Hi can anyone give me some advice on my 7month shepherd bitch, she has decided that she wants to fight everything that we meet on our walks thesse days. I think that she is starting to hit the teenage stage as she is pushing her luck in the house as well but not in an agressive manner but i am cracking down on this, i am just finding it hard when i take her out as she used to be very socialable but now she is just a pain. I do have other dogs and they are well mannered in and out but they are a different breed . She is my first gsd so it is a whole new ball game she is lovely and i think that we have let her get away with to much,at the moment i take her out on a full check chain and she will walk well without me useing it (i dont like useing them but i tried a halti last week and she chewed through it so a chain is looking a better option at the moment or is it) but if she sees or hears another dog i pull her with it, please could anyone give me sometips or if anyone has been through this could you let me know how you got through it or if you are still up against it (i have also reduced her protein intake by changing her food). regards karen

Karen

Please get rid of the choke chain.  You wonder why your dog is becoming aggressive towards other dogs, but then you write "if she sees or hears another dog i pull her with it".

Now, if every time you saw a lamp post, I yanked a metal chain around your neck, how long would it take before you started hating lamp posts?

I'm not saying the whole cause of the aggression is the choke chain, but certainly it's not helping things and is probably making her attitude towards other dogs worse.  Please do not use pain to train because you will almost always train in more problems than the one you are trying to solve and end up in a worse place than you were before.

I'm also not sure what you were trying to achieve by using it?  You say that she will walk well without you using it, so you are not using it for heelwork - I presume you are only using it to punish her aggression towards other dogs?  Sorry, but if you use aggression to punish aggression, you will only get more aggression.

I don't quite understand how she managed to chew through a halti??  A halti doesn't go in the dog's mouth and there's no way she should be able to reach any part of it to chew it.  Can you elaborate?

Where do you live?  If I were you, I would take her to training classes.  If she was previously ok with other dogs and this is a recent development, it could be partly caused by the exposure to strange dogs being so novel, and perhaps she is trying to protect you from them.  (This is just a hypothesis and could well be wrong because I can't see her and don't have much to go on.)  If you took her to training classes, she should get used to working and concentrating on you when other dogs are around.  Please see www.apdt.co.uk for a list of trainers that use reward-based methods in your area. 

My BSD chewed up her halti, by getting the loop in her mouth while it was slack, another reason I prefer the gentle leader where the clip adjusts under the chin leaving the loop behind the lips (of course BSDs have a very split mouth).

> She is my first gsd so it is a whole new ball game<

Are you sure is is being aggressive ? GSDs are a very very vocal breed & will bark at other dogs to get them to play & this is what most people think is aggression. I have lost count of the number of people who having never had a GSD before that are not aware of this.Training classes are the way to go depending on where you live you might have a branch of the BAGSD(British Association for GSD) near you & failing that there are lots of good all breeds clubs around. She will be able to mix with dogs in a controlled environs there & learn that barking etc at strange dogs doesn't illicit play from them & therefore curb the behaviour. My 10 year old GSD often barks at my other dogs if they are ignoring her to get them to play with her.

I too would ditch the choker, I've had GSDs for nearly 50(in two years time it will be 50) years & stopped using chokers over 45 years ago.If you are yanking on the chain everytime she/she sees a dog you can be reinforcing the very behaviour you don't want.

A half check is a better option that a choker as correctly fitted it will not strangle her the way a choker does & you still have the rattle of the chain part as a training aid.

Hi i would like to thankyou both for your reply, i do take her to a gsd club and when we are there she is as good as gold. I woud say that it is agression as her heckels stand up on her neck and she is showing her teeth i will take your advice and loose the choker as i dont like it at all,but some trainers that i spoke to told me that a choke chain is the way to go ,so you can imagine the confusion that i am in . I was thinking of going back to puppy socialization but i know that they use choke chains there too i do have a half check chain and i also went and got a new halti this afternoon . I can not understand why she is good at club and is nautghy when out for a walk .This afternoon while out there was a man jogging and she just wanted to get after him but that was exitment and she does not see many joggers so i can understand why she did that so what should i have done in that situation ? I not sure how on earth she managed to chew through the halti it took me by suprise as i put it on her when she got out the boot of the car and a spaniel who lives next door but one to us was chasing back and to across the front of the hedge in her veiw and then she just lunged foward teeth showing and the halti was in two .I am very greatfull for any advice as i love her very much and i would like to  sort it out so i can take her on our holiday with our other dogs.( she had started to go at other dogs before she was introduced to the choke chain) many thans both karen

Hi there, it sounds as if your club is maybe a tad behind the times, :P
It's possible too that if this is the main club you have been to, she has got used to other GSDs, the particular dogs in that club etc and this is not perhaps "generalising" to other dogs. She may feel comfortable there, and be out of her comfort zone when elsewhere when she meets other dogs.

Try www.apdt.co.uk for a different club in your area. You may find one who for example, does social walks or a trainer who will come on awalk with you to see exactly what is happening :)

Good luck
Lindsay
x

Don't forget that you need to have a collar & a halti on her with either a double lead or a halti link so that if the halti fails to still have her on a lead & controllable

If she doesn't see many "other"breeds close up that might be the cause. single breed clubs like the BAGSD are fine but going to another club as well can help. My friend got her GSD from a breeder who had run her & a sister on as show dogs & all poppy had seen in her life was GSDs she used to bark like mad & look quite aggressive simply because she hadn't seen the other breeds before. After a few weeks at our all breed club she learnt to ignore the other breeds The hackles going up can be a sign of fear as well as aggression, as the dog is trying to make itself look bigger & warn other dogs off. Snarling & growling can also be keep away from me signs

One other thing that comes to mind is Has she has a season ? Seasons especially the first one can be very confusing times for the bitch

No trainer should dictate what collar you should use ie tell you to use a choker if you don't wnat to. The reason why chokers are not popular any more is the damage they can do to a dog. As far as I am aware the BAGSD advises against the use of them.

Hi ladies i have taken your advice and i have been on the APDT site and found a trainner in my area and she also said leave the choke chain at home and i have an appointment in the morning with her i dont care about the cost i just want a well behaved induvidual. She said she will help me with the halti and try the clicker .i hope this works as i would love to do obedience with her as she is realy sweet and i dont want people thinking that she is nasty as they do not no her i will let you know how we get on I can not thank you all enough for your help.Karen

That is great news Karen.  I would agree that the GSD training club sounds behind the times.  I really hope this trainer you meet with agrees that she can join in a class, because I think that would be excellent and a clicker class is an even better idea.

Hi she did say that before we joined her class that she will do a one to one asesment and use some of her own dogs. I am chuffed because it is a step in the right direction. Has anyone tried the clicker trainning as i did buy one a few weeks ago but being a novice with shepherds .

Yes, I clicker train all mine and it is an excellent way to train.

This is a great website with lots of info about how to get started:

http://www.clickersolutions.com/articles/

http://www.clickertraining.com/training/dogs/

Are you sure its aggression she is showing as I have a 7 month RottiexGSD bitch who has entered the "Kevin" stage and when she sees other dogs she pulls towards them, hackles up barking ferociously,  But if you go up to them she just goes all silly and wants to play.  Think its just the uncertainty of who this dog might be.
Not good I admit when the other dog may be aggresive and interprets her behaviour as aggression, but hopefully by meeting enough friendly dogs and rewarding the good behaviour we will nip this in the bud.
I use a halti sometimes and I can't see how yours has chewed it.  If its the strap that runs from the halti to attatch to the collar that is too long then thread it round the collar first.

Bev

HI i took her ladyship to the new trainner today it went well (i think) she told me that she has no respect for me so my first course of action is to go back to basics and start again,(when we first had her we wanted to show her and the local puppy class we went to we were told not to be to hard on her as it would not pay off if we were to strict) but now i know diferrent. After the inital assesment she fetched one of her dogs in and she was going crazzy hackels were up and barking and lungeing like a nutter ,she had a correction spray with her and she did not take any notice of it, so the asumption was that corrective trainning would not make any difference to her.After a few seconds she stoped performing and started to roll about inviting the other dog to play (shock to me) the trainer thinks it is just that she likes to play rough. She recomended that i buy a muzzle when takinig her for a walk as it would be a comfort for me to know that she can not hurt anything so everything will be more relaxed . she introduced us to the clicker and gave us some home work to do we go back on tuesday , and then hopefuly she will let us into her classes which i would realy enjoy , i am going to make sure that we do get through this 'kevin' stage

I read what you wrote with a wry smile on my face, you don't have an aggressive GSD bitch, simply a typical adolescent GSD puppy. 99% of all GSDs like to play rough. It's part of their make up & that is why I advise people to go to a GSD only club by all means but also to go to an all breed club so they experience other breeds & dogs they have not seen before. My BC's have always been brought up with GSDs so do tend to play the same way all mouth & trousers is what my friend trainr told me over 40 years ago.

