My bitch is now on day 19 of mating.  We have tried to mate her on days 12, 14 and 18, as we had her ovaries scanned on day 14, scanner said not ready until day 18.  We took her to our breeders on day 17 ( to test see if she would stand) and she did stand eventually for a different dog (of different breed), but only after flirting around with a bitch.  Looking at her now her vulva has shrunk down and she has a straw coloured discharge.  I was going to go to the stud again tomorrow, but really i think it is a waste of time. 
Each time she went to the stud she was happy to be flirted with, licked to death but as soon as he put a paw on her she would growl or move away.  Josie is our only pet, and it has been suggested that she is too humanised! and that is why she wouldn't be mated.   Could this be true?  We live in the country, she sees certain dogs every week, bitches, and is very happy to see other dogs that we meet out and about, but doesn't have every day contact with other dogs.  Has anyone else had this problem?

The vulva softening and the discharge becoming straw-coloured is usually a sign that she's about ready. ;)

Edit: is the stud experienced?

my bitch was well up for it but still had to be muzzled for the actual mating and held or she would just run off. she hated the tie also and we had to hold hard for 20 mins to stop her trying to run, she had 8 pups. i would take her again and hold her firmly, some bitches never stand willingly!

No, our first choice stud, is not experienced, first time same as our bitch.  I know not a good combination!  The last two matings we did try her with the stud owners other stud dog aswell, he's sired 3 or 4 litters, but she was just the same, not intrested.  Although the more experienced stud was more domiante.  Her vulva is soft, but has also shrunk down, she also doesn't seem to be sticking it out as much, if I look at her from behind.  Is it worth another try?

Certainly worth a try. My last litter was a result of matings on days 18 and 20. I'd give her a and the stud a few minutes to flirt then hold the bitch firmly, holding her collar on both sides, so that she doesn't put the dog off. They'll both need holding during the tie so that neither hurts the other. :)

My elder bitch was not too happy being mated - she was obviously well ready and stood until the stud tried to mount, but just didnt like a dog on her back - she is a bit dominant, so it could be the same with yours.

The stud owner doesn't want me to hold her unless Josie stands for the dog.  She has said i should only hold her if she stands with out growling.  As soon as the dog puts a paw on her she has growled.  I've asked if I should hold her a few times when he's looking ready to mount and she's said no.

Holding the bitch is perfectly conventional. How strange that the stud owner does things differently. Maiden bitches are generally nervous and often growl, even when willing. It's very odd that they're willing to risk their maiden dog being put off, possibly for life. How long have they been breeding?

If I hadnt have held my girl we would not have got a mating. A lot of them dont like the dogs mounting them - it makes them feel very vulnerable

I wouldn't allow my dog to mate a bitch which wasn't being held. Nor would I not hold my own bitch. There's too much opportunity for them both to get injured.

Ditto, JG - it concerns me that the studs owner is running this risk

About 10 years, this is her third stud dog.  My breed is a bit loopy!  On the first meeting they were both on a lead, the stud came bounding over very excited paws eveywhere.  Josie was not impressed at all and quite scared!  The next two attempt were outside as the weather was nice, josie off the lead, as she was much more relaxed and the stud on the lead.  Josie was much happier.  If we do go down tomorrow, which I think i will, it's supposed to rain so we will be in the house.  Maybe I should suggest to put her back on the lead?

She will need to be held by the collar, not the lead.

My routine (which I was taught in the mid-70s by my mentor, who'd been breeding for over 40 years) is to start with the bitch loose and the dog on a lead. They can sniff and flirt, and the bitch gets confidence because she can dart away. When she's looking a bit more relaxed, and the dog's showing serious interest that she's ready, the bitch goes on the lead and has her collar firmly held, and the dog let loose. The bitch owner holds the bitch and the stud owner's in charge of making sure the dog hits the spot, getting tails out of the way, preventing the bitch from sitting, etc, and will help manoeuvre the turn, if needed. Then both are held to stop them trying to sit or move too far until the tie naturally breaks, which can be over an hour. This is when you often find that your previously prim little miss has turned into a tart, as she fawns over the dog!

Thank you all for your replies, they have helped.  I'm going to go down again tomorrow and keep my fingers crossed!

Good luck! :)

Take her for a good run and wear her out a bit also.. good luck :-)

You also get a better idea of how the mating went by holding the bitch, as you can feel her "draw" during the tie.

>getting tails out of the way< what is it with tails eh LOL :-D

I have always wondered why with a breed like mine with nice tails up and over their backs when it comes to mating they drop their tails in the way

It does start to shrink a bit when she is nearer ready.

