At the end of September I purchased a dog that was 10 months old.  The lady who owned her had worked full time, and had decided to rehome her because she did not have time for her.  The pup had been left in a Crufts puppy box, and she was not house trained.

However at the time this did not worry me as our first dog had been purchased at 5 and 1/2 months, and she was kennelled and also unhouse trained.

I found that by taking my other dog out as soon as we waked up, after meals, and play helped a lot.  We also set our alarm clocks so that we woke up every few hours so that she did not get the chance to make a mistake in the night, and we restricted her water intake so that although she could drink as much as she wanted instead of having free accesses all day she had set times, and then she was taken out again.  It only took this dog a few days to cotton on, and by a weeks time she was house trained. After a week she had free accesses to water all day, and still no mistakes.

This new dog was different though.  For the first week she refused to do anything outside.  She would signal that she needed to go, I would take her out for a period of time, nothing would happen, she would signal again (by circling, etc.) I would repeat the process or maybe take her on a walk .... she could go on a 30 min + walk .... until eventually she just let go inside of my house. 

However I knew that the last lady had sometimes just left her in the garden, so suspecting separation anxiety I just perceived, and after a week she finally did a wee in the garden.  I never have got so pleased over such a little thing lol:rolleyes:.  When she started to increase the number of times she would go outside (including starting to do the other thing too) I was over the moon.  At the end of December we got to a point where she would go for a wee just about every time I took her out.

BUT she still continued to wee during the night.  For the first month we continued with taking her out several times during the night, but disturbing my partner consistently (he would stay awake just to make sure I came back in) started to take a toile on him (he works full time).  We decided she was going as many times in the night whether or not she was taken out.  Even feeding her so that her last meal was not too late had no affect.

I would also just like to add that although we use a very cross voice and scoop her into the garden if we catch her mid flow (as well as making her feel like the queen bee when she does it outside) we do not believe in rubbing her face, etc. in it.  If she is found with it we greet her with a cross voice (for the first few weeks we just ignored her as we cleaned it up), remove her from her mess whilst calmly holding and ignoring her, as we clean up her mess (In the first week I learnt to do this as approaching her sent her into a giddy frenzy, and she got extra exited trying to catch my hand as I made busy scrubbing movements).  If she has done nothing we greet her with a happy voice, and make loads of fuss over her.  I purposely check her regally throughout the day, and I praise loads when she is clean, so that I can increase the amount of times that she is rewarded for being clean.  If she has muck or wee attached to her body I would then lead her towards the bath, shower off the affected areas whilst not giving her direct eye contact or any verbal attention (as opposed to loads of fuss and happy voices if she ever does need a real shower ... which has only been about twice since we have had her; rolling in dead stuff really does make a dog smell very bad lol).

Because she was insisting on going to the loo inside my house we decided that she had to be crated (even stain and odour remover has so much affect on preventing a carpet rotting, and been continually washed was doing it no favours).  In the crate suited to her size with a comfy bed in it she just did her business in her bed and laid in it.  After a couple of days of finding her like this I purchased a crate fit for a lab or GSD.  Comfy bed at one end, and papers at the other.  She still did it on her bed and laid on it.  I decided to swap her cushion (beds ... one was always drying lol) after a few days for blankets and vetbed.  She still continued to do her business and lay in it.

She also still continues to have accidents in the house (approximately 1 a day) despite been taken out.  For example today she was taken out when we woke up, fed straight away, and taken out again.  Both times she weed, and the second time she did the other.  1/2 an hour later I noticed a smell of ammonia coming from where she had been sleeping (on my floor), and there she was surrounded by her own wee.

We are not in February, and I am starting to wonder whether or not she will ever get better.  She keeps coming on in leaps and bounds, but we keep having set backs, and repeat episodes every now and again. 

Continually having to wash just her feet, bottom, hind quarters, and belly off is also having a bad affect on her coat.  I have to wash her as I cannot wipe the muck off it any other way.

I purchased her because I love my breed, and I have always wanted to own and show it.  However I cannot show her in this state.  I am also extremely worried about people wondering about why she looks like this and does this, as I feel like it is a huge bad reflection on myself.  After all in a few more months time if she is still doing it they will no longer believe that it is still a result of how I got her.

I am worrying about her, and I am worrying about whether or not I am doing everything that I can.  It is starting to make me feel very upset every time that we see her laid in her own muck.

