"gruffly. When she does play she makes more noise than the puppy & I have found yelping by a human can encourage a vocal breed like a GSD rather than stop the behaviour

I would also try some constructive play, such as a simple retrieve with two or more toys & don't play tuggy.just yet.. When one toy is returned thrown another & if any mouthing occars stop & walk away

Some GSDs can be very physical in play & no matter what others say on here it is not aggression or nastiness but a normal if a bit OTT puppy behaviour. One of my last Male GSDs loved to mouth my hand & even when he was older he would take hold of my hand to get my attention, but only ever gently when he was an adult. He did protection work as an adult BTW so obviously knew when to bite hard & when not to

I teach my puppies to touch my hand with their nose & then treat them This is for an obedience exercise but it also works to get their attention.  You could try it but use a closed fist with a treat inside palm downwards so that your knuckles face the dog. I wouldn't encourage really rough play either. Try stretching your dogs mind by throwing a toy out of sight so she has to find it

Hi, Thanks for all of the reply's.  I have tried most of the methods described, leaving the room, taking Logan out of the room, turning my back etc.  Each method was given plenty of time to work, but didn't.  I think that at the end of the day, he just gets so... excited he just can't help himself.  Also by now I think it is as my trainer says and is a lerned behaviour.  We are still working VERY hard to get him out of this.  AT the moment, the instances of biting in the house have drastically decreased, and if he bites we take him very calmly to the utility room.  Originally the trainer said to leave him for 20 seconds or so, but as soon as he came out he would start again.  We are now leaving him for 5 -10 minutes and I thinks this is giving him the time needed to calm down.  Fingers crossed.
My main problem at the moment is him biting me when we are out walking. When he does this I usually get him to sit and turn my back for a few seconds and this seemed to work for a while.  However 2 weeks ago when I told him to sit and turned my back, he kept jumping and biting at my back.  I just turned away and ignored him (very hard to do).  Next thing I knew he had clamped my leg. I'm afraid it was so sore I couldn't just ignore it and grabbed him by the collar till he calmed down.  I had 3  black and blue teeth size bruises on my leg afterwards, so it was quite a hard bite. I knew he couldn't be allowed to escalate like this so the next time he started trying to grab my hand on a walk, I calmly went to a bench (in the park with no one around), and fastened his lead to the bench and stepped out of reach. It took 20 minutes of waiting and going back to him before he calmed down.  When he did I asked him to walk to heel which he did beautifully.  After 10 yards or so I clicked and gave him a treat for walking so nicely.  He took the treat, took one step away and looked at me, and then grabbed my hand again.  Back to the bench and 35 minutes later before he had calmed down enough to walk nicely back to the car.  So this is the stage we are at, at the moment. Still walking near handy benches but taking less time to calm down.
Reading this he sounds like an awful dog, but I do think the trainer is right in so much as it is inappropriate play behaviour and until it is completely sorted I wouldn't put him in a position to do this to anyone else.
I really do appreciate all of the reply's.  I think I was after some reasurance that this will get better.  It just shows how complicated all dogs are, and what works for one won't work for another.  We WILL get this sorted though as underneath all those teeth is a lovely dog, even if that's not what I call him sometimes.

TBH honest he doesn't sound like a bad dog & you don't sound like a bad owner either Ypou have a puppy who hasn't yet learnt bite inhibition

Can I just ask one question does the trainer have GSDs ? There is a good reason for me asking BTW

I wouldn't take him from the room as this is actually rewarding him as you are giving him contact after the behaviour. You leaving him & going out of the room doesn't reward him at all. A bit like when the Super Nanny on TV has the parents outside the room holding the door shut when the kids are being naughty at night, not quite the same as kids can reason but dogs cannot The result is the same eventually

Dies he carry toys at all ? you could try a "bite"bar for him whilst you are out. All they are a roll of hessian glued together about the size of a rolled up tabloid newspaper & when he goes to get hold of your hand give him that instead(lol hope you didn't think I was going to say hit him with it ;) ) They are actually used in Schutzhund training but because they allow the teeth to go into the material they can be better than harder toys & definitely better than sqeaky toys :D

Hi Moonmaiden,
The trainer doesn't have GSD"S.  I decided to take him to a puppy class that would have all sizes of pups in it and not just big ones like him.  He is fantastic with other dogs and puppy's.  He plays rough and tumble with pups that like that, but with small ones or timid ones he is very gentle and will often lie down and gently touch them with his paw.  The trainer is a member of APDT and is actually on the COAPE web site for behaviour referals form vets.  I do like her and she does seem very knowledgable. But I do understand what you are saying about someone with GSD experience.

