I have a lovely Malamute (my third) nearly 11 months old. He is an absolute darling when alone, being very obedient then (well, as near to that as a Mal can get!) but as soon as we get into company - training club, shows etc, he becomes almost unmanageable with excitement. He changes into a very vocal kangaroo. I tried Valerian compound but he went even more loopy on that. He is not aggressive in any way, is very friendly to other dogs, just hyper excited. Any suggestions on how to make him calmer? I had hoped that by now he would be used to meeting other dogs as he has been taken to training classes since 12 weeks old!

Hello Jean

May I introduce you to my Malamute puppy? His name is Hudson , he is 7 months old and his nickname on here has always been The Thug

:D

He sounds like he is the same as yours....maniacal on meeting or seeing other dogs! Mind you ..Thuggy is also like that when anyone comes to the house *sigh*. He has the boredom threshold of a gnat ....about 2 seconds of inactivity whilst we are out and he begins to whine , then yowl and leap about. I am told that it is partly due to him being a teenager ........roll on the 20's then!

:)

Melody

Jean, what sex were your other Mals. Ja:)kie

Hi Jackie H,

My other two Mals were bitches and were easy to train, although they both had their moments! My first one, was from Janet Edmonds' (as she was then) 'L' litter born in quarantine, and the second was out of another bitch from the same litter by Janet's superb dog Kash.

Hello Jean,

When someone is invited into your home, friend or stranger, does he react strongly to them, barking and/or pushing himself forward. When you are out (on lead), and you stop to speak to someone, does he make himself known too? (I am not meaning in the aggressive sense, just 'in your face' so to speak)!!

Regards,
Denise.

Melody,

I am so glad someone else has a thug! It is so comforting.... But isn't it embarrassing? Soon I won't be able to have the excuse of 'He's only a puupy still'!

Jean

Yes it is embarassing :D The worst of it all is that people LOOK at you as though you have no control (well ..actually ..I s'pose we dont to a certain degree :D )

My email address is in my profile Jean , do write ...we have quite a large Mal clique who all seem to write to each other , I have photoes of LOADS of Mals from this sight .

Jacquie (who replied to your question and has the Myatuk affix) is the breeder of my Thug (Thanks Jaquie :D ) as well as the pups of Lou , Maid Marion and Jane.

Hudson has this habit of giving us the *Hairy eyeball* just before barking defiantley in your face , or racing around the house and garden , or generally being Thuggish :D

Melody

Denise,

Chewi loves to meet people, as all Mals do. I take him down our shopping centre quite often and he matches his behaviour to the people he meets. With disabled/wheelchairs, babies and small shy children he is very gentle and quiet, with rowdy kids he is rowdy too. The only thing is he does like to announce his presence vocally. He is more 'in your face' when we have visitors at home until the novelty wears off, which can take some time. He is at his worst when we meet other people with dogs, although I have been socialising him since 12 weeks old. The best thing about his behaviour is that as yet he doesn't jump up on people, and I have no intention of him starting that, not at his size.
He is not aggressive to other dogs at all, and even lets them in the house and play with his toys.

Jean

Hi Jean,
I was saying to Jacquie last week that people at dog shows must think that Mal owners only take their dogs out of the house for an occasional trip to a show. They all pull their owners around the showground as if they have never been outside before (only the pups though). She assured me though that things change as they get older so I can only live in hope of a day that our Mal behaves herself :) The more I take Kiera out the more confident and rowdy she becomes.

Jean, from what I can glean from this information, it sounds to me like your dog is full of his own importance, i.e. at every opportunity he is saying "me, me, me". He also wants to know what everyone is doing and why. He is in charge of himself. Not his fault, you have unwittingly given him too much control, and not made yourself in his eyes more important than him!

Only recently, I visited someone with the same problem. She did not realise how she had unfortunately raised the dog's status.

I would assume he does not settle peacefully indoors for very long, always coming and going, perhaps even following you around.

If someone comes in, he becomes difficult to manage, and almost deaf to your commands.

Out of interest, if you are doing Obedience with him, what are his formal Recalls like? I would guess that when he returns and sits in front, he does not look up at you, if he does and you praise him, he quickly looks away again. More likely he just keeps his nose level with your body and maybe even pokes you!

Does he respond more if you 'ask' him in a 'pretty please fashion' rather than a firm command?

Denise.

And ..........?

:)

Shame your email address isn't in your profile Denise :(

Melody

Hello Melody,

Recognising that none of us are actually meeting these dogs and handlers, I was looking to confirm with Jean that this was in my opinion the reason for her dog's behaviour, and helping to establish my reasoning by giving further suggested behaviours that the dog would be displaying.

With regards,
Denise.

Jean, forgot to add, if you have a Partner, and one of you has the dog on the lead, and the other one then walks in another direction, does your dog object to this, pulling, constantly looking back, stopping, making it difficult for the other Partner to walk on comfortably with the dog? (I would guess the answer to this is also Yes)!

Denise.

