I have a 5 month old Doberman bitch. I taught her to sit using a treat and a hand signal, ahe will always sit when she sees me do the handsignal even if I don't have a treat, but won't sit on voice command alone.

I got chewed out by the obedience trainer for this at our last lesson, he really tore into me for using the handsignal, saying that if the dog doesn't look at me, she won't follow the command, which is true. The problem is, he tells me not to use the treat or hand signal any more. I have a hard time figuring out how else to get her to sit with just saying "sit"?

The next lesson is tomorrow and I dread it already, help!

Katie

Firstly I would change your trainer if he lays into you without showing you how to do it, escpecially as she is such a young age.

Go back to basics..........before you lure her with the treat and hand signal, give the command of sit.  Follow the command immediately with the lure (hand signal) and treat.

This way you are getting her to anticipate the sit with the command before you give the treat.  She should soon catch on and do it as soon as the command is given.

If she is not looking at you I would guess you are not holding the treat in the correct position, try holding it in front of your face so she looks up at you.

Thank you Sandra. The trainer wants her to sit on my voice command when she is for example 10 feet away from me, etc. Last lesson we were practicing the heel. She was supposed to sit on my left side, before I gave the heel command, then follow me as I step out. The problem was that I only could get her to sit if I caught her attention (by making a "tsk" with my mouth), then she looked up at me, and I said sit and make the hand signal and she sat. The trainer told me it was all wrong!

He wants that she obeys the voice command even when I stand beside her, facing the field, without any eye contact with her. She's not trained to do this, so of course, she wouldn't sit in such a situation. The trainer then took her from me and showed me how it's done: he stood with her at his side and shouted "sit". She did, of course, nothing, just looked around. So then he bent down a bit, yanked at her collar with the leash really hard, and yelled SIT!!! Poor dog looked up at him and sat, but I don't think she sat because she obeyed him, she sat because she was confused and it was natural for her to sit when she looked up (???).

Then the trainer walked the course with her and every time she would pull on the lead, he yanked hard at the leash and yelled at her. I can't bring myself to do this :(

Katie

Leave that trainer.

Many people who work their dogs (gundogs in the field, for example) use hand signals as well as verbal commands. Unless you plan to do competition obedience there's no reason to be so picky, and there's never a reason to bully a dog, especially a young puppy, like this.

Thank you Jeangenie. The trainer came highly recommended, but the way he treats us (the customers) is just appalling, he is very abrasive and it's always "my way or the highway".

Katie

Katie, I really would change your trainer.

Firstly, no trainer should take a dog off someone and demonstrate aversive methods without first telling the owner exactly what they are going to do, and why they feel it is necessary, and asking permission of the owner.

Second, I'd advise you not to go to a trainer who treats dogs in this way.  As you say, she didn't sit because she understood what he wanted - she sat because it was her "default" behaviour and she was confused so just did the first thing that came into her head.

Third, teaching a dog to heel by repeatedly yanking on the lead when it doesn't know what it should be doing instead, is cruel. 

It sounds like this trainer has unrealistic expectations of what your dog should be able to do, and is punishing both you (verbally) and the dog for not having reached this level yet - when you haven't been shown how to and have never done it before.

I suspect you know all this anyway, which is why you're posting on here - you just want some encouragement that your thoughts are right - well, they are :)

Where do you live?  Someone on here might be able to recommend a better trainer in your area?

The way to teach the dog the verbal sit command, if it already knows the hand signal, is as sandrah says above: 

Say "Sit">Give hand signal>Dog sits>Give treat

Do this over and over again, repeatedly.  Then try to delay the hand signal a bit, so you wait one-two seconds after saying Sit and before giving the hand signal.  That gives the dog time to think "Oh, what's the next bit?".  Soon you'll find she will sit in anticipation of the hand signal, without you giving it. 

Thank you 1-2-3, this is so easy! Finally someone who doesn't yell at me that I am screwing my dog for life! I will follow this advice and I am sure my doggy will get it soon, she is very smart.

I spoke with my husband about it, he met the trainer a couple of times himself, and agrees that he is "a macho", and probably not a good fit with me (and our Dobe). He himself has a Doberman bitch, go figure!

He's been also pressing me into having my bitch's natural tail docked. He even went as far as to tell me that Doberman doesn't NEED a tail, and that it serves no purpose. I told him I think the tail is a useful indicator of her feelings, and he dismissed it completely. At least lesson he even suggested that her tail is BROKEN, and urged me to have it cut off asap. I told him her tail is not broken, and he insisted that it looked odd and surely she broke it when she wagged her tail and hit the wall at home (yes, she sometimes "knocks" on the wall with she wags her tail, but I can't believe it would be hard enough to break a bone).

All in all, I am pretty fed up, after each lesson I leave with my self esteem in shreds :(

Katie

Oh Katie that is terrible.  I am pro docking, but only of 2 day old puppies.  I would never suggest anyone to dock an adult dog's tail unless it was suffering (the tail was damaged or caused the  dog pain).  I'm sure you would know if your dog's tail was causing her pain, and if it's not, there is no problem that she has it.

Where roughly do you live?  I have a list of quite a few positive reinforcement trainers bookmarked on my computer, that either I have experience of, or good friends have recommended to me.  I would be happy to give you links to their websites, if there are any in your area, so let me know where to look.

Unfortunately, I am not in the UK, I live in Luxembourg. I looked up some other dog schools in the telephone directory, one advertises positive methods, so I will check them out. I want obedience classes to be fun for me and my baby girl :)

Docking tails is banned in Luxembourg (and most of continental EU), so what he's suggesting me is even illegal. I also want to show her so she wouldn't be allowed in the ring with a docked tail.

