Please dont shout at me. Heres the situation. My girl Star is due to have pups in 2 weeks she is looking very well and blooming nicely.
My other girl Keatah is 8. She was mated in her last 2 seasons but missed. She was put to a gppd proved stud who shed had pups with before. The breeder was a good breeder been doing it for years. We all thought Keatah had just come to the end of her breeding days.
She was in season the week after Star which would make her around 6 weeks. Thing is she is showing signs of pregnancy. And she as got much bigger over the last few days.
Now this is not the ideal and Im not totally sure she as caught. She is a very fit dog and Im sure all will go great if she does have pups.
I can see the only problem is if we cant register the pups.
As anything happened like this to anyone before. Think I just reasuring all will be ok.
Thanks

:(

Hi Sharon i'm sure people say on hear it's okay as long as she has had a litter before the age of five and no more than three litters in a lifetime. is she of exceptional quality? what breed is she?
I'm sure you have a good reason for it, and i'm not being quick to judge:rolleyes:

Are you sure she was caught or could she be having a phantom in sympathy to your pregnant bitch????
Lea :)

You won't be able to register the puppies unless you got KC permisiion before the mating

From the KC site

>Q. Are there any restrictions that would prevent me from registering my puppies?

>A. Yes, if any of the following apply: ............<

>The dam has already reached the age of eight years at the date of whelping, or ...........................<. <

http://www.the-kennel-club.org.uk/forms/8yrapplicationform.pdf

Don't quite understand, I presume that you have a male at home and that she's been mated by him?

To have a litter KC registed from a bitch at 8 years of age you need prior agreement from the KC.  One of my girls had a litter at 8 years and 2 weeks, I think some people on here were glad that she did :d Or I hope so anyway but as I say I had to get prior agreement from the KC and from my vet.

It really depends upon what breed your dog is sa to whether she will be able to withstand a pregnancy at that age.

The mother of the litter that I had is 13 this year and is still extremely fit and healthy it didn't do her any harm but she is a breed that is fairly long living.

That's what i thought Perrodeagua it depends on breed

Have you had the stud dog living with you?

Is this the bitch that you applied to have an overaged litter from?  She must be towards 9 now?

By sharonb Date 04.06.05 23:34 GMT Hi all for those of you who replied to my question on this I have had the answer back from the KC. They have gave me permission to breed from Keatah. Thanks for all replies I had on this subject.

I see .....someone else "not advertising" puppies:rolleyes:

Would the sire be your dog who was 2" oversized at 7 months?  What size is your old bitch?

The same one who is shy and nervous and hides under the table?

Yes I think it COULD be a phantom. She is the same dog who was given permission to have pups. She isnt 9 untill end of July. THe dog which she will have caught to if any is 11 months old. He as had his eyes tested but not his hips yet.

And no sorry you got it wrong I am NOT advertising pups. I have people waiting for pups for 2-3 years now. That is why I havent mentioned the breed so as not to advertise.

And so what will happen if, once his hip score is done (which won't be for another month) and the results are back (which might not be for a further 8-9 weeks later) the hip score is bad?   What then?:rolleyes:

Well I dont know about that do I. What about all the thousands of dogs that dont have their hips done. I could always drowned the pups when they come IF there are any. Im trying to make the best out of the situation here.

I'm still not sure how the bitch managed to be with the stud dog when she was in season? Was he living with you?

JG - its the posters own puppy who may be the father, not the stud used on the other bitch. Presumably they were left together because the bitch didnt take the last twice she was mated. :(

Ah, that explains it. Presumably the OP didn't consider the many other reasons that the bitch didn't take before. :rolleyes:

We're not talking abaout the thousands of dogs that haven't had their hips done - you yourself said that "he hasn't had his hips done yet".  We're talking about you and your responsibilities.

Maybe you should think seriously about having her spayed now - you say she might be having a phantom - I think that the trauma of a spaying would be far less than expecting an 8 year old bitch to come safely through a pregnancy :(.

You yourself won't have the stress of keeping her and your young stud dog apart in the future then - after all, dogs don't go through the menopause :(

Margot

Sharon, on 18th April last year you posted "Hi Nikita I wasnt offended by your post it just raised a point I always wanted to make. Thanks everyone, Im well aware there are way too many bad breeders out there."

Please don't allow yourself to be put into this category.

Poor Bitch :( :( :(

Hi,

I can see in special circumstances why a mating could take place,
with the vets and K.C. advice. But! even if the bitch has had permission,
the sire is under 12months old, It would not suprise me if the pups could not be K.C. reg, so would be not good for showing or breeding only pets.