Yes here .....Hudson does that

This is like 20 questions

:)

Melody

Hi Melody,

I had to smile at your Post. At least you now know the problem, - your dog is in control of him/herself, and does not have sufficient respect towards you.

Sadly, folk consider 'firm handling' as saying "NO" firmly and meaning it, or this business of walking through doors first, eating first, not allowing on furniture etc etc.

There is so much more. May I suggest you find a very good Obedience Instructor, (easier said than done I know, but NOT treat training)! This is one of those occasions when I prefer to pay a home visit, in order to indicate the problem areas, guide and demonstrate. Even the dog looking at the Owner with a 'hard eye' goes unnoticed at times. In the meantime, be stronger and firmer with your dog, think what you want your dog to do and endeavour to ensure he does it. Teach him to leave a room when told (with the door remaining open). Stop 'asking' him start giving 'commands'.

People sadly make excuses for a dog's poor behaviour. Firstly a dog behaves the way you allow it to, whether intentional or not. We then like to make excuses for them, i.e. nervous, protective, adolescent, etc. Stop 'putting up' with unwanted behaviour let him realise you are displeased in no uncertain terms.

(Melody, is your dog trustworthy around the home when you are there, but is always naughty when you leave the house)!!!

Start showing some authority Melody (and bin those treats)!

Denise

Denise ..the trouble is you get SO many different bits of advice :( Spoke to an Obedience trainer the other day who said as Hudson is still a baby and very food orientated we should ALWAYS use treats ....now you say something different.

I have always been firm (strict even) with H ..no going on furniture , we always eat first , we say hello to the family before Hudson , he is made to go OUT! of a room (usually kitchen) when told. He IS a teenager at the moment ..no excuses ...he just is ..and he is definitely trying it on ...but he does exhibit a lot of the things you are talking about. He panics when someone walks away from the pack , he is naughty when left on his own (but then it seems as though most Malamutes are *shrug*) I have caught him giving me the hairy eyeball but I always look him in the eye ...back atcha son! :)

Some trainers have said to ignore bad behaviour and reward good behaviour...

ARGHH!

:)

By the way ..you can visit me at home ANYTIME :D :D

Melody

Melody,

Without wishing to cause a war regarding the use of treats, it is the treat training and phlosophy that goes with it, that quite frankly is causing so many problems both for dogs and handlers!

The methods you mentioned are the world renowned (in every book) ways of helping to elevate the Owner's position. They are fine - make no mistake, but dogs are far far cleverer than that.

How do I know that your dog (and possibly Jean's) behaves in the manner I indicated? - Because these are the issues and displays of dogs in control.

This suggestion of ignoring bad behaviour and only rewarding good - quite frankly leaves me speachless - WHY????? (If you found your child drawing with ink on the wall paper - are you going to ignore it, and wait until the child is sitting reading a book and being good and then reward her? What do you think she would have learned from that)?

I can only assume that such advice to ignore bad behaviour is given simply because these Trainers/Instructors do not know what to do anyway!

There are a couple of methods you can do for authority training, and a few things I would like to speak to you about re: treats, but as I do prefer to help folk in areas such as this person to person (either privately or at a Club, you meet the handler and dog that way), may I therefore email you privately?

Regards,
Denise.

Denise,
Perhaps you could share with all of us your knowledge of what to do in instances of bad behaviour :)

Jacquie,

Upon reflection, it is one thing giving advice on how to teach Retrieve, or the best way to housetrain, how to prevent a dog from snatching etc. BUT, more intracate and advanced behaviours are simply NOT for the Internet. We do not know the people, their dogs, their relationships. We can only 'reach them' by the power of the written word, which sadly is very inadequate.

When I consider a new Beginners Class, and teaching them to understand dogs, and demonstrating an exercise, and yet still folk NEED help (because they did not understand properly or their attempts needed some 'fine tuning' in order to get it right)! - It really is impossible to therefore try to convey specialised help on the Internet.

That was my intention anyway, to simply bring the reason for the problem to the attention of Jean and Melody. Afterall if you know what the illness is, you then know what you are dealing with, rather than turning in ever decreasing circles!

Let's be fair even the simple act of saying "NO" - I remember one very nice lady, who initially had difficulty showing ANY kind of authority with her dog, including "NO". On this occasion I placed a biscuit on the floor and told her to use the command of NO to stop the dog from touching it. She said "No" so nicely, and the dog ignored her. The second time, I told her to say NO like she really mean't it! She did try, but again the dog ignored her (because her mouth said No firmly, but her heart did not believe it). On the last time, I put the biscuit down, looked her in the eye, and told her it was poison! "NO" she demanded, with feeling, and the dog responded. She almost fell over laughing, but she got the message, and her dog began listening to her.

Now something as SIMPLE as that, would not be obvious on the Internet would it?

The problem is two ENTIRELY different training methods and attitude. How can you cram all the information necessary to understand certain exercises in one simple Post?

