We have 2 Maremma sheepdogs. The dog is nearly 2 and the bitch is 10 months. They are wonderful dogs and are great friends. We have never had them show aggression to us (we can take bones off them etc) and they are fairly good with people coming to the house – once they have been formally introduced they are fine. The issue is with when we have them out for a walk. The male can be a funny with other males, especially if they start the growling. This is typical Maremma and not a problem. The problem is with the bitch. When she is on a lead she is a little sod, particularly with other dogs.

They have both gone through puppy training/socialisation and we often take them to places like Pets at Home. While they are suspicious of people to some extent (that is part of the breed) they won’t do more than grumble if someone they don’t know comes running up to them (which is a nightmare because they look absolutely gorgeous). However I tend to take them for a walk down some public footpaths near our home. If we meet someone else with dog(s) the bitch will growl, lunge and generally behave like she is trying to attack the other dog. This tends to cause the dog to want to join in (although he will be told).

Everything we’ve tried with the bitch doesn’t seem to work: We have tried getting one of those citrus collars (which works a treat if she is being naughty and barking about in the garden for no reason) but she just ignores it when she is trying to get at the other dog. I’ve tried tapping her on the nose or staring her out – which again she ignores. I’ve tried offering her a treat but the treat is nothing compared to getting at the other dog. Once the dog is gone and she calms down she is apologetic and fawning with me.

Ironically she did get off the lead a couple of weeks ago when my wife had them out. When she got to the other dog she just danced around it bowing as if she wanted to play (while the other dog growled at her!).

They love being off a lead but while they are both great at recall with no distractions, if the bitch sees another dog she is off and no amount of shouting will get her back. I tend to keep her on an extender unless I can see a long way in front. They are big dogs and I’m always nervous because if an incident happened (with a small dog like a jack Russell) they could cause a lot of damage.

Even at 10 weeks of age at puppy class she wasn’t very confident of herself and I wonder if the problem is her being nervous. While we have to push the male out of the way if we are vacuuming, she is scared to death of the hoover, lawnmower or similar mechanical device. I’m not sure whether that is part of the same problem.

The 2 get on brilliantly and while she does tent to boss the male around for bones etc, in general they play fight together all the time and he in particular pines if they are split up.

She has recently been in season (and spent 3 weeks at my parents) and we plan on having her spayed in September. Will this calm her down with her lead aggression? Also, while the male was never as bad as she is, he has calmed down a lot in the last 6 months. Will she calm down with age?

Does anyone have any ideas about what the problem is or how we can work on improving her behaviour?

HelloTony Must ask! what do they look like the maremma breed
not belgiun are they ?do the breed look a tad like a gsd
pat

They're Italian flock guards - big, white, independent (some would say bloody minded :) ), protective and very beautiful.

Pat,

Have a look at this.

Fiona
x x x

Fiona hi did have a look very nice,That is another breed I know about now
thought the dogs looked like the pyranian breed [sorry that spelling is disgusting ]

The other breed I would love to know about is the italian water dog ?
Pat xxxx

Hi Patricia - you're right - they are similar in many ways. The Maremma is the Italian "cousin" to the Pyrenean - bred for the same purpose (and probably in the dim and distant past from the origin) and similar in temperament (though closer to the working strain than Pyreneans here I think). Main differences - Maremma slightly smaller and more agile (though still big!), different head shape, always white (no markings), no rear dew claws, tail carried lower (at least meant to be :) ). And more beautiful - but then I am biased! :D

Thank you so interesting and your breed is very nice and yes would have the edge
on the pyreneans in my book .you also answered my other question regading the markings &colourings
my breed are cattle dogs so are very highly strung .

Pat xx

They seem to resemble Kuvascz (sp?) Hungarian Flock dogs.

Yes Kuvasz are the Hungarian "version" - there are very similar white flockguards across Europe and beyond (Akbash, Tatra, Cuvac etc) as well as coloured, corded and shaggy ones! The origins are a matter of debate (each breed seems to have its own theory!) but there seems little doubt that they all have some relationship way back (and more recently too if folklore is to be believed!)

Sorry Tony for "hijacking" your original post with discussion about Maremmas - hope others will have more suggestions for how to deal with Lexie's behaviour!

Pat,

Tony, can not post a link to piccies of his dogs in his post (Terms of Service), so I have done it for him:

Camlann ~ 1 year old

Camlann & bitch puppy

The trophies are Camlanns.

Thank you Leigh

It is so good to find out about dogs you have never heard of
I read the history as well so was well pleased . Thank u Pat xx