:rolleyes:Well whats done is done and now you should be thinking of finding good homes for the pups when they arrive and not be thinking too much about KC papers.Its a misstake and they do happen and now theres the dogs welfare to be thinking of.There are an abundance of dogs in rescues now waiting to be rehomed so it would be good if maybe you had a few friends wanting to take the pups on for companion dogs and pets.I dont know what else to say really as i dont know what breed you own.I know that certain breeds are having a really hard time in rescues trying to find homes,even pups.Staffies and GSds are rife at the moment and so are grayhounds so im hoping you do not have those particul;ar breeds.Labs and Westies are having a hard time too for some reason.I work closely with some rescues and try to help in any way i can. :)

Ok I can see here I have been judged and yes some here have made me feel bad. I love my dogs they are my world and they will only go to the best homes ever.
That is maybe why this happened in the 1st place. Keatah came into season unexpectedly at a tme when my mind was focused on my dying dog.
You see Sheena was very ill at the trime and dying. We lost her to cancer around that time and my head was alover the place.
Whatever the outcome I can assure you the pups will be loved and cared for as good as the next.

Can I just add Keatah is extremely fit. Maybe I shouldnt have asked for advice.
Thank you for those who pmd me reasurance and support . Its a pity people darent speak out but are scared by the few here who like to judge.

Sharon, you came on the board and asked for advice.   This you have been given.   It is your choice whether or not you take it.   As has been said before, on many occasions, this is not a "fluffy"board.   We tell it like it is.    As for the people who daren't speak out because they are scared by the few here who like to judge - well maybe, like others, they ought to have the courage of their convictions.

I was very sad to learn of the death of Sheena, and for that reason alone, I suggested that you consider spaying at this stage - you certainly don't need the heartbreak of losing another beloved dog.

Margot

THe thing is if Keatah is having pups spaying is not really advice. I know Keatah should be spayed. After the outcome thats the next thing. I wanted her spayed a few months back. But what with Sheena back and forth to the vets. It just wasnt the priority on my mind. We also didnt have the money at that time.
I know its my fualt Im not making excuses.

Spaying is still possible even if she is pregnant.     OK, you might not like the idea of destroying puppies.   But you could lose them - or Keatah - or both - in the birth process.   Keatah had puppies 3 and a half years ago when she was in her prime.   She is now almost twice as old as she was then, according to the information you have given us.   

Margot

Hi Sharon

I have been reading this thread over the past day and not been sure whether to reply.  I remember reading your thread when Sheena was ill and was so sorry it ended sadly.

I have very little knowledge of things "KC", but this is what I wondered:

1.  Can you get your vet to confirm whether or not Keatah is pregnant?  Once you know whether or not this is a real pregnancy, you will at least know which set of issues you have to deal with.  It might be a phantom brought on by Star's pregnancy and the stresses you will all have been under while Sheena was ill.

2.  If the KC gave you permission to breed from Keatah last June, is this permission still "valid"?  How long does it last for? 

3.  Do the KC have any age restrictions on the sire?

If the KC permission is still valid and there is no problem with the dad being under 1 year, then registration shouldn't be a problem, should it?  Is it worth contacting the KC for their advice on this all?  It is after all their registration scheme and they should be the experts.

If Keatah is pregnant, then if the KC won't allow them to be registered, hopefully you will be able to find the puppies good pet homes.  There is no shame in a puppy going to a good pet home.  My own Border Collie quite happily slobs around in our "pet home". 

Good luck, Sharon, whatever way things turn out.  :)

Thank you Daisygirl. Keatah as had 1 litter of pups before 3 and half years ago.
They came from a good line fantastic looking pups. They all went to pet homes. Iam still intouch with all the pups and I couldnt have picked better homes.
I thin I will get intouch with the Kennel club. In all honesty Im more bothered about the pups going to loving homes than weather they are registered or not.

Oh no I couldnt do that. If shes having pups theyl be 6 weeks gone now. As ive said before she is an extremely fit dog. Honestly if you was to see her youd think she was aged about 3. I know dogs that are her age and not as fit and gone on to have pups.
Dont worry she will be under constant watch and the 1st sign of problems Il be straight at the vets.