That is also why I only correspond with folk who seek advice, that I feel the need to reply to, and to those who ask me direct questions, I am not looking to argue with general comments made. (Ask me directly or I will not consider the comment is for me). If I am asked something, I will reply, whether it is well received by others or not, and I will remain polite.

With all best intentions,
and happy training.
Denise.

Equally, people have to learn control in stages. Treat training and authority training are completely different. The two do not mix. Therefore, you need to know both your clients (handler and dog), in order to guide them along.

Please do email me Denise ...my address is in my profile

But remember ..Malamutes are notoriously independant ...it is a breed trait after all . ;)

Melody

Hi Melody

If you don't mind my humble opinion, your current trainer sounds great and very understanding of your breed :)

Many trainers of the old school dislike reward based training because they think the dog should jolly well do what it is told and that is that. Also, because they think the owner has to rely on treats forever :D Well, this is just showing really that they don't understand the way reward based training works. As long as you are shown how to wean off treats, there is no problem:)

Top obedience trainers such as Kay Laurence use treats/clickers/toys, (not all do, but I am just explaining that those who do use rewards get very good results). Assistance dogs, such as those from Canine Partners of Independence, and Support Dogs, who have to be very highly trained, simply could NOT be trained by the old methods because the most important thing is the relationsihp with their owner.

These dogs actually have to learn to put their owners in a recovery postion, and sometimes reallly use their initiave. They are all reward trained to a very high standard and have to be, as their owners lives literally do depend on their dogs.

All of the handlers in our Working Trials and Agility groups use reward based methods, treats and toys, and have great success. My little bitch (from a completely nutty breed) has just completed successfully her Bronze and Silver KEnnel Club Good Citizens. So please don't think that just because one person says treat is wrong, it IS wrong.

I do feel one does have to take into account what the animal is like, hormones etc. My Banya was doing brilliantly in agility, yet when she was just a week pre-season could NOT concentrate and we made a real hash of it all for 4 weeks.

I could have shouted at her, forced her, and insisted :(, but why? That would have been me being a bully. She was well and truly hormonal. Exactly the same as plenty of us women get :) The 4th week she was back on track and right as rain. We were all happy, end of story.

It is not making excuses to say Hudson is a baby - he IS!!! :) and sounds gorgeous :)

Ignoring bad (but using distraction if say, pup is chewing) and rewarding good does work - if done properlly. Lots of owners can't ignore the bad and get confused and blame the method. I have used this to great advantage. There will be times in all training methods when you tear your hair out in despair,<g>, but thats just how it is, imho :)

Almost All pups are naughty when left alone; they need struffed kongs and all sorts and even then may still chew something or wreck the house. Use Vicks or a bitter spray such as bitter apple to put them off cherished items of furniture.

If you do want to go the way of packleadership, read John Fisher's books available from ww.crosskeysbooks.com If you do all he suggests, and the dog is still "naughty", then it is not pack leadership which is the problem, as it cannot be..... it is just down to training etc. A lot of people say if a dog is problematic it is down to the owner not being strict enough. Hmmm, really....

HOwever even John Fisher, who was a great exponent of the family pack theory, changed his mind before he sadly died a few years ago.

I do wish you lots of luck. It can be very confusing out there.....but please dont resort to being too harsh with your Hudson as some trainers may suggest. Believe me, in the long run, it ruins the relationship :(.

Lots of luck
Lindsay

:)

Thanks Lindsey ...all sound advice .

I do not have issues with Hudson with obedience as such ..he IS a puppy and he IS a Malamute , obedience is not something that they seem to take to.....recall ?? HA! :)

However , I would like him to regard the family as above him in status ...I have a feeling that he thinks *I* am the boss and he is 2nd in command at the moment. Hubby works away all week and is home weekends ...and I think therein lies one of the problems.

I look forward to hearing from Denise ...after all , the treat training isn't working ...Hudson just goes bananas trying to get at the treats and then will not do something if you have an empty hand ;) He isn't daft *g*

Melody

I would also like to add that my GSD is excellent at obedience. He listens to our every word. I have tried training my mal and oh what a laugh... She mastered sit, stay, down, paw, counting, roll over all of the usual tricks but tends to forget them VERY quickly lol. She leaves the room when told, is outstanding with my daughter, has no aggression in her body but when she goes to a dog show she goes nuts (as seen Saturday Jacquie ;) ) Mals just seem to have their funny traits until they are 12 - 18 months and then they calm down. Read any book on the breed and it will tell you the same things about them. I have also kept Labs, BCs, a dobe, even a scottie and they are all soooo different to a Mal. I agree with you on the issue of not ignoring bad behaviour but that doesn't have to mean hitting a dog. I only have to say to either of mine "what have you done" and their ears go flat to their heads and they roll over grovelling. What I guess that I'm trying to say is I don't believe that I have a dominance problem with my dogs but find that Mals aren't your average breed.

