HI,
Is it okