has any of the board members any experience/comments with regard to using an older (10 - 11 years) dog on their bitches that has never mated a bitch. I know it will depend on the dog and some will be keen and some not, but has anyone been successful. What are the chances of fertility etc etc.

I've never used a dog that old but you can get a sperm count done to assess his fertility before 'wasting' a bitches season with a hit and miss attempt!!
Becky

yes - if he was mine would def have sperm counted but unfortunately not mine. I personally think would be sods law - if he accidently managed to mate a bitch, there would be pups, if it was a planned tried , then would be unsucessful, I tried to use an untried  7 year old 15 months or so back, just wasnt interested at all. This is where I wish the KC would allow semen to be collected and stored for years and even if the dog had never fathered a litter, they would allow AI. Too many bloodlines being lost from 'unfashionable' good dogs.

I think the eldest in my breed was 6 and then he produced a couple of litters.  I have used an 11 year old dog but he had been used a few times before.  I did have a few heartattacks though whilst using him at that age, I'd never do it again :d

we used a 10 year old well experienced stud who had had many pups but we missed

I used a 9 yeal old dog it was his first breeding and I got 11 pup's,from 1 mating.
The stud that my litter is from is 10 but he had sired many litters we had 10 pups 2 died,also from 1 mating.
I also have a new pup and her dad is 11 and had sired 3 litters in his life,she is out of a litter of 9.
I guess it all depends on the dog and his condition,the 9 year old stud I used was in great condition and had lots of energy and was very healthy.

On this subject, what's everyone's opinion on the stud fee for an unproven  dog? Should it be less than the fee for a proven dog?

I'm paying alot of money for an unproven dog, but there is a full refund on offer should he not perform or a repeat mating at the next season.

If he produces then his stud fee should be the same.  I wouldn't expect to pay for an untried dog up front though.

> If he produces then his stud fee should be the same.  I wouldn't expect to pay for an untried dog up front though. <

I had this thought too but at the end of the day it's the owner of the stud dog who makes the rules isn't it? I do trust them to be honest and refund or repeat, if necessary  :)

The one I am using is £50 less than the proven one the stud owner has, not to be paid until I know there are pups.

thx all. The dog I am thinking of is v fit - has just done a season working. But - I just have my doubts. re stud fee - being unproven etc - I think I would negotiate an agreement if I went ahead and managed to get a mating to pay once I knew there were pups. Normally I would expect to pay for the service and if no pups either a return mating or write off to experience but this I would consider a 'special' case.

For an unproven dog I'd expect to pay a nominal sum (say £50) for the service, with the balance (less than that of a proven stud whose progeny have been reasonably successful in their field) payable either on confirmation of pregnancy or the birth of a litter. Of course the details would have to be agreed in writing beforehand. :)

Thanks all for the replies. I think what you just said JG makes a LOT of sense.:)

flynns dad was 13/14 when he sired flynns litter. BUT he had sired litters throughout his life. Nothing wrong with his fertility thouigh. lovely litter of 6 

however i do know of some older male dogs,who after been told off for being interested all their life,just dont have the confidence to "so it" when it comes down to it.

If the bitch is not a maiden, I'd say your chances are reasonable, if she's a maiden, you'll probably end up with 2 totally confused dogs! I've used an experienced dog of 13 who sired a litter of 6 for me & the following week a litter of 6 for his owner (av. is 4 in our breed)

on the subject of stud fee's what is the  average cost of a stud does it differ from breed  to breed I presume a champion will cost more??
Would you use a Ch that has say proven himself progeny 250 at the age of 10yrs??

Roni

Unless he was absolutely perfect for my bitch then no, I probably wouldn't use him. Not because of his age, but because of the risk of limiting the gene pool - it only needs one popular stud to be found to be carrying a genetic problem and the whole breed's at risk.

In my experience stud fees are generally somewhat less than the price of a puppy.

Thanks JJ  :)

My friend tried to use another friend's 10 year old untried dog but he wasn't interested. Worked out nicely for me though as she phoned me up and said 'can I come straight down and use your boy please!' :-D

Not bred lots of litters but each one was given lots of thought & the first Beardie one was by a champion but & it's a very big but he was chosen long before he has even seen the show ring on his breeding-Rosie(the bitch)then decided not to have any seasons for 3 years after her first one so he was made up by the time she went to him He was owned by a friend BTW & bred by her from a bitch whose lines were very similar to ours

The other litter of Beardies took me ages to find the best dog because in the intervening time between the first litter & my next bitch being bred just about everyone had flocked like lemmings to one dog & it nearly proved impossible to find a dog without him. Opted to use an older untitled dog with an impeccable "old"pedigree going back to the first dogs registered & he produced a cracking litter from Breeze

Beardies now are no better gene pool wise that back in the 1980's in fact probably worse as the inbreeding on the one dog is even more concentrated than ever & I know of one breeder who is really struggling to find a stud without him for a truly lovely bitch she has & whose type would be spoilt by adding him to the lines

So would I use a champion with so many offspring Only if he was the only dog totally suitable for my bitch  & I would expect to pay a reasonable amount dependant not on his wins but his bloodlines

In my breed the stud fees are the same for all males, the current price of a puppy.