Don't know how your bitch is bred & I've only even had German bred GSDs & believe me a litter of 7 week GSDs at full throttle sound as if they are killing each other when in fact they are all having a whale of a time. My GSD bitch plays hard but is also incredibly gentle with the little dogs & puppies

Hi i have just been out for a walk and she just went nuts at some jrts in there garden i do not think that she wanted to play she was quite agressive but they were barking and being quite intimidating so she probably shouting back at them is this teenage behavior?

That's pretty normal. Many dogs will swear back if they're bening sworn at - it's no indicator of bad temperament. :) When one of mine does that I make him sit and we don't move on until he's quiet. (If I'm feeling really tetchy I don't move on until the horrid dogs who started it are quiet too, so as to help their owner (if they're even bothered) teach them not to do it!)

Thanks for that alot of people around were we live do not care at all and i think that, that is half of our trouble. Just had a quick walk around the block and there are plenty of gobby dogs and she has been her usual gobby self but i am trying to distract her with the clicker and she is responding to it ,and i have only tried it since 11 am today so quite impressed but  thanks for all the advice i have recived from everyone here as it has  been a big help i know i must sound a bit dim but this is my first shepherd and i want to do my best by her but i seem to be making some mistakes along the way.

dont be too hard on your self, with the best will in the world when we do something for the first time we are bound to make mistakes, and even if it is the right thing there is always someone out there that will dissagree. I am on my first dog too  (gsd) and I have made mistakes, but we learn from them. last week I was dissappointed with mine as he "lost it" for a minute, but then it was a one off rare incident that used to be commonplace so i have made progress overall. Today he sat quietly while 2 horses walked past him not 5 feet away, thats cause for celebration. The best advise that people have given me is to enjoy my dog and keep normal training going. From my very minimal experience it sounds like your dog wants to play.

Be careful when you are using the clicker that you don't use it as a distraction device.

By that I mean - the clicker is like a camera, taking a picture of the behaviour your dog is doing when you click.  Whatever you click, you get more of.

So, if your dog is barking at another dog, and you click your dog, and your dog looks at you - then you are rewarding the barking, because that is what the dog was doing when you clicked.

Make sure that you are only clicking when your dog is looking at you and is quiet - offering you the behaviour you want.

Then you click, and you MUST give a reward every time you click.

You should also have charged the clicker up - are you sure you've had enough time to charge the clicker up?  (ie - click, give a treat, click, give a treat - without asking for any behaviour yet)?

Hi i have been clicking from the other room and when she comes igive her a treat then i ask her to sit and then click and treat but that is as far as it has gone upto now but she seems very intrested

Hi Katja, If you are clicking from the other room, how do you know what your dog is doing when you click??

And if you are still charging the clicker, why are you asking for behaviours?  (Sit?)

Please do some more reading before you use the clicker again or you are going to confuse your dog:

http://www.learningaboutdogs.co.uk/clicker_getting%20started.htm

http://www.clickertraining.com/training/dogs/

http://www.clickersolutions.com/articles/

Hmm I think you need help with the basics of clicker training, it is a secondary reinforcer NOT a cue/command.

The basic principles of clicker training is a) get the behaviour b) click to tell the dog it is i) correct ii) that a treat is coming and iii) that the behaviour is finished, and then c) give the primary reinforcer eg food, ball etc.

I have seen a lot of people using the clicker in this way, that is not what it was designed for..............

Best of Luck

So after she has sat i then click and treat behaviouroverand then treat and praise again (no click for the last treat),hwo long would you say it takes to charge the clicker properly.

Charging the clicker is a different thing, you can do it by either throwing food on the floor and clicking each time you throw or by putting food on the floor and clicking each time the dog eats a bit, you will know when the clicker is charged if the dog immediately looks at you when it hears the click.