Hi Tony
Nice to see another Maremma person here! Her behaviour could be nerves
- Grace (you remember her!) is nervous and her response is furious barking. But it is a pain in the neck if they can't be off lead around other dogs - you expect it to a degree with the adult males but not with a young female. A few things I would try straight away. First - take her out on her own. She doesn't need him getting in on the act to back her up - and you don't need to be hanging on to two LWDs rather than just one! They can play together at home but it sounds to me like she needs some one to one training. Second - do you know any dogs that are good with other dogs who would be a "stooge" (and possibly play off lead with her - sounds like she is OK off lead in fact?)? It sounds like she needs more socialising with other dogs both off and on lead. If you want we can meet up sometime and walk her with Florence and/or Grace. You really need to deal with this in a controlled situation - I don't believe you can untrain this behaviour in the "stress of the moment" - you need to start in a controlled environment with a known "other" dog - possibly in a class but I would be careful as many dogs in classes are likely to have problems too!
Once she is better there then you can move to the real thing.
In the mean time when you see a dog coming move her off the path and make her sit (much easier to get her attention on you before she confronts the other dog - once she has you have lost). We still do this with Grace and joggers - and as long as we see them first she will sit quietly and let them pass! If she won't sit then she needs more training in that. In fact at this age revving up the general obedience training won't do any harm at all. If you are not already doing it I would use a halter at least where you are liable to meet other dogs. It is easy with this to turn her head away from the other dog without a struggle. The key I think is to retrain acceptable behaviour in a situation you can control and to manage her in other situations so she doesn't get the reinforcement of growling and barking at the other dog. Don't try to do it all at once right away.
I would also recommend going to see Lynne Greaves at Dogs R Fun in Wakefield - email me for details if you need them. She is a terrific trainer and knows Maremmas more than most. She will have some ideas for dealing with this - and has 4 legged "trainers" to help!
As far as her behaviour changing with age/spaying - it might. Both our girls did chill out a bit after spaying. But I wouldn't rely on it. She is 10 months old - she won't chill with age for at least another 6-7 years! :)
Drop me an email privately if you want to meet up with the dogs sometime.
Cheers
Janet

I was very interested to read this posting as I have had the same problem with my 4 year old lab. (By the way, checked the pictures as didn't know about this breed and think they are beautiful dogs).
Anyway, my lab bitch has been lurching towards other dogs (especially GSD's) and growling when on lead. Last week my two were playing off the lead and I was chatting away to a friend completely oblivious to a large GSD who came up to check us out. My heart was in my mouth as my lab looked round, but she just had a sniff at the GSD and then I called her and she came back and completely ignored the other dog. I was gobsmacked, but very relieved. Her behaviour off lead, (and theGSD off lead) was complete opposite of on lead behaviour.
I now think that I transmit fear into her on lead as I always gather the lead up close when I see another dog and immediately start saying 'leave' etc just as I was taught in classes. Incidentally my dog has been very well socialised and would not harm a fly usually.
I don't know where this all leads to, but just thought I'd tell you of my experience.
Lorna

I think you are right - dogs pick up our worries when on the lead and are often a lot better off lead than we think they will be - but it can be difficult to take the plunge!

I remember when I got my first Maremma he was very dog aggressive on lead (he was 3 when I got him so I don't know his previous experience with other dogs). I was worried about letting him off and only did when there were no other big dogs about (he was fine with small dogs). One day a huge GSD male appeared from nowhere and before I knew it had met Bruno head on in the middle of an open field. I was about to rush in to retrieve my dog - afraid that he might attack the other but the owner was very laid back and told me not to worry, to let them work it out. They circled each other a few times hackles raised then each walked off and shook. I know that if I had interfered there would have been a fight. It is not always possible to stay out of it but it is sometimes the best policy!

"It is not always possible to stay out of it but it is sometimes the best policy!"

Tell me about it. It's good when you meet other dog walkers who realise that dogs are dogs or their dog knows dog language. What irritates the hell out of me is when their dog approaches my dog who will give out all kinds of signals to tell the dog to get lost - bares her teeth, raised hackles, the lot basically. It is only when she has gone through her whole repertoire that she will lunge and bark (no contact with the dog) and then I get shouted at for having a viscous, out of control dog. She never actually harms the dog, just makes the noise.

Maybe Holly shouldn't be like that around other dogs but I can see the confusion on her face as she is desperately trying to tell them she isn't interested.

Ramble over
Helen

Helen,
I completely agree with you!!! Chienne will do the same things to warn away another dog. The other owner then ignores it saying she's being "cute" or "my dog won't hurt a fly." Well, Chienne's learned that Large dogs will hurt her!
Especially when she's on leash from quite a few nasty incidences in her 7years of life. She has a long memory in this issue. I get tired of asking owners to please not let their dog drag him/her towards us just so it can jump on her. :rolleyes:

If she's offleash, she's very nice to other dogs just because she can move around easier and not be trapped against me. But I still am very leery about other dogs regardless of this. There is little predictability in other dogs' behavior during my experience here in this area. I just cannot tell anymore what will be fine or what will turn disasterous :(
toodles

This is one of those things that annoys me too. The other day we were out with Buddy and Jasper. They were on their leads out to full length - 6' - and a young couple with a middle aged Heinz approached - not on a lead. We pulled B & J in closer to us to maintain control - their dog laid it's ears out, lowered it's head and gave "that look". J & B became agitated and we were calming them - the couple made no attempt to hold their dog and walked by saying - "oh he's OK - he means no harm" - I was so cross. OK nothing happened - but my boys were under full control and what if they had madew a move - they would have been justified in doing so.

I ALWAYS pull my two in when we pass other people and especially when I see someone doing the same - it's only good manners - perhaps we shouldn't - then people wouldn't assume you're doing it because you ahve a nasty or uncontrollable dog.

rant over:D

Pam n the boys

Hi Janet

Just to say that your post was full of sense and a real pleasure to read, hope you don't mind me saying so :)

LIndsay