Unfortunately in my breed we have some over-greedy owners. :(

I prefer to use older dogs as I then know the type of puppies they produce and also I can be reasonbly sure that no health or temperament problems will be apparent in their offspring.  I used a champion who was over 12 years and got 8 puppies a couple of years ago, although that was a bit older than I usually like!

As for a proving stud.  I give the mating free on the understanding that a stud fee will be paid if puppies are born - although a few years ago a "big" breeder in my breed used my dog as a proving stud and got a lovely litter of 10.  She then refused to pay because "I don't believe in paying for a proving stud".  Even though she had agreed to pay at the time of mating.

Another advantage of using older dogs is that at least you know they don't suffer from a condition that causes early death! Long-lived lines are good. :)

I would have no problem using an older dog who had been used, but I would ask myself why an old dog hadn't been considered good enough to be used by somebody in 10 years.

thx all for your replies - lots to think about and lose sleep over!!

re Val's  post - he is in a 'pet' home and unknown to the outside world for all intents and purposes. The shoot he works in is lab&springer. But - he is carrying a goldmine of old lines which havent been mixed with todays popular ones. He is bred in a very similar way to my now deceased old boy who lived to 14.5

Very interesting. :)  I can see why you are interested.
Are the owners aware that if they allow him to be used, it could well change his personality, making letting him off his lead in public places very difficult?  I trimmed a number of pet dogs whose owners thought 'he would enjoy a bit of nooky':rolleyes: only to find that the now experienced dogs would run off looking for ladies in the park!
I have a 6 year old Jack Russell down here, whose VET asked to use him and then castrate him for free.  His owner hasn't been able to let him off his lead since.  Of course this doesn't happen to all dogs but.................................................
How does that work with working dogs???  I have no experience in the field.  Do they run off looking for bitches?

Hi - yes Val - they have a pointer who has been used at stud a few times. However, IF I try to use him, he will need to be health checked (eyes min)  as I think I am probably the only working cocker breeder who both eye tests and hip scores their girls before breeding, There's a lot to think about. To be honest, it would be a lot easier to trot to a younger proven FTW or FT CH that has a least an eye test but I really want these bloodlines - so sound in temp and health etc - but not as fast as todays trial dogs which is why a bit out of fashion.
By the time Ive weighed up the pros and cons, the old boy will be totally off the boil

Sweet dreams!!!!! :)

not often I post (or breed) but was really int in the boards experience. Plenty of food for thought.

Thx all.

no - not unless someone has brought an inseason bitch. I think with most, the routine of lead, wellies, gun, car etc puts their minds into an auto pilot for the day ahead and thats what they think of.

i used an 11year old untried stud with tyko for her 2nd litter , she produced 7 puppies !!! quite a brood for a mini dachsie!!!! and as the stud owner was a friend , we paid in the old way . she got pick of the litter, who has since qualified for crufts . :):

My first Munster litter was sired by my own dog and they were born on his 7th birthday.  Up until then no-one had bothered about him and quite a number of people in the breed said that it wasn't a good idea to use him over my own bitch.  However I'm glad I did as I got a Sh.Ch. bitch & a RCC winning bitch from the litter.

After that I was asked if I he could be used at stud but I refused.  I kept the RCC winning bitch and she has gone on to give me a Sh.Ch. daughter  and another 3 RCC winners, so sometimes it pays to take a gamble if you have the right gut feeling about it.  At the end of the day if you are too guided by someone else in the breed and the litter is a disaster you'll always wonder if you could have chosen better, at least if you chose yourself you have only yourself to blame!  ;)

That seems a lot to me Brainless, in Cavaliers it's more like half or 2/3 the price of a puppy. And a champion, or dogs from the really famous lines, will generally cost more than ordinary dogs! A 'big name' puppy will often cost more too. :-)

Maybe with dogs in my breed not getting much stud work unless they are a new import or something seems only fair that the stud fee should be the cost of a puppy, as after all the stud owner could have a pup as fee instead.

Many dogs only ever get used a couple of times in theri liffetimes.  the dog I last tried is achampion and at 7 years old has only sired one litter.  MY bitch missed so hoping to try him again before it is too late and his bloodline is wasted.

Sometimes in a numerically small breed it may be a while, and a couple of generations before there is a suitable bitch for a particular dog.

In my breed, the stud fee is about the price of a puppy.  A champion or an import will usually be a little bit more.  My breed tend to have 8 - 12 puppies in a litter (15 in my first!!) so does the average number of pups in a litter affect the stud fee i.e. far fewer in a CKCS litter?

Well I have reared between 3 and 9 pups with an average litter size just under 6.  I think it is more likely that in the popular breeds stud dogs are plentiful so bitch owners can go to a cheaper dog, if all they want to do is produce pups, and perhaps the males get a lot more stud work.

I used a ten year old stud who has been used through out his life but whose pervious litter was just 2 , he sired a lovely litter of 7 healthy puppies for us.
In my breeds country of origan (hungary) it seems to be common practice to use older dogs some proven and some siblings of well known and used studs.
A friend of mine just had a litter of 8 from a 11 year old unproven stud :)