I would say several sessions of this over a couple of days should do it.

Yes, click words, preferably something that dog will never hear normally (eg in my house it would be sex) :D :D

are just as good if used properly.

ROFL at tohme!! :D

Karen,

Before you can use the clicker properly to train, you need to do what is called "charging the clicker".  You only do this once in your dog's life.  During this time you don't ask for behaviours.  All you are doing is associating the click with a treat.  So you click, chuck a treat on the floor.  Keep doing this until all the treats are gone.  Do this a couple of times a day, for 3 days, and then your dog will be what is called "clicker charged".

After this you can start to ask for behaviours FIRST, before you click.  So then you say: Sit.  Dog sits.  You click at the instant the dog sits (not afterwards, but as her bum goes down).  Then give a treat.  That's the end.  The click goes before the treat, not afterwards.

The click means:

1.  Dog, you did good- that was the right behaviour.
2.  You are going to get a treat for it.
3.  The behaviour is over, you can stop doing it now.

So, if you are doing a sit, when you click, the dog will often stand up - that's ok.  Because the click means "end of behaviour".  Get it?

Hmm I think you need help with the basics of clicker training, it is a secondary reinforcer NOT a cue/command.

I think this is why some trainers now are ditching the clicker and instead using a quick/short word such as "good" or "yes". I'm training like this and I find it a lot easier as there is no clicker to worry about, and my dogs are certainly getting it, they know the "good" (never drawn out to "gooood" as is often done in "good dog", it has to be said quick) means correct behaviour and treat will follow and they have finished.

A chap in our park keeps using it incorrectly, I've tried telling him but he won't have it, and I don't want to argue. He clicks it at his dog meaning that he wants her to come, but she just ignores him! No idea if he ever built it up by treating without the behaviour, but the poor thing will never learn like that. Ah well! :rolleyes:

Ah well you can not help some people , but i am finding the clicker  is giving us a whole new perspective on things i know that i can not work wonders over night but i will try my best. All the good advice on this site  is very helpful and i am very greatfull for it so many thanks to you all.

He he he he.Im sorry but i just had to laugh at the post.We had two GSDs and they do the same thing.My older boy is nearly six and he runs towards other dogs barking and fluffed up but when he actually gets there all he wants to do is play.It is true that GSDs are very vocal,mine never shuts up. :D We do the clicker training and now our dogs respond to a tut sound made by the toungue.Its really funny how they click on so quick. :)

Hi there:
   We have a very large two-year-old GSD (living in an apartment on the 37th floor in midtown Manhattan, New York), and we were having terrible problems with the dog's agression towards other dogs. It reached a point where we were going to have to give him away (or move) because he could not be trusted in any of the public areas (especially elevators) of our building. We were heart-broken, especially since he got that way from being attacked twice by other dogs at....TRAINING CLASS!
    Anyway, we got a fantastic trainer. Very expensive, but wonderful. After one hour, the dog was SO much better. After 6 hours (two hours a week for 3 weeks), the problem was solved (along with pulling, barking, and other silly stuff). How did the trainer do it? Well, it was us that he had to train, of course. But first he got rid of all collars, haltis, treats, whatever. He put on a very thin (about 1/2 inch thick) slip collar made of parachute cord with a skinny leash made of the same material. We were very anxious when we saw it because the dog is BIG and very strong. Anyway, it works like this: You walk along with the collar and leash slack; if the dog pulls or does anything you don't want him to do, he gets a sudden jerk, which tightens the collar, of course. He has to get used to following your every move without your dragging, pulling, or urging. When he walks off in his own direction, even to smell, he gets a jerk. When he's doing things right, he gets praise. He has to get permission to sniff stuff, to pee, to poo, whatever. You are the boss. He learns that and then he relaxes. He realizes that someone else is in charge of things and that he doesn't have to take over and/or be scared of dogs. We have been very consistent and I have to say we are all so much happier. The dog is perfectly behaved. He sits, lies down, stands, walks, stops, pees etc, all on command...and he is a really happy and relaxed dog. No problems in the elevator or with neighbors. No problems with dogs. No more sleepless nights. I recommend spending money (if you can) on a really, really good trainer, not on classes. Get the problem really well wrapped up in a few good hours with an expert - but it must be an expert. I have to say that I almost fainted when I heard how much the guy was going to charge, but it has been so worth it. Actually, I think we got better value from our dog trainer than from the money we spent on our kids' private school.
Good luck. the problem CAN be solved, but it won't be solved without expert help, and it will get worse (and dangerous) without help.
Anthea in New York

Hmm. Train by pain. :(

Anthea in the UK we have very much moved away from those kind of training methods as they are NOT kind and are outdated. I'd leave that trainer at once. I currently am going on a course in competitive obedience for a very good trainer, and the way she teaches heelwork is by not having a lead or collar at ALL!

