Hi, Im not sure if this topic has been discussed a lot or not, I tried a quick search but couldnt really see anything. I am currently researching GR breeders and as just an average pet owner, what do I need to look for in this breed? I know GRs are very popular and I obviously want a good quality puppy even if it will just be our new pet and not shown or ever bred from. So I know the obvious things to look for...hips, eyes and of course temprement, but how important is it that the dogs are shown and are doing well in the ring? I mean, should the sire and dam both have their CH's or is that just unrealistic and unnecessary. The way that I thought about it was that even if both parents were titled there would only be a few pups that were of good enough standard to have a great show career themselves, so shouldnt people like me be the ones that buy the 'pet' quality pups that are left?

So if I see a breeder that doesnt really show, or their dogs don't do particularly well and they are breeding, should I stay away? If their dogs don't do well doesnt that mean that they are not the best dogs to breed from? so why would they do it? Do they breed because there is the chance that some of the pups could do well even if the parents didn't?
What about if their are a few champs in the pedigree, but not many recently, should those dogs be bred from? Im not sure if this makes much sense, I think Im looking at it in a totally black and white way, Im just totally confused as I have been researching so much Im tying myself in knots!

Also is it a good idea to put yourself on a couple of waiting lists with breeders, as I understand things dont always go as planned or their might not be anough pups for people, or is it unfair to the breeders to be on a couple of waiting lists?

many thanks for any advice!

Shannon, if only other new puppy buyers thought about things as much as you obviously are!

You are totally right with almost all your suspicions.  Yes, ideally, you should look for a breeder who shows, because you are right that not all the pups in the litter will be of show quality and the ones that aren't go to pet homes.  Yes, broadly speaking, if you find a breeder who doesn't show be especially wary.  Not saying forget about them, but be wary.

Personally, although my breed isn't GR, I would put yourself on more than one waiting list, if you find more than one litter you like.  But remember, when you definitely have a pup from another litter, to call the people whose waiting lists you're on and let them know that you're not looking any more.

I would also suggest that, if possible, you find out whether there are any Open shows held near where you live.    (You can find this information in Dog World & Our Dogs papers).   If you can go along, watch some GR classes & talk to some of the breeders/exhibitors (after they've been in the ring :) ) it might be of assistance to you.

Margot

Thank you very much, both of you. I never even thought about attending some open shows to see some dogs in action! Almost all of my research has been internet based as that is the only way I thought I could see the dogs without actually harrasing breeders in their homes!! I never even thought of going to shows (seems so obvious aswell!) Im sure there will be some very excellent breeders that dont make themselves known through websites!

Im not sure if this question is too open or not but as breeders yourselves (Im assuming there are many breeders on this board), do you think it is wrong to breed dogs that either arent shown or dont do very well? Is it enough that they are just taken to shows, you know...are involved in the showing world or should they actually have titles before they are bred from? I would just be really interested to hear breeders opinions on this, as I only have myself to think about this with...and I know next to nothing about it!

many thanks!

Shannon, I'm not a breeder.

I think that the question you ask is very interesting.

What if someone has a bitch of "blah blah" breed with a champion sire and champion dam, siblings that are made up to champions and many many champions in her breeding.  She is health tested and passes all health tests with flying colours.  She has a fantastic temperament and has never been aggressive.  The owner joins the breed clubs.  But this dog is not very successful at shows.  She never gets placed, even in v small classes.  Her owner continues to show her, to check out the stud dogs.  She wants to breed her and with the help of other experienced breeders, she picks out a champion stud dog for her bitch.  Do you think this breeding should go ahead or not? 

On the one hand, the dog herself hasn't demonstrated she's worth breeding from and hasn't been very successful in showing.  On the other hand there's the whole "what's behind the dog, not what the dog is" argument - and this dog has a lot behind her.  And will be mated to a stud which does too.  It's complicated and there's not an easy answer always.

By the way, you might also want to think about going to Crufts in March.  They have a big hall for "Discover Dogs", where each breed has a stall and some representatives of the breed on it.  The owners will chat to you about the breeds and you can ask any questions you like - that's the purpose of the stalls.

But this dog is not very successful at shows.  She never gets placed, even in v small classes.  Her owner continues to show her, to check out the stud dogs.  She wants to breed her and with the help of other experienced breeders, she picks out a champion stud dog for her bitch.  Do you think this breeding should go ahead or not?

If I can jump in here -to me EVERYTHING would hinge on WHY the bitch wasn't placed. Does she have a fault that she could pass on to pups? She could, even if from good breeding.  Or even worse, does she have a temperament that prohibits her from being placed? (Shy, aggressive etc.) That DEFINITELY should not be bred from. However if the faults are minor, then if mated to a very good dog I personally think that is fine in your scenario, as the person is knowledgable and not just wanting to breed from their pet for the sake of it.

Thank you onetwothree! I guess I would say that the bitch like that should be bred from..(I think?) Although I would wonder why she didnt do well, with such good prospects!! (remember I know nothing about this, dont even know why one is placed above another, they all look gorgeous to me!) in circumstances like that though, there is a great pedigree there to back up her quality (if that makes sense!) but when I look at a pedigree and see no names in red for 3 or so generations...I wonder why the breeder thought that the dogs were good enough to breed from...do they just evaluate them themselves? Is that enough? especially when it is so difficult for a GR to get titles??

Now in my bred breeders would most definately be upset with you if you booked wsith several people.  Breeders get together a waiting list ans will send peopl on to the next breeder once they have say several for each sex.  Once the litter are born they will let the people know and pass the excess enquiries on to the enxt person in the chain who may have more of the sex wanted etc.

That's interesting brainless.  In my breed there is no commitment given from either side until the pups are born, despite waiting lists.  A waiting list just means you're interested and want to be called.  A friend of mine just had a litter and had 7 people on the waiting list.  When they were born and she called round, she ended up with 3 of that 7 left.  Once they're born then in my breed with most breeders you give a verbal promise that you want the dog.  Some breeders take a deposit at that stage, which would make it more than verbal, but not many do.  So, theoretically you could refuse the pup right up till the day you go to collect and pay.

We have looked into other breeds in the past, and we were aware that things worked differently and then we realised that this side of things must differ a lot depending on the breed.  It's quite interesting really.

Hi
First off, there is plenty of good advice on this page: http://www.thegoldenretrieverclub.co.uk/

Click on "puppy news" in the menu for an article on how to buy a Golden puppy.

Secondly, parents should have been elbow scored as well as hip scored and eye tested.

Now with Goldens you'll probably know they vary a LOT between different blood lines. Some are the palest cream, amost white, some are a rich Golden in colour, and although colour should really be the last thing you worry about when picking  a puppy (anything from cream to dark gold is accepted) I have met so many people that have seen my dogs and sadly said "Oh I wanted a Golden with that sort of colour...." then looked at theirs with the opposite shade, not realising they would look different when adult. So you'll need to try to look at different breeders' dogs and see what type you prefer. So it's definitley a good idea to meet a few breeders -good option is to go to a show, virtually any show will have a good number of Goldens. :)

As for either of the parents being a Champion no, I would not worry about this at all.(And BOTH being Champions is almost unheard of!) Golden is such a huge breed numerically that normally you would only see perhaps between 5 and 10 new Champions a year, out of thousands of dogs shown (let's face it, at a normal champ.show you may have 400 Goldens or more, and only TWO of them will win a CC) , so it is EXTREMELY hard to get Champions made up. Then you also have the difference between Show Champion (show wins only) and full Champions (proved themsef in the field) , and having a Champion as a parent is even harder to find.  I've had 9 Goldens over 25 years and only ever had ONE with a Champion parent, despite ALL being from good lines and all have been shown.

However you DO want a breeder that DOES do show, parents perhaps having qualified for Crufts (OR a breeder that work their dogs, but be aware that those that ONLY do field trial work have a different type of Golden -darker, leaner, higher set ears etc, and a LOT more energy than MOST want from a family pet) -as there are far, far too many people out there just breeding from anything to make money or because they think puppies are cute, or whatever...... There ARE actually bad tempered Goldens out there, and you are a lot safer buying from somebody who actively does show and are trying to breed to the standard, which of course includes temperament as well as looks. The breed club in the link above can recommend you breeders.

Good luck!

wow, thank you so much Goldmali for your wealth of information! Very helpful indeed! I was aware about the split in the breed and know that I dont want a field golden. I have definate type in my head that I truely love, and I just want to combine that with health and temprement and Ill be there!! I was totally unaware that it was so hard for a golden to gain their championship, I wont let that be as much of an issue then! I guess if it was only the full champions that were bred from then there wouldnt be enough pups to go round! I will check out the link and definitely try to get to some shows, although I have no idea how they work..do you just show up as a spectator? Can you just wander round and chat to the owners (after they've been in the ring!...cheers Margot!)

Well, we've only got into the showing circle in the last 6/7 years when we got our first Aussie.  Before then, our labs had always been working dog lines.  However, having now got into showing - albeit infrequently this last 18 months - our experience is this.