HI Melody

If you get John Fisher's book, I think the one I am thinking of is "Think dog", (as he did write several) you will know wxaclty what to do, and, more important, why you are doing it. (As I find that always helps!!! :D )

I suppose is hubby is away all week, your Mal may even regard him as a visitor and not a family member? I hope that doesn't sound too awful and you know what i mean.

Re the treat training, why not have a word with your trainer? He/she should be able to show you what to do when Hudson goes bananas <g> A lot of dogs do go through this stage and it is part of the enthusiasm which I find so appealing .....

Just a suggestion, but when he goes bananas position yourself so he can't get the treat, give hima comand and wait him out. just wait him out, after one firm command, no more. He will (if he was listening!) eventually realise he gets nothing unless he does as you ask.

I tend to use a no-reward marker such as "ah-ah" said fairly sharply, to help the dog cotton on.

If he will only do stuff for treats - show him the treat, give command, he does it, give treat. repeat a few times.Then, hide treat, give command, he will probably not comply :D - so, show him the treat - hey HUdson, you daft dog, loook what you missed!!! don't give it to him though :)

It takes a few goes, but he will offer different behaviours, and then will eventually offer the one you commanded :) Then of course you can reward him with the treat. He will soon start to listen and pay attention as he realises he has to really use his noddle and work for the treats.

One of the most frustrating things i find about email is that it is so easy to write stuff down, but it would be so much better to actually be able to physically be with people and show them!

Anyway as you say, Hudson isn't daft, and I wish you luck and fun with him :)

Lindsay

Melody, (and anyone else who may be interested),

I am responding to a Post made by Lindsay, which I felt necessary. Treat training is NOT obedience. Treat training is teaching the dog to perform a response/exercise with a reward. The dog may comply for his own benefit, i.e. food. Consider this from the dog's view point. You stand in front of him, and ask him to do something, with the offer and knowledge of a reward. You are already indicating your own lack of confidence in yourself to achieve the response without the aid of a bargaining gesture, i.e. "Please do this, and I will give you something tasty". So the dog responds, but who for? Certainly not you! - he is responding for that tasty morsel in your hand, isn't that what he is actually looking for or at? He is not looking at you.

On the subject of 'paying attention', one of the advanced exercises that I teach the Intermediate Class, is with the dog in the heel position, command him to "Watch me", and then look ahead, without looking at or touching the dog, while the dog remains watching the handler. Then someone calls the dog by name, but the dog does not look away, because he is under instruction by the handler, and will only look away when praised and told to by the handler. (This is of course an advanced 'Watch' exercise, because we are always looking to improve and stretch the dogs learning and obeying capabilities).

Obedience is the dog obeying a command because he has been told to. Therefore, learning to acknowledge that the handler is a very important person in the eyes of the dog, someone to respect - a Pack Leader! The art is then guiding him to complete an exercise because the handler as said so. The only reward is the praise from the handler. In other words authority, control and praise.

The idea of eventually 'weaning' a dog off of treats - but onto WHAT?!! The handler/Owner has already established lack of authority with the dog. So the dog may perform the exercise (which he has learnt) if he wishes to, (because as far as he is concerned he has a choice)! His response will not be consistent - why should it! - It is not his fault that your have taught him to respond for his own benefit and choice. Equally, problems will occur, i.e. not coming when called, lead walking problems, general behaviour problems too numerous to list.

In terms of 'formal obedience' problem areas will then be lack of precision, breaking stays, SLOW recalls, dog not looking up at Owner, inaccurate and inattention to heelwork, poor retrieve, keeping the dogs attention, slow sits and downs. I could go on and on. ALSO, most handlers will notice that these dogs will work BETTER OFF LEAD -Again, this is a dog working for himself!

The Treat Training fraternity like to suggest that Trainers such as myself batter and bully our dogs - Can anyone imagine that someone would be so dedicated to the Dog World if they did not love and respect dogs, enjoy their company and be fascinated by their mental powers? Please also show some respect for the many handlers who train under us, they DO love and care about their dogs.

'Some' Trainers, have now lost the ability to correct problems associated with training, they simply do not know how (without food)! Perhaps they never did. I have seen dogs who bark at people for no apparent reason, and previous trainers have suggested the dog is nervous or afraid, not sufficiently socialised, being protective, the list goes on!!!

At my Club, when I call one of my dogs out to demonstrate a certain exercise, he or she rushes over with clear enthusiasm, working with precision and enjoying the process. A dog unhappy and miserable will not work well, and that is no pleasure for either dog or handler. How many Trainers even have their own dogs at their Club to demonstrate with? If they do, they are generally tethered in some way. Is that obedience? My dogs and those I teach are taught the 'Control Down', i.e. you tell the dog to lay down where you require (without the command Stay), and the dog settles comfortably until indicated to move. Mine sometimes have forty winks!