If anyone had any more tips, advice, or comments on this I would very much appreciate it!

firstly just to say well done as she  seems to be doing really well. if her owner was out all day she may just have got used to peeing indoors.
can i ask what breed she is?
i can say if you keep on persevering with taking her out then i am sure you will get there in the end.
there is no point in coming down in a cross voice as she will have no clue what it is for. this anticipation for you to come down cross can make them panic which can in itself make them urinate if she is worried about it.
the best thing to do is to just greet her normally then take her somewhere she can not see you cleaning up the mess and continue with the routine. also she won't have any idea why somedays she gets a jolly bath and other days she doesn't. best just to clean her up with a normal routine or you might end up with a dog that is scared of the bath.
about the weeing in the bed i was just wondering if you feed her in her crate. this will make her even less want to wee there.
is she weeeing in one spot? if she is then feeding her a meal there (and one in her crate pref at night) can help as they do not want to wee where they eat.
make sure what ever you clean it up with does not contain ammonia as this smells to a dog like wee.
some other ideas - you mention seperation anxiety as a possibility? could this be why she is still weeing at night? mostly the night is the longest dogs are left and she may be getting worried. could you move the crate upstairs to your bed and see if she is clean (also feed her in the crate) then graduallly move the crate a little bit at a time away from your bed and downstairs or just keep her in a crate in your room.

hope this helps.
and well done sounds like you are doing brill
anna

Thank you Anna you have given me a lot to think about.

I did worry about whether or not to add the cross voice as it went against all of my training principles.  When I was using it I would just greet her with 'dirty girl' in a growl tone, as opposed to 'clean' in a happy voice.  I only tried negative reinforcement out just in case any 'positive' results occurred out of a result of her connecting her actions of being laid in it with an unhappy owner, and her not being laid in it with a happy owner.  However I do hate doing it, as I have learnt that I can achieve so much more with my dogs by never telling them off (it sounds stupid but I see anything they do wrong as a result of me not training it right).  Very shortly after I introduced this she would look very happy when I greeted her if she was clean, and she would avoid eye contact if she was laid in it, and her house training also seemed to click in place. 

But I think your idea of just removing her sounds an even better one.  I may just have to get her old crate out and stick it next to the new one (my bedroom is going to look like a prison with all these bars lol). This will stop her running around like the mad nutter she is when I am cleaning my carpet / her crate.

I will also change my approach to her at bath times.  I tried to do it quietly without much interaction, because I was worried about reinforcing her being laid in it, by rewarding her with lots of rubs along her belly (as I wash her), and a happy voice.  But I was also worried about making the bath a bad place, which is why I also try and connect it with positive experiences (e.g. treats as she is placed in).  When I put her in with wee & poop on her she looks sad, but when she doesn't have it on she is as mad as she usually is. 

However after reading your post I realise that maybe her 'emotions' are a result of how she feels about our interactions, and not the fact that she has been laid in her own stuff?

is she weeeing in one spot

The problem appears to be accentuated in the area she sleeps.  She rarely ever does anything and lay in it when she is beside me in the early - late afternoon & night time. Although if she was to have an accident when loose it tends to occur morning to late dinner time (a real wide stab in the dark is maybe this is the time that the last owner was at work?). But she regally goes and does it and then lays in it if I am asleep (comfy bed loose on the bedroom floor, or the crate).  She is fed in her crate, and I have tried placing her food bowl in the area beside her bed, but I think I understand why this does not happen.  Before she got used to going outside if you did not watch her eat all of her food she would quite happily wee in the spot she was eating, and then go back to eating.  After discovering this a couple of times I then had to resort to watching her from a distance to see if she put her bum downwards mid meal.

I know that not everyone agrees with their dogs being in the bedroom, but thats where she is.  She isn't on the bed for two reasons, my partner is a turner in bed and I could see her being kicked off, and I think if I was to disturb her from her position she would just wee next to me.  I was on the phone once, and she jumped up and weed within seconds, so I don't think that she perceives my bed as being sacred or anything lol.:rolleyes:

I think that maybe one of the things that I am feeling worried about is that I always thought that dogs were naturally clean (e.g. don't lay in their own stuff if they have a choice, and they don't do it in the area they eat).  However she for a reason I can't guess at chooses to do this.  I just feel if I could understand the reason then maybe I would have a better idea of a better solution.  Hopefully time will resolve this ..... by the time it does though I think her showing days will be getting numbered as in our breed they tend to be shown young .... so it may be that she is just destined to be a pet (although sold as a show dog :-/ ).

I would love her to bits either way (we have both fallen head over heels in love with her), I just want to make her happy, and my rooms to stop smelling so strongly of disinfectant lol. :rolleyes:

By the way she is from the toy group, and the reason I have not identified her breed is because I am worried about someone reading this post, knowing who her last owner was, and then for them to start telling other people about how she came to me.  I don't want to cause or be blamed for any negative feelings being directed towards them.  However I feel so desperate for help that I just had to ask for it.

Hi,
It does sound like your doing really well - as Anna said there is no point in greeting her with a growly voice as she could have had the accident quite a while before and wouldn't understand what was wrong, but it sounds like you didn't really like doing that anyway :-)

Just one other thought - have you had her checked over by the vet for this problem, as it is possible there could be some kind of infection or some other kind of problem.  If you haven't had her checked out, make an appointment for your own peace of mind and go armed with a urine sample.