I entered her for her first show in the puppy class in March here in Luxembourg. :)

Katie

Katie, can you buy a "clicker"?  You can get them in most pet shops, so have a look.  They are not very expensive, only about 50p (in the UK!).

Once you've got one, there is lots of help about training various things online:

http://www.clickertraining.com/training/clicker_basics/index.htm?loaditem=what_is_ct

http://www.clickersolutions.com/articles/index.htm

Good luck at your first show with her!

I already have a clicker, I bought it on eBay UK about a week ago, but haven't started "clicking" yet, thank you for the links :)

Katie

> So then he bent down a bit, yanked at her collar with the leash really hard, and yelled SIT!!!

I thought that kind of training went out with the ark! There's no way I'd permit any trainer to do that to one of my dogs. She's only a baby at 5 months and I'd expect to still have to be handing out treats and doing hand signals for a while. As she gets older and more familiar with the commands, both can gradually be phased out.

Have you tried pretending to have a treat occasionally rather than actualy having one, so you keep her guessing. Obviously, have a treat more often than not at this stage. That way you can phase the treats out over a period of time.

> He's been also pressing me into having my bitch's natural tail docked. He even went as far as to tell me that Doberman doesn't NEED a tail, and that it serves no purpose. I told him I think the tail is a useful indicator of her feelings, and he dismissed it completely. At least lesson he even suggested that her tail is BROKEN, and urged me to have it cut off asap.

This trainer is not only a moron, but he's bullying you and your dog. You'd be better off not going to a training class at all than one with a trainer like that.

Thank you Phoebe. This is my first dog, so he treats me like I know nothing about her (well, yes, I am a novice, I admit). He says a Doberman needs a challenge.

Katie

Well, my puppy almost 9 months has been sitting since 9 weeks old using the hand command..and verbally.  Our trainer always trains using the hand command, (saying sit at the same time to begin with)even if my puppy is at the very bottom of our garden I can just raise my hand and he will sit automatically. Or if say sit.    The same with the down position, a different hand signal but it works every time.  Did start off with treats the first few times but doesnt have them anymore.  I would find it difficult to train without the hand signal, the only other alternative is to gently put him into the sit position whilst using the command.  Wish I could be nmore helpful.

Thank you Kizzy, she always sits when I use the hand signal. She will also go to "down" when I use the handsignal there (hand to the floor), which of course the trainer thinks is all wrong, too, because I should be able to yell "down" from across the street at her and she should drop down immediately. We are nowhere near this level of obedience, having started the weekly classes barely 2 months ago.
Katie

If it's "his way or the highway" then I'd be hitting that highway pronto, katie! Only you are never going to have a productive training relationship with someone whose methods you feel so uncomfortable with. As indeed I would! Training is all about learning but at the same time it should be enjoyable and result in both you and your dog having a trusting and mutual bond. Right now it looks like you are going to get a very distressed dog who simply gets more confused about what is wanted from her and this is a recipe for disaster.

It's easy to feel very demoralised when you read about other people's dogs who appear to behave impeccably and instantly obey commands from half a mile away but the reality is that most of us are constantly working on getting the basics across and recognise that even these don't arrive overnight.

I think I have already made quite a bit of progress with her, we taught her not to bite, she is pretty much housetrained, she waits for her meal to be prepared patiently without jumping or begging, she is brilliant with our 4 year old son, etc. I think she's a great dog! :)

Katie

Change your trainer Katie before he really messes you and the dog up. 

Training should be fun for both of you and to expect a five month old pup to obey commands at a distance is out of order.  You both need to be relaxed with your training and at this stage you should be building confidence and trust with your puppy.

Just to say I agree w ith everyone else - he sounds like the trainer from hell. You say you're going to check out another trainer - it's always a good idea to go along to a session without your dog & get the feel for the methods used. You're right - training should be fun for you & your dog. Good Luck

Change your trainer asap, he sounds appalling! There's got to be some better ones out there somewhere. Our club is very big on hand signals, in fact they like to teach us to use hand signals only without a voice command at all, once the dog is fairly advanced in the classes. Better to buy a few training books and do it at home and with the help of this forum than to go back there. And as for forcing you to illegally dock a grown dog for no reason....!

leave leave leave leave leave!!!

if she is ever "not" looking at you & you need her to sit,just say her name,she will look,then give signal! bingo!

Just going to agree with everyone else - he's bad news.  I know from personal experience and mistakes that heavy-handed training like his is the worst way to train a dobe - they are very sensitive dogs, and violence like this mook is using will only alienate her from you and make her disobedient and unwilling to even give you the time of day.  Been there, done that - it just isn't worth it, it causes far more problems than there are to begin with.

Good luck with her, I hope one day in the future you run into this guy with your beautifully behaved dobergirl and show him how it should be done :D

Change your "trainer".

If your trainer was at all constructive he would demonstrate how to move from hand signals to verbal cues.

It is simple.

When using luring to obtain a behaviour such as a sit, food is traditionally used, often in a "crane hand", after only 3 repetitions you can use the same shape hand without the food, but of course giving the food from the other hand when the bum is on the floor.  You can then change the shape of the hand to a hand signal and then when you want to introduce a verbal cue just use the "word" wait a second and then use the hand signal.  After a few behaviours the dog will anticipate the hand signal and will sit on the verbal cue, then you can fade the hand signal.

To proof and generalise the verbal cue, throw food away from you in all directions so that the dog will become the "Martini" dog, any time, any place, anywhere........

The fact that the trainer cannot demonstrate or explain the steps needed to achieve this end reveals his incompetency as a trainer of dogs, let alone people!

This is outwith his need to feel superior at your expense by belittling both you and your dog.

Violence begins where knowledge ends, those people who rely on force to achieve their goals do not have the requisite skills, knowledge or experience to deal with dogs effectively.

Thank you very much! :)

I will definitely switch trainers.

Katie