Yes, Hudson is just a youngster, I naturally would not dispute that, BUT that is no excuse for his behaviour. However, the result of this behaviour is down to the Owner. Dogs constantly need to challenge for position (Dog Pack mentality), and some more than others. This will manifest itself by way of: the obvious grumbling and growling, being difficult to manage, ignoring the Owner, pulling on the lead, not paying attention, being somewhat hyper needing to be alert (because someone has to be in-charge)! Having an attitude of "Who do you think you are" / "You can wait" / "I will respond, but in my own time" / etc. If you have control and authority over your dog, these areas will not occur. The dog will recognise you as the undoubted Pack Leader, he will become very relaxed and attentive knowing he can rely and put his trust in you, and has nothing to prove about his own status.

The 'accepted' notion that all young dogs are naughty when left alone to the degree that they may "wreck the house" - is ludicrous. If they do not cause damage when you are there, ask yourself why they should cause damage when you are away? Boredom? - No, perhaps that was the reason for "stuffed kongs and all sorts". Strange that during the night they are ok, they are even ok if you are not actually interacting with them, so why only when you are not there? A puppy of course needs to learn to be on his own and be confident at being on his own. So this must be taught to the young puppy. Once you then have a young adolescent who knows he is being extremely naughty, surely 'these Trainers' understand the reason - don't they? Or is their only answer 'adolescence' and using these stuffed kongs (or is this even a reward) - I shudder to think!

Again, I will say that the idea of 'ignoring bad behaviour' is teaching your dog what? - That you don't mind? Or it does not matter!! Not dealing with a problem does not help the dog! Maybe it is because 'these Trainers' do not know how to overcome the problems presented to them!!!

If you are ever (as suggested in the Post referred to) in the position of "tearing your hair out in despair" - contact your Trainer IMMEDIATELY. If he or she cannot advise you how to correct your situation, then change your Trainer! - That is equally what he/she is there for - the knowledge of a dogs behaviour and psychology.

Why does it also seem that more Owners are experiencing behaviour problems with their dogs? Dogs have not become more dominant - dogs are dogs and always have been. However, it is the Owners who have sadly become less authoritive.

I will end by saying that 'Obedience' is not simply the training exercises that we do with the dogs, it is more importantly what happens or (does not happen) in the Home. - That is where the control and authority is lacking.

Denise.

:)

I was actually waiting for your email ...I have responded to both you and Lindsay ..as I think you both have valuable if different points of view.

You say :

If you have control and authority over your dog, these areas will not occur. The dog will recognise you as the undoubted Pack Leader, he will become very relaxed and attentive knowing he can rely and put his trust in you, and has nothing to prove about his own status.

Am I supposed to know how to do this intuitively? Therein lies the problem you see .....?

Ah well

:)

Melody

Melody,

I have just read your Post before having my dinner. Sadly, Poppet, the difficulty is the choice of methods, and finding a good Instructor. My comments are based on authority training, not treat training! - and therein lies the problem!

I am always willing to help someone with dog related problems. However, as you probably read in a recent Post to Jacquie, it really is very difficult to try and train or convey something intracate by way of the 'written word' (I think even Lindsay agrees with this)! Remember my comments on learning to even say "NO"!

However, I will suggest a couple of things to help you. Remember though that Treat training and Authority training DO NOT MIX. Very similar to following a recipe using metric and imperial.

So, if you are prepared to ditch those treats (just while you follow my suggestions)!!! Then please answer the following queries:-

Will your dog return from the garden - the FIRST TIME you call him EVERY TIME?

What type of collar does he wear?

Can you make him lie down? How long does he stay down?

Are you able to send him out of a room (but with the door remaining open) and he does not enter again until you tell him he can?

Does he follow you around the house?

When he asks to go into the garden, and you open the back door, does he push and rush through?

Does he press you for attention?

Does he jump up at YOU?

I already know his behaviour regarding other issues, from your replies to my other Posts on this subject.

Now try this, call him to you, and have him sit in front of you, then stroke his head gently, and say "Good Boy". Does he almost lean towards you with attention on your face nice and calmly, or does he lean away, or move his head to the side very obviously, or move right away from you?

I will leave this with you while I have my dinner, and I will return and email you.

Kind regards,
Denise.

Poppet??????
(ducking for cover and waiting for fallout)

Melody is a poppet, aren't you poppet :D

Poppet?

Oh dear oh dear ...I see a trip to dictionary.com :)

Poppet:

A poppet valve.
Nautical.
A small wooden strip on a gunwale that forms or supports an oarlock.
One of the beams of a launching cradle supporting a ship's hull.
Chiefly British. A darling.
[Middle English popet, small child, doll, puppet. See puppet.]

Hmmm ..now which shall I choose?

Oh dear oh dear .......a quandry now .....

:D

lol@Leigh (Bad woman!)

Melody

.. ;-)

Gotta give her credit, at least she didn't use "dearie" ;) ;) :D :D :D :D

Denise

I have decided not to follow up this discussion . I feel my breeder and other Malamute people probably have more experience dealing with the breed than yourself.

I find being called a *poppet* on a public access board slightly strange :) As I am neither your darling or a doll I find the word used quite peculiar. It is a word normally used to a child or someone rather simple ...neither of which applies to me I'm afraid.