We've had 1 litter of aussies, 4 of which have been shown, with a little success.   The other three are happily homed as pets - one is a PAT dog, one "helps" with horses & geese, and the other purely as a pet.   We are thinking about breeding from one of our two, maybe in the next year.

Hope that helps a bit!

Margot

Just to add my tuppence worth, in the toy breeds (at least in Cavaliers) I get the impression that the good show bitches aren't always the good brood bitches. My bitch for example, though she does quite well at open level (see my brag at her First in junior today!) is a bit up to size for a bitch, and is very chunky and sturdy. This makes her a good prospect for whelping a healthy litter easily, but not so good for the judges looking for tiny petite bitches. And of course, those tiny petite bitches could well have trouble whelping naturally.

Goldies are my breed and I'm waiting for a bitch to whelp at any time (not an ad - all sold I think) but althought mine are from show lines and not working I am breeding for obedience. I have one successful obedience bitch now aged 3 from the same mating, hence the reason for this awaited litter. Okay I do not show I don't even have an affix, there are successful sh ch in her line but I think the best way to choose a pup is (after checking the hips and elbows scores and eyes are clear of course) is to see the mum (and dad if poss) and see if they take your heart. My pups are kept in the kitchen and conservatory for the entire 8 weeks plus exercise in the garden as they grow up and I feel that a home envoironment is more important upbringing than a pedigree pup from a champ that has spent the first 8 weeks of life in a kennel environment. ( I don't meen that all breeders keep pups couped up but many do)
Good Luck they really are a wonderful breed.

I think the best way to choose a pup is (after checking the hips and elbows scores and eyes are clear of course) is to see the mum (and dad if poss) and see if they take your heart.

I find that it's often the grandparents that have more influence on the pups born, which is very almost impossible for a family looking for a pet to see.  Seeing a friendly sire and dam has lulled many a family into a false sense of security!  There are, of course, some well planned matings where the breeder owns the stud dog as well as the bitch, but generally, these are few and far between.

I would suggest that the purchaser asks the breeder before they even go to view the parents, why they have done the mating that they've done, what they are aiming to achieve from the mating, and how many dogs in the first 3 generations they actually know, because all of these things would influence my respect for them as breeders.

I have 2 goldens a 3 yr old male and a 12 week old female both from working lines. yes these are very different, and not for the faint hearted...:rolleyes:coat is different although my friends have both working and show goldens and all to me are lovley.
To me I would look for temprements, first and foremost, and  of course health checks.Both mine come from same breeder we see both mum & Dad  we had to wait for our girl, but the wait was worth it,be prepared to wait and as said before go on lots of lists, also depends have you decided whether you want a male or female,? usually the wait for a girl is longer, (in my experience anyway).
Good luck in your search, and you wont be dissappointed when you get one, they are the most wonderful breed,once they get under your skin, you are hooked for life...

Thank you...I actually forgot to mention that we do have a golden already, but not from a breeder I would ever like to go back to, hence all the research this time. I really want to do it properly, I would love a breeder that WANTS to know how the dog is doing, wants to see picturess and actually cares who we are in the first place. The breeders we got our current golden couldn't have cared less. I was very uneducated about all this before, as we had only had rescue dogs, so didnt have a clue what went into a purchasing a pedigree pup, if only I had found this site a few years ago! But after being an avid reader of this site I have found out what the experience SHOULD be like, so thank you to all, you do lots of unknown good work for people like me,that just like to read and don't necessarily post much!

Some dogs are winners, some produce.  I have seen CH Sire and Dam produce 'poor specimins'.  Just because a bitch has not been shown shouldnt mean anything.  We all know that good dogs sometimes dont get a look and and hey ho poor dogs win tickets because of WHO is handling.  If it is a bitch that hasnt been shown you could always ask them to get the opinion of an unbiased judge and ask thim if she is a good specimin of the breed.  After all there is NO perfect dog, every dog has their faults and breeders strive to improve on what they have.  I would happily buy a puppy from a show person if the dam hadnt been shown aslong as a good stud had been chosed and weas producing quality pups.  On the other hand I would NOT buy a puppy from someone who does not show because how do they know what their dams/sires faults are, do they care about the breed standard, health testing etc.  Only the other day I had a lady ask me if I knew of a home for her 16 month old bitch, I told her she should contact the 'breeder' in the first instance, she said she had but he didnt want to know - but I bet he still produces puppies. I hope this makes sense?  I know there are 'breeders' who dont take puppies back but the majority try to.  I would always ask whoever you buy a pup from if they would take it back if things went pear-shaped.

Maybe dogs that produce well are not going to be top winners, but they should certainly be able to place well at some level of competion to merit being used for breeding.