I have found this too.  They aren't receptive until the hard swelling in the perineal area has gone, and the area around the vulva feels normal again. 

I find if they have been very swollen it is when it has disipated to almost half way to normal.  I have also had bitches whose vulva's hardly swelled at all, and yet had no problem being mated.  There is definately an open and closed look about these parts regardless of size.  Some girsl sem quite big even ehwn not in season, yet obviously aren't receptive.

Ditto JG , I was thinking is the stud experienced. 

It probably isn't that uncommon even when a bitch is ready if she is a maiden bitch to be a bit strange.

Very occasionally a bitch doesn't like to be held and is only happy for the dog to mount her if she thinks she can get away if necessary.  As soon as he hits the spot, with or without help, then the owner can dive in and hold the bitch's collar.  it is certainly worth a try - I have found this several times with maiden bitches. 

On the other hand, if this isn't the case then you may just have to restrain her and let the dog do his business no matter what she wants!!  This happened to a bitch that came to one of my dogs a few years ago.  We tried for 3 days following a positive Premate, but she flew at him as soon as he came near her, so in the end we decided on desperate measures and both the owners held her really firmly so she couldn't move, and once they were tied she was putty in his hands, and had a lovely litter.  Next time she was mated she seemed to remember him and went all dewy eyed as soon as she walked in and saw him, and made it very obvious that she was keen!

Maybe it is the choice of name, as my Jozi is the first bitch I have ever had that wouldn't stand for a dog without intervention on my part.  She is very sexy but seems to think she ought to do the stud dogs part.

I had premate tests done the second time I tried her, and she was like a wriggling eel and the dog only managed to mate her by sheer luck and two handlers distracting and keeping her from sitting.

Next time I tried she wasn't havign any of it.  so on her next season I had the dog stay with us from the earliest days so that she could get to know him.

When the right time came she was leaping all over him and I did have to hold her very tight to ensure she stood to enable a mating to take place.

This time she seemed much happier about the idea but we were getting nowhere with the dog hopping on and off from day 17, and a couple of slip matings, then on the day he was going home she actually stood for him and we had a totally unexpected tie on day 20, so will have to wait and see if we get any results.

Only good thing is that she is finally getting the idea about her part in this mating lark, and if we have had no joy she should be easier to mate next time.

I would still take her again.  As she should still have fertilizeable eggs for around 4 days after ovulating.

And try to persuade the stud dog owner that it's the norm to hold the bitch for mating. I've not got much experience, but everyone tells me this, and the matings I have witnessed could not have taken trouble with the bitch being held, as in each case they yelped and tried to get away - I think my boy's a bit big and doesn't believe in foreplay!! :-D

Well that's pretty well put me off, how revolting yuk!!! My girl is going to stay a virgin I think!

Well, just spoke to the stud owner and she's suggested letting them both of the lead, have a good flirt about and then jump in and grab Josie's collar if he mounts her.  I was kind of cringing as she suggested it, after all the talk of holding collars, but we'll see.  I've just came back from a walk, josie spotted another bitch and just started whining at her!  I think she likes the girls!

The trouble with many maiden bitches is that although they're ready and keen on the idea in theory (flagging for bitches and dogs at a distance) when it comes to the crunch they lose their bottle. Once the deed's done watch them turn into trollops!

This is her problem she loves the attention of the stud and just stands and lets him lick and flirt with her, but as soon as the paw comes up, she's off.

Yep, that's 100% normal, and what I'd expect. It'll be much easier and kinder for both her and him if she's held firmly after a few minutes' flirting so the deed can be done with a minimum of fuss and stress. :)

i had a bitch that would not mate with the stud dog we had to buy a dog inthe end but even then she was not keen the dog use to come for her and she just use to sit down and her mating was right at the end about 21 days we got one litter out off her but took us ages to do it we had to just keep trying dogs are like women they have to like the dog

any girl i have mated for the first time behaves in the same way but as soon as the first mating is done she is flagging the male again and he is usually trying to get back up within a few minutes while myself and the stud owner are trying to seperate them after that mating

Just let you all know we didn't get a mating didn't even try, the stud owner had alook and said she'd gone over basically, which I kind of knew.  Anyway I've learnt quite a few things.  the ovary scanner was wrong, talked to him and he as much as admitted this!  From the other signs I think she probablty ovulated around day 15, as a guess, so if we had held her on days 14 and 18 when we tried to mate her, we may have been successful.  After talking to Josie's breeder, we are going to try again on her next season, with a different stud.  This has been more stressful and emotional (and costly) than trying for a baby!!