Thank you for your words , I appreciate the interest shown and wish you well

Melody - showing (as Leigh will know) enormous restraint

:D

Are you coming down to Richmond with 'Thug' Melody?

Fiona
x x x

Don't think it is very likely Fiona ...due to hubbys work we have been very limited to what we can do this year ...fingers crossed that next year is better :)

Melody
XX

What a shame :(

I won't be showing there next year as the plan is I'll be suffering from Naomi's affliction and won't be able to bend down properly :D

Hopefully we'll get to meet up sometime soon :)

Fiona
x x x

Email sent Fi

;)

Melody

Melody,

My apologies, I sincerely did not mean any offence by my comment. Again, sadly, proof of the difficulties in respect of the 'written word'.

However, I equally respect anyone's decision of choice. In fact I always encourage first time callers to our Club, to go and visit a couple more, in order that they can understand the differences involved in training methods, and can therefore make their own personal conclusions - Training is for life and the decision one makes is extremely important.

I do wish you well,
Denise.

No problem

:)

Melody

Very well said honey and with enormous restraint !!!!!!! (honey is ok coming from ME isn't it :p) :D :D

As someone who's terrible about calling people "mate" and "darling" etc, I feel a bit guilty when we get into these kinds of things, but mine I'm afraid is kind of London Colloquial and I never mean anything by it :D :D Having said that, i do tend to use them more with people I have had a "bit" of contact with (one way or another !!!!!!!!) and some unfortuntaely sound more condescending than others.

Beth (spreading peace and love today, due to having bad day even before 9am !!!!!) :)

I think it is the connotations of the word to be honest ...mate , duck , chuck and love are all dialect terms aren't they. Whereas dearie and poppet are not (as far as I know but I could be wrong ...it has been known ;) ) As you say , it is more usual to use those terms with someone you are on familiar terms with ...mate duck chuck etc don't sound condescending either (possibly because we are used to them?)

I take your peace n love and offer up harmony and understanding :D

Melody - At least no one has yet called me sausage or chicken - things I call my children :D

HI Denise

I feel I need to make something clear about "treat training."

You discuss the idea of dogs being weaned off treats and onto what .....:)

The whole point is that at the end of the day a dog taught by a reward based method does of course do what is asked when treats are not available.

Otherwise how do people whose lives depend on a dog trained in this way (Assistance dogs) trust their dog with their life? They certainly don't have a treat in their hand when they are lying unconscious on the floor!!!

The dog trained motivationally eventually learns to do what it is asked, reliably, because it loves to do it, has learnt the behaviour asked for is rewarding to do IN ITSELF :), and has fun doing it. I know of all sorts of people, in all walks of dog life, who use these methods very successfully. So they DO work. But not every body goes beyond the first few steps.Often they don't need to.

The post i made which mentioned weaning dogs off treats was just a first step.

I personally use toys much more than food treats now, and you should see my young bitch do a Sendaway :) And yes, we are doing it without food treats - but hey, we do use a clicker!!! :)

<<You are already indicating your own lack of confidence in yourself to achieve the desired response without the aid of a bargaining gesture...>>>

Ah no, that.s not what it is all about. He he he....I have such confidence that I know that at the end of the day we will do well .....because i have great pride in my methods and a pride in my nutty little dog :) And by "do well" I don't necessarly mean winning and rosettes and glory - oh no - i mean a quieter satisfaction :).

I don't use the Pack Leader method myself....not because dont understand it, but because I have used it in the past and feel that other ways suit me best and get better results for me. Pack Leader methods tend to sometimes make a dog's inappropriate behaviour down to dominance, which is a shame because it precludes so much that may be happening on other levels.

<<<..other problems will occur....not coming when called, lead walking problems...>>>

Well Denise, could you reach a dog to walk to heel in a highly motivated fashion without the use of a choke chain? I can,and so can others who reward train - and no, I don't have a trail of treats next to me :) :D

I would say my Terv has an extremely good/immediate recall - and an excellent Leave It - she leaves deer she has put up 5 ft in front of her, no food treat in sight :) And she will come away from other dogs in the park with one word. All trained with my preferred method :).So your belief that "other problems will occur" is - well, misguided perhaps.

<<<problem areas will ..be..lack of precision, breaking stays, SLOW recalls, dog not looking up at owner, inaccurate and inattention to heelwork, poor retrieve,keeping the dog's attention, slow sits and downs...>>>

He he he ....I have seen exactly the opposite, you see, in everything you mention. And there is nothing slow about my dog :)
I would probably agree with the inaccurate heelwork, becaues I don't like the velcro look - and because Working Trials heelwork is very practical, we may have to negotiate cowpats; but we can all do it if we ask, in our group.

<<The Treat Training fraternity like to suggest that Trainers such as myself batter and bully>>

Hmmm - well what do you call whacking a dog on the nose for (to the dog) no reason? It's not training.

