I don't want to open up a debate on docking, i just have a question.

Could i please ask in advance NOT to recieve any opinions on the docking ban,

Thanks, now thats out of the way(i know feelings run high) Why do  working Spaniels, Vizlas, Pointers, Weims etc need their tails docked to avoid injury when Labs, Flat coats, Curly coats Goldens etc don't??

I honestly don't know, please help

Different type of work, cover and tail action.

Would it not be unreasonable to think perhaps it should be bred out of them?? (Tail action, Hair on tail) If it causes a problem for the dogs??

I'd imagine breeding the tail action out of a breed like that would be as hard as trying to breed out the retrieving instinct in a Golden! Just something they're born with. Really what you're saying is breed dogs that don't wag.

Cover refers to Ground cover, brambles, undergrowth etc, not the fur on the tail, though hari does protect the tails, so short haired thin tailed dogs will have a bigger problem.

I know you meant brambles etc by cover, i was just trying to think of other differences between them. Loads of hair on a spaniel and not much on the others.Vizla, Weim ,Pointer.

I wasn't trying to suggest breeding out the tail wagging!! Although it would stop our coffee table being cleared by the Labs!

also Goldmali, Goldens aren't docked so tail action doesn't affect them surely? Labs are about the waggiest dogs of all and they aren't docked either.

I' really not trying to get at anyone, i don't want it to come across as that at all, i am just aking the questions that i keep thinking about and as they arise. :-)

Labs retrieve shot game, and are not required to go into cover to flush them out.  The continental dogs do all three jobs Hunt, point and retrieve, which is why they are docked like the hunting Spaniels.

Teh bigger retrievers with their thick coats are of a height that even when they enter cover are not so prone to tail damage,a dn of course the shrtcoated HPRs haven't the protection, and do enter more cover to flush game, not just retrieve it.

also Goldmali, Goldens aren't docked so tail action doesn't affect them surely? Labs are about the waggiest dogs of all and they aren't docked either.

Thats' not what I said, I said breeding out the tail action in say a Springer would be equal to breeding out the retrieve in a Golden -it's both something the breeds are known for and born with and it's very strong in the breeds.

I think you have to bear in mind these docking were first carried out long before there were shows or any other asthetic judgement of the dogs and, in the case of all the gun dogs anyway, long after it was an issue of taxing working dogs in short at a time when there was no other reason to go to the trouble of docking these breeds other than what the sportsmans was finding was necessary.  Particularly as other gun dogs were not found to need the procedure as evidenced that they were not just removing all tails willy nilly.

Ok, thanks for all of your replies. :-) It has answered questions i have been wondering about for ages. It just took a debate on docking on my local radio to make me think to ask you on here.:rolleyes:

Thanks very much, you can now feel good that you have put someones mind at rest! :-)

The answer to this question has been posted numerous times in the past, including quite recently. If you check out the search facility, you will find hundreds of past threads on this subject :)

Ooops! sorry didn't think to search it. Anyway it's all finished now.

Well done Helen, I've been wondering that for ages too! Hadn't thought to search either.

When King Charles Spaniels  were actual working spaniels(used to flush & retrieve Woodcock-before the Victorians bred their faces flat) they had docked tails & for a long time(well before any anti docking debates & laws)the breed standard for tails allowed for both docked & natural tails JFYI

Both standards for Charlies and Cavaliers still allow for docking. (I.e. it says it is optional.) I've seen plenty of docked Charlies but only ever one docked Cavalier.

The tail action in a Spaniel is a good indication of what the nose is telling it. A gentle wag will turn into a frantic wag when they get a really good scent. Who would want to breed out wagging - would mean breeding for poor temperament surely?

You'll just have to bred them with tightly curled tails :D

Docked tails still wag furiously.  My dog's tail is docked and looks like it's spinning when she has found something really exciting :D Fab to watch, just love it :D

Difference between some breeds' tails is the fineness.  Labs are thick and sturdy whereas others are really fine but you wouldn't necessarily know because they are mostly docked.

I didn't at any point say to breed out wagging. that would be like saying breed out breathing!

What i meant was (and i accept i maybe didn't put it clearly enough but i was thinking about it as i was writing) why not breed the docked dogs to have tails more like the un-docked ones? As they were orginally bred for usefulness not looks then i can see why this wasn't done?

Surely someone must have thought how they could improve the situation as they did with honing the retrieving instinct and the point.
I am only speculating, i have no experience with working gundogs but am just thinking about it logically as i see it

I would say because everyone involved with these breeds will have seen for themselves how little docking bothers the pups when done by an experienced practitioner so there really was no need to consider doing it another way.  It is really only in very recent years that the anti brigade have whipped this up in the, unaware, publics imagination.  Perhaps if a ban was introduced breeders would be forced to do that to try to avoid inevitable injury but as has been said it is no easy matter, if you cross with other breeds you risk alter the whole character and in particular working characteristics of the breed or perhaps certain breeds will just be no longer be viable in the sports field :(

That still wouldn't get around the problem of the sort of work the dogs are for. A spaniel's job is to flush pout game, so needs to go into brambles, under hedges - in tight, thorny places. Unless they keep their tails dead still (which they won't because theiy're excited and happy) they're going to get damaged. A spaniel's natural tail is very similar to a setter's tail - setters aren't docked because they don't do the same job of going into cover.

I didn't at any point say to breed out wagging. that would be like saying breed out breathing!

No you said to breed out the tail action which is the same thing. :)

:rolleyes::rolleyes:Ok ok you got me!! I hadn't read back over my posts, just writing from memory from yesterday! Reading back over it it does appear i said that, perhaps looking back it wasn't the most sensible thing!! ;-) But as i did say earlier, i'm writing as it occurs to me, so not really thinking to much around the whole problem.

*Grumbles* why arent flatties docked:rolleyes: Have just lost another glass.......and permanent bruises on my legs too ;)

i work my spaniels and have had a spaniel with full tail never again, also had a gordon setter who i had to put a hair roller on the end of the tail to stop the thin skin bursting when wagging tail, if hit of kitchen counter etc(blood everywhere!!!!! everywhere! on a daily basis!)
i am assuming this is why, very boney tails, unlike the thick chunky of say a lab.
hope this helps
caroline

but gordon setters arent  traditionally docked do you think they should be?

no im just saying that due to the thin skin on their tails it can be sore if they are constantly hurting themselves.

please no debates on dock/not dock etc

I sometimes wish IWs (slashing waist high tail wag) were docked as I have a whole cupboard full of giant hair rollers, plastic skin etc that has seen a lot of use on assorted split IW tails. :)