Lastly, you didn't say with regards to your current dog whether you were restricting water but this isn't a good idea, dogs should have access to water at all times.  If it is behavioural then water restriction wouldn't help anyway.  If it's a medical problem restricting water could do more harm than good.

I hope you get things sorted, keep us posted.

Karen

the reason i asked about the breed is that i have know certain toy breeds that always pee in their beds no matter what you do, dachshunds for one example.
do you use vetbed as her bedding, this will absorb the wee and take it away from the dog into the lower layer and should help with less washing.

only other suggestion is to take her out every 45mins during the night - may be the only last resort if you really want to get on top of it as it seems like a habit is forming. then change it to 1hr - then 2hrs and so on.

get her checked out but as you say she is clean in the day so not sure if it will be an infection.

keep with it and i am sure you will crack it soon.

only other suggestion is to take her out every 45mins during the night

I could give this another go (we did do something very similar in the first month, but it was more on a 2 hour schedule .... and that really killed me lol).  One part of me thinks it may work better this time as she is already a lot better than when we did it the first time, and another part thinks that for the first month it did not appear to work at all.  However at this point anything is worth a try :rolleyes:, although I am sure that my partner will relegate me and her to the sofa downstairs.  Has anyone got a comfy sleeping mat they want to lend me ;-)

give it a go! if you never let her have an accident then it should resolve fairly quickly ;)
not sure what else to do except to tire (sp?) her out (hugely) before she goes to sleep ie at 12pm and then wake up at say 4am to let her out and then 6am etc...
a good training session then a big game or tuggie or fetch or running around in the garden should help as a nice tiring game (you should sleep well too if you put everything into it)
good luck
anna

LOL Looks like I am going to be very busy for the next few weeks ..... if I can get to the bottom of this though it will be worth its weight in gold

(Im also getting her checked over by a vet just in case)

a nice tiring game

She loves to play catch her owner, and since my neighbours already think Im nutty with my dogs I can't see them being much more surprised if they see me out and about in the late hours playing dodge ...... oh dear if you see a pic in next weeks paper of someone been taken off clutching a small dog you will know who it is ;-)

Has she been checked for incontinence by the vet.  Is she spayed, or could she have soem other problem with her bladder?

I admire you for your patience and perseverance. I think I would be crying my eyes out in frustration in your shoes. Good luck :)
Katie

Thank you everyone for your kind words, and for taking the time to answer my post.  Because of the cold weather that we have been having I had given her a couple of blankets to cuddle up into on top of her vet bed.  However as the nights are getting a bit milder now I may try just leaving her vet bed in.  Although the vet bed takes the majority of her wee away from her it doesn't do much for removing her other bodily waste :rolleyes: (sorry I didn't want to be too graphic as some of you may be eating your dinner right now).

It was interesting to read that some toy breeds suffer from this type of behaviour, although I can't guess why that is so.

I must also confess that I did not consider an infection for a couple of reasons.  I have had a dog with a terrible infection before and I remember her doing lots of mini wees, and her sometimes being in pain.  Male dogs were also very interested in her (my vet said that they sometimes confuse the smells given during an infection with those that are given off when a bitch is coming into season), and my little baby has not been like this one bit.

She was also at the vets a lot a week after we got her.  As the vet was unsure of the exact cause of her symptoms she had just about every test under the sun.  I remember that the results from her blood test showed no rise in antibodies, and the vet saying that she was suffering from no infection.  However I may ring them up and ask them to do an urine sample just in case.

In terms of water accesses she has full accesses from when we wake up until a couple of hours before bed.  As her water bowl is in a place I can see it, if I hear her drinking then I take her out shortly afterwards.  My other dogs have full accesses to water during the night, and their bowl doesn't appear to be touched during these hours so I didn't see it as denying her quite as much.  However I do know every dog is different, and I wouldn't like to be making her feel uncomfortable.  But from all of my reading I mainly read that free water availability during the night can cause a problem to become far worse.  I have also known of other case studies where they have been advised to take up the water during these hours, and the dog's toilet problem has disappeared shortly afterwards.

Once again thank you for taking the time to read this :-)

I was mainly thinking of involuntary wetting, not an infection, due to the muscles not holding when she is alseep or resting, often associated with spaying, or a bladder that is wired wrong and causes leaking (less likely if she is clean at other times).

I didn't even think of that (I now feel very cross with myself) ..... Im going to take her to a vets (probably be at least Saturday before they let me in) and ask them what they think. 

Will it mean putting her under anaesthetic to check it out, or can they do it whilst she is awake? 

I haven't mentioned it previously to them (and I have seen them enough times to have got them a very nice holiday this year lol) as I just thought it was a training thing.

Although it would provide a great solution I hope for her sake that this is not the case, as I would hate to think of her suffering for the last few months

Once again thank you for your help!  If your right you would have done my baby untold favours :-)