Of course the dog will be in awe - it is watching an unpredictable owner. Sorry, but i will always stick to my guns on this one. I was sickened by that post :(

You have written an awful lot more Denise, which i feel will be boring to others if I reply, because my post is getting long :)

My current dog didn't wreck the house when a pup/youngster, she would very sweetly wait for me to return after having made a nest on the big sofa....but i have had dogs who have wrecked the house....and they were basically bored and it was my fault. My problem, not theirs. You cannot expect working bred dogs to just sit and twiddle their paws all day.

<<,dogs constantly need to be challenging for position>>>

No they don't! did you know that the work on which a lot of that notion was based was done on captive wolf packs - not dog packs, and not wolves in a natural environment. There is so much more knowledge now about dog behaviour, done on DOG packs. REad "Dogs" by Coppinger. Great book - but very scary if you don't like what he says!!!

<<not dealing with a problem does not help the dog>>>

...or the owner! The problem IS dealt with, but in a more subtle way :). And it wont work if th e owner ignores the instructions to be totally consistent. But then that is not a problem with the method, is it? One part of it is that if the dog is distracted when up to mischief, it just never gets in to the habit of it. (Hard though for pups left alone while owners are at work).

We have to bear in mind too, that one reason reward based training started was because mmost people don't want to compete in obedience, or WT's, or whatever....they just want a nice family dog. They dont want a formal recall, or velcro heelwork - but they do want a dog who will be well behaved generally, and who will come back to them whilst in the park/forest. If owners are taught reward based methods WELL, this is what they will get.

With all methods there are rights and wrongs, and hiccups, that goes for reward based methods too :) But at the end of the day it is always up to the handler to dedicate to training or not.

We worked extremely hard for the Good Citizens - my bitch finds distractions hard - and this is a genetic hard wiring for her breed, NOT bad behaviour or a training problem. Often, Goldies, BC's, etc are either more relaxed or genetically bred to focus on owner. She is also only 14 months, and I am exceptionally proud she gained her Silver because she had the huge distractoin of her doggy friend arriving in the car park, which she could see, and he was let off for a play, whilst she was in the Down Stay. But I dont expect much of her yet. We have a few small comps and demos coming up, and frankly I will be surprised if they go totally smoothly, because I accept it will be hard for her because of all the new dogs/people/smells/sights.

I expect you may think that is not good enough, that I should demand instant obedience although she will still be doing her best on the day? If she does her best, that is all i do ask. And when the time comes in a serious WT test I know she will be ready to give me that extra when I ask. Because we have a very good relationship built on trust.

Something i do feel comes across is that in your view it is all cut and dried - you make no allowances for different types of people, different dogs, home situations.....people DO tear their hair out, just as they do with husbands/wives/kids/teenagers.....and the fact that in many posts you have suggested jerking, shouting, and hitting, shows to me that you are not able to train without force :(

There ARE great trainers who do not necessarily follow treat or toy methods who nevertheless are reasonably fair to their dogs. I originally did lots of my training with my first Tervs with just praise and no treats or toys .... yet I have still become a fan of the "new" methods. There must be a reason for that ;).

Lindsay

Lindsay
Sorry to take over this thread (although I'll be quick). I hope I'm right in thinking that you're the great advocate of clicker training. I'm starting this with the Mockodile (fancied a new challenge) and just wondered if it was okay to contact you for pointers or advice when it all goes horribly wrong. Have read the go click book and he seems to get it for simple things (but then he always did simple things anyway, simple things, please simple Mockodiles:) ) Is there any basic advice that you could mail me please.
Thanks

Beth ( and the ever challenging Mock!!!) :)

I find it is really easy to click the wrong blinking thing :D

So much concentration ....so little brain

:D

Melody

HI Beth

I certainly do use clicker training and I love it - so does my dog! :) although the first few months I couldn't see the point!!!

I would also point out that as far as I am concerned I am still learning! I am no way as good with the clicker as some people I have seen - but please do email me if it will help, and I will certainly do my best :)

Like most things with dog training it is good to see it done, and have others who also do it - but books also really help.

There is a great book which takes you very "minutely", step by step - with all sorts of things, both tricks for fun and more serious training - I will come back with its title when i have found it! :)

Do you have a class near you which uses the clicker, Beth? If not let me know where you are and i will try to find you one :)

Lindsay

Denise,
Thanks for the input. Chewi, once settled at class can be very good. His formal recalls are improving and he sits in front looking up at me, and will do a nice finish going round behind and sitting again by my side. Most of the time I use hand signals with low voice commands. The only time he 'pokes' me is when it is in a play session. By poking I assume you mean nudging with his nose. He is difficult to manage when we have a visitor, I will admit, but then my last two Mals and my Samoyed were like that until they had said hello. We had a friend and her GSD stay with us a few weeks ago, and Chewi settled down after a couple of hours and was good for the whole weekend.

He behaves very well at home and will look after himself happily whilst I am doing something else. He does not pace around or pester me unless I have been on the computer past 'walk-time'! He lies under the table at mealtimes and does not beg - none of our dogs have ever been allowed to.