I don't think your problem is solved :(  I firmly believe by teaching your dog to cover up his perfectly normal reaction to something he doesn't understand or feel comfortable with by using PAIN will only result in the dog finding some other outlet for his stress - this may be something as 'simple' as chewing, but it may mean the dog will switch off to you and not respond (because it connects being with you as uncomfortable) OR it may appear to cope well for a period of time, and then react suddenly and severly :(

There are FAR better ways of acheiving the same result. - Carefully planned desensitisation and socialisation to start with, but of course, these take some effort from the trainer and owners, and take TIME.......  But you have a far more reliable dog in the end.

Yes I agree with what the others here have said. 

Imagine: You are terrified of cars because once you had been run over.  Every time a car drives past you try to defend yourself against it the only way you know how, by shaking your fist at it and swearing at it. 

The someone comes along, and every time you see a car and swear at it to protect yourself like this, you get a thin, cutting cord yanked around your neck.

Does this make you like cars anymore?  No.  In fact you like them LESS because every time you see one, you get yanked.  So you now associate seeing a car with getting yanked.

Does it make you want to be around cars anymore?  No.

It just makes you hide the swearing and the threat display.  But if a car got really close to you, and you felt really threatened by it, who knows what you would do to it, suddenly and with no warning - especially as you hate it so much more now you think that cars mean painful yanks around the neck.  You might smash all the damn windows in. 

This is the thought process your dog is going through.  You have not taught your dog to like other dogs.  You have not taught it to change its attitude to the other dog.  In fact, you've taught it to hate other dogs even more, because every time it sees a dog it gets a painful yank.  It may APPEAR to tolerate other dogs, but you are treading on thin ice because sooner or later another dog will get too close or seem too threatening, and you will have let your guard down because your dog doesn't seem to be aggressive any more and.....bam....your dog does serious damage.

I sincerely hope you don't use the same criteria to choose your kids' private school as you use to choose a dog trainer.  Sorry, but you paid someone a lot of money to abuse your dog.  :(

To me that is cruelty. Do not use these collars. Your dogs problems are not solved they have just been coered up by pain and a cruel method of controlling behaviour. It will cause more problems in the long run. If you are going to rehome this dog, do so with people who do not live in a apartment in a city like newyork. My partner's dad lives in Manhatten and owns appartments in Manhatten that he rents out, and he would not allow people to have pets like a GSD because of the size of dog in relationship to the size of your living space. How often are you taking your dog out?

Hi i totaly agree ,as i have tried the check chain method and it was cruel ,and every time i put it on my girl i felt as if i was letting her down by yanking at her .I would say it is more of a form of bulling and would you have any respect for anyone who had behaved in this manner to you (i dont think so) and for a time you would put up with it but then imagine the anger that starts to build up inside you and then one day you can't take anymore you start to shake and feel you are going mad and then bang you lose it all together heaven help anyone who is one the reciving end ,you have been pushed that far into a corner it does not matter who it is dog,cat, man woman or most of all a poor little child so thanks but i feel i will stay with my halti and try to gain respect with love and afecttion . I feel sick and ashamed that i had used a chain because someone had told that it would get results and now i know better thanks to the people on this forum, i will take my chance with my halti and clicker ,yes i would love her to drop everything for me but if she does not i hope she will not hate me because all i want is a companion not a robot

I completely agree with you katja, a police handler I sort of know wanted me to use his pinch/prong collar on my dog to stop him wanting to go after cats when on the lead, I knew it would stress him more and perhaps ruin his trust in me so i never considered it. It was hard because he is a "professional" and you assume they know best. I now understand the difference between disobedience and overstimulation and excitement in my dog and can react accordingly. To inflict pain would have been the very worst thing.