I have tried taking a rubber ring out with me that he plays fetch with.  I know it's not the same thing as you described but when he gets 'hyper' as I put it, he just ignores that and tries to grab your hand.
Everyone he meets thinks he is lovely because he is so friendly with both people and dogs, but he will sometimes try to nibble peoples hands ( not grab), so I make a point of telling people he might do that before they approach him and asking them to step back and ignoring him if he does.  My idea was that we would stop the play biting totally with us and then I would concentrate working on a calm way of meeting people outside.  At the moment he thinks everyone should see him and gets really excited, so much that I really need him to stop him from grabbing us and then I will do a lot of work on  greeting people outside.
We did try leaving the room and try to be as calm and low key as possible.  However even in 15 seconds he could rip the leather suit ( which he does try to do already).  No matter how calm you are when leaving the room he still starts running round the room like a mad hatter, trying to bite anything he can.

I think when the dog does bite, first of all you need to use a marker, because it may take a few moments to gethim out the room esp. if he is still in playful mode :)

I would use a sharpish  "ahah" and then calmly take him out. What may need to be looked at is how you take him out, whether you use the lead or collar, do you talk to him, (as you should not)  and what he does. A very useful thing to know is "3 strikes and you're out" which I've used to help a Swedish friend of mine who has a young adult high drive GSd who was doing very similar things. You use the marker, take him out calmly and wait for up to 3 minutes, then back in. Same again if he does it again, then the 3rd time he is out for up to 20 minutes or so. This gives calminng down time for dog and owner and goes some way to repairing a relationship which can become rather stressed :)

Peeps do vary in their views as to whether dog or human goes out, I have had best success with a mix of both :P but personally i feel both have their merits.

I think there is a wealth of help here, I agree you do need to be firm but this is done through being consistent and fair and hopefully effective too in the training :)
I also think often other aspects need looking at, eg general relationship and training, as one cannot work without the other being assessed also I feel.

Your own body language can send the wrong signals, also inappropriate/confusing training which can lead to frustration on the dog's part :) (not saying this is happening, but it can add to the problem so may be worth checking out).

Diet intolerances also need to be checked out, as they can play a part, don't feed him Bakers <g>

Good luck
Lindsay
x

Good advice re the three strikes Lindsay I was trying to remember what we did when we got a partly trained failed forces dog in rescue that had been returned to it's original owner(failed in that he had been taught to bite first with little control :( by the Army Poor dog didn't know what was expected of him), & we did something similar

You would need to get him to play retrieve & make it worth his while treat/reward wise & the beauty of the bite bar is you can make it interesting by"flavouring"it

Ditto the training My training is daily but very low key when young so the dog doesn't even realise it is being trained ;)

No problem with mixed breed training in fact i prefer it, but some breeds have different idiosyncrasies & depending on your dogs breeding he may be quite high drive bred & need more intensive training daily to stretch the mind & build the control; needed

We did have a que word for him but after a while, he would get even more worked up when he heard the word.  We sectioned off a part of the garden for him as he definately wanted to dig.
I do lots of short training sessions with him and try to keep it fun.
This week at training class we were teaching them to touch the back of your hand when you say touch.  I was a bit wary of doing this because of his biting and asked the trainer.  She said to do it, BUT if his mouth went to take hold of my hand or touched it with teeth at all, then not to say anything but obviously don't click and treat and just put the target hand behind my back and then present it again, asking him to touch.  He loves doing this, and I think it might actually be getting through that if I can see his teeth at all, then he doesn't get the reward. I can't wait to learn what this leads on to at next weeks class, as I have never done this type of training before.
Out in the garden he can get very exited and mouthy.  I've just been out with him playing fetch the hoop and Touch and he was great.  Not a tooth in sight.  I finished off by hiding some treats in his digging pit.
I suppose it is hard because I am not a trainer and while I try my best and don't think I am a complete novice, I have to remind myself that he is still young and I will just have to work harder to get him to understand what is expected and acceptable from him.
We'll get ther in the end.

Hello Taro,

I was told when teaching my dog to touch my hand that if she was doing it too hard in her enthusiasm, to click just before the contact is actually made.  It means being super quick with the clicker but the next time the dog shouldn't come at you so hard.

If the dog then starts being too sloppy over the contact, you can correct it by leaving the click later.  I'm talking fractions of seconds but it worked for me and I was told it helps to teach the dog self-control.  :-)