Today we saw my husband off at the local station, and apart from announcing his presence, and being vocal after one of the station staff had played with him, he sat quietly and watched the trains, and then walked back to the car on a loose lead. He behaved fine this evening when we picked my husband up although he did 'speak' to the passengers on the opposite platform and very vocally welcomed my husband.

The main problem is the time he takes to settle down at class and shows. He can settle at class as there is plenty of time, but at shows there is too much going on and he gets really wound up. I tend to agree with what Jacquie and other Mal people are saying - he will get better as he matures, he is already better since my first posting, and things should improve considerably (according to my obedience instructor) when he is off the puppy food with its high protein content, which will be after this sack is finished.

Any suggestions to speed up the process are however gratefully received and considered.

Jean

Hello Jean,

Do you notice that your Post constantly suggests what the dog chooses to do himself?

i.e. At your Training Club, "Once settled he can be good"
(you are awaiting his decision to behave). So what do you actually say and how do you respond?

"Formal Recalls improving"
(You have been attending for some time, so what is the problem then? Does he come in QUICKLY? Keep him looking up at your face for a while longer, and does he look away when praised by you? Before you call him, is he actually looking at you or elsewhere around the Hall?

With visitors "He does not settle until he has said hello"
(again, these are your visitors not his! but he is demanding attention, and you are allowing him to)!

"He lies under the table at meal times"
(Is this his choice, or have you told him to lie there? My guess is, it is his choice, so he has his way again)!

"He walked back from the station on a loose lead"
(was he walking by your side or in front of you)?

Do you see that everything tends to be on his terms, you are not telling him to do anything YOUR WAY. Jean you are simply managing his behaviour not controlling it!

Kind regards,
Denise.

Denise
I've been listening in to this discussion with interest as I also have an "independent" breed (maremmas - if they waited to be told what
to do when working, their flock would be eaten by the predator!).
I am interested in your approach and clearly from your description it works with your dogs. But several breed people in this thread have suggested that the type of obedience you mention is not possible with a Malamute (it goes against the grain with a Maremma also).
What breed(s) do you have? Have you successfully trained a Malamute, Maremma or similar breed using this method to this standard of obedience? Do you consider there to be breed differences in training?

This is a serious question and not intended to be a criticism in any way.
Janet

I too, have my eyebrows up at some of the information. Good thinking and theory for general situations. But I also have to ask if you are allowing for breed/temperament differences in your philosophy? Differences do exist, just never appear to be addressed on forum by dog trainers....other than John. :) :) :)

For instance, take my two mature bitches.
Chienne - Cocker/Chihuahua
Samma - Westie/Dachs

This style of training you've been discussing works with Chienne perfectly over the years. But not Samma the indy terrier mix. Both have had exactly the same 'formal' training and reinforcement....but the two dogs don't think alike and it shows. :D :D

Chienne--- I want to please YOU!
Samma --- I respect you, but what's in it for me????? :D :D

It's their natures at work. Am I to work harder with Samma -- make her frustrated and bored? She'll still be unpredictable on a recall, despite the extra time. I did this in the past, so I know. Or do I learn her 'tells'? .... her body language...and not set her up for a (whim) recall that will not be successful?

Yes, I use tidbits. Great for keeping interest in me. Also, keeps her on her toes. Samma knows "too slow" and a whiff of the hand meant she dawdled back. They don't always get them for returning quickly either. Unpredictable works quite nicely with Samma's indy spirit.

Despite her occasional disinterest, I have learned that she responds well to a certain tone in my voice that (perhaps) conveys 'danger' or 'concern'. Last week, she came quickly and directly to me after I called when a car suddenly appeared on a back road we were biking on.

This is a dog that realizes I"m the leader of the pack, hands down. But she has her little quirks. Pats on the head and praise just would never impress her. Whereas tossing a crumpled paper ball just past her nose (for distance discipline) or the occasional 'treat' does. After 8 and a half years of living together, we each have settled upon this basic understanding :D :D

toodles

Hello Eoghania,

You have answered the problem yourself - you use treat training! The dogs respond for themselves, NOT for you, and that is what you are teaching them. Chienne simply has a more easy going nature, but Samma will question your authority.

Consider that 'dawdle back recall'. She comes, but is saying "in my own time". You then with-hold a treat - so what! You still ACCEPTED the slowness, it was not corrected. She was unbothered anyway at the time about the treat. Next time, if she knows or wants a treat, she may well come in quicker. You may then give her the reward, but she still has that choice herself whether to dawdle or not! Even if you with-hold a treat on a 'quick' return, try doing that too often, and her recalls will become even slower, until you have to tempt her and reward her.

By the way, my comments regarding stroking the dogs head and giving praise, are NOT in order to IMPRESS the dog! It is the BEHAVIOURAL response of the dog when the Owner/Handler does this, that I am interested in.

Interesting crosses you have!

Kind regards,
Denise.