i know same thing when we took the bitch i rang the stud up he said bring her i said she is not ready he said bring her any way as this was our firs time we didnt know what to excpect so we went and of course she went for the dog so the owner got a buffet out and sat on it and tried to guide it in i said to my husband is that right he said i dont know any way we went at 2 clock  at we  got home at seven we took her twice more no go now a few years later and puppys later we know when they are ready and you dont have to guide them in when they are ready  most bitchs are worse then the dog  cost a lot of money but when you do get the puppys is all worth while and 15 days sounds about right  hope everthing goes ok hope you come back on and let us know your news good luck

Gosh all this sounds very unnatural and uncomfortable for the poor female who it seems has to be restrained so their owners can have puppies.If i were a breeder and my female didnt want to mate i really dont think i could >Force< her to do it :(  Dont you owners who do this feel a bit bad for your girls?

>my bitch was well up for it but still had to be muzzled for the actual mating and held or she would just run off. she hated the tie also and we had to hold hard for 20 mins to stop her trying to run, she had 8 pups.<

This post really made my heart sink,i cant say i blame them for not wanting to be pregnant and go through the pain of birth,although this is probably being a touch anthropomorphic(sp?)

Usually the bitch is willing, just nervous. I would never strap a bitch onto a board for restraint, or anything along those lines, but holding steady to reassure and prevent sudden movements hurting either of them is no worse than holding your child's hand at the dentist. :)

Yes I agree with you JG :)

Not like that person I know that sedated her bitch as she didn't want anything to do with the stud

  That's just wicked.

Yes and when I confronted her she thought it was accepted practice :rolleyes::rolleyes:

I soon put her right but not sure if she took anything in as the litter she bred was purely for £ :rolleyes:

I hear she is planning to put the bitch and the bitch she kept from the litter into whelp again :rolleyes::rolleyes:

More than a touch anthropomorphic - they have no idea that a litter is the consquence of mating (and actually, I loved being pregnant and having my baby, so that's not offputting to me!), just as they have no idea that eating too much will make them fat. ;)

I dont agree that i FORCED my bitch to mate. if you saw how my girl flirts everytime in season you wouldnt believe that we had to hold her to mate. if she had her choice she would happily stand for any of her male friends at the park. she was nervous of the stud, travelling 100 miles in the car and entering a strange and noisy kennel with 100 dogs in and then being expected to stand in a field and mate made me feel nervous too. i dont feel i forced her to mate, i simply held her and i have to say that she loved being a mum and now after a non-mated season is having such a false pregnancy that she is dripping with milk and collecting toys for puppies!!

In the past when I have had tarty willing bitches who all mated naturally needing no restraint and only their collars held for reassurance during the tie (not even that on further matings) I would have agreed with you.

My champion bitch has very high Libido and mounts and allows her female companions to mount her when she is in season.  Yet when it came to it, she was very difficult to mate. 

She would move at the critical moment (she would thrust her pelvis like the male instead of accomodate the male), or refuse to be mounted but would mount the dog instead and get very over excited. 

She would have made an excellent stud dog as you literally had to peel her off the poor male

Now this is not a bitch that is unwilling or not ready, but one that is very sexually dominant.  I am sure with a very dominant male she would have been fine, but sadly the mates I had chosen for her were either young or inexperienced.

After a second attempt at getting her mated we got one mating when she was distracted and held and had a litter.

Next time same male she woudl have none of it.

So I had her live with the boy from the time she next came in season.  She liked the idea much better but still had the problem of her reversing gender roles

So when she was obviously ready I had to hold her rear still with all my strength to stop her moving at the critical moment (I had spent two days on my knees and the poor dog had made himself quite sore from the failed attempts).  We got a top class litter.

She absolutely hates the tie though and you need to hold on like grim death to prevent her injuring herself or the dog.  She was still happy to be mated again, though still held her to make things easier for the male so he didn't wear himself out.  she would still pester him unmercifully straight after.

I was quite shocked when I found out how much "hands on" stuff there was to mating!  It's hard to believe how strong small dogs can be and they do need holding very tightly indeed.  I had one visiting bitch who even needed a towel around her collar just to protect the hands from snappy teeth!  After just a few moments, she began to relax and all was well.  That's one benefit of having help from someone with experience.

Good luck.

There is no force - just an u8nderstanding that if the bitch isnt kept under control she could try to pull away or sit down at a time that could cause damage to her or the dog.

hi i mated my bitch and she wouldnt stand at the days advized it wasnt until day 20 21 22  that she would stand and what a flirt she was i thought that i wouldnt have a bitch that would ever stand but when she was ready i knew it