Whats done is done Sharon and dont beat yourself up about it,its just not worth it.Im so sorry to hear about your other dog.I cant imagine how you must have felt or how you are feeling now.As i have mentioned before,the priority is finding good loving homes for the pups then making sure that mum is fine and spayed.You are going to have your work cut out.From what i hear its hard enough to have pups anyway let alone the extra care needed with an older dog.Good luck and best wishes to you and yours.The pups will still be wonderful regardless of KC papers.
Regards,
Liz and the motley crew,
x x x x

Can you make proper arrangements to keep both litters apart?   There will only be about 2 weeks between them, won't there?   Bitches have been known to attack and kill the litter of another bitch - so you MUST keep them well apart.

Hi Sharon
I hope that all goes well for you and your bitch. 
I can see lots of comments have been raised. 
Good luck. I must say I dont agree with mating an old girl, but its done, and just enjoy her last litter.
Rachel

I don't agree with mating an 8 year old bitch with a young, oversized, not hip scored dog in a breed with a known problem, but I sincerely hope that your old girl is OK.  I mated a 6.5 year old bitch last year for her last litter and she really struggled, both with the whelping and rearing compared with the litter that she'd had 2 years before.  I wouldn't do it again.
I think that the responsible thing to do, both for your bitch and the sake of the potential new puppy owners, who have no idea of what they're taking on, is to have your bitch spayed now, however personally distasteful you may find it.
I wouldn't want to have a baby at 56 years old and wouldn't subject one of my bitches to do it either.

Can I just add something here. Bailey does not have a PROBLEM. When he was younger he was shy and timid. He was a young pup how many children are shy with strangers.
Iam fed up with hearing this mentioned. He is a normal well balanced dog maybe not as friendly as my 2 girls who are over friendly.
Then again you all have such perfect dogs and always get it so right,
Thank you so much to those who have not been judgementle.
I will keep you posted on the outcome.
And yes both Keatah and Star will be kept apart.

I'm not intending to be nasty, Sharon, but I'm sure you'll agree that sound temperament is vital, especially in a large breed of dog that is still recovering from its phase of being the 'devil-dog' some time ago, when it was seen as being 'hard' and was over-produced by people wanting to make a quick buck. Later the fashion changed to rottweilers, then dobermanns, then pitbulls; at one time it looked as though akitas would be next. So you can see that it's essential for the breed as a whole to ensure that only sound, steady temperament is perpetuated, as a shy, timid dog (I have one - he'll never be bred from) is often the one that eventually bites.

I sincerely wish you luck.

Jeangenie. My dogs aren't Akitas. I did have an Akita. No my other 3 are a different breed.

I know your dags aren't akitas. I was simply pointing out that many breeds go through a 'fashionable' phase, and get an generally unwarranted reputation for being 'dodgy'. It's then left to reputable breeders to try to pick up the pieces, and ensure that only the finest specimens are bred from. Unfortunately it takes very many decades for the reputation to recover - it's very much a case of "Give a dog a bad name and hang him" - GSDs (for example) still haven't totally recovered from their 'tough guy' image from the 1960s, and are mistrusted and actually feared by many people.

How right you are about GSDs.What really anoys me is that my two GSDs love kids and when i take them on a school run or a club pick up i am amazed at the amount of kids that come running to stroke the dogs and the parents that shout COME AWAY FROM THAT NASTY DOG !!!!!!!!!!! It really makes me mad as Guiness,although big,has a big heart to match.

I have a bitch here who is 10 days short of her 8th bday who had 9 puppies 2 months ago{not advertising as they are all sold!:rolleyes:} this was her 3rd and last litter and I can honestly say she has always been a fantastic mother but she excelled in motherhood this time.

With regards to hip-scoring, yes it MUST be done if you are going to breed but i think too much importance goes into the hip scores than it does temprement, do you breed from a bitch with a bad temprement who has  a score of say 1.1 or from a bitch with a score of 10.10 with a fantastic temprement.

I had a litter some years ago from a bitch and dog with very good scores and the whole litter had bad hips yet her first litter sired from different dog had all good hips.

Accidents happen and in all the years I have had dogs I had one accident that was my fault, luckily the bitch didnt get pregnant

Hi Amberscade,
I do agree with you, temprement is the most important thing. Its
no good having an excellent hip score bitch or dog, that has to be p.t.s.
because they are agressive.
I have a friend who has a GS who has parents with a good hip score,
on the Pedg. But! she is only 4yrs old and her back legs are going,
she finds it hard to wee or poo on bad days. Its just time.
So nothing is guaranteed.
Honesty is a breath of fresh air
Regards
Denese

A good breeder should only breed if all relevant health tests are done and the dog and bitch are both of excellent temperment. Not one or the other ;)

And if the dog and bitch compliment each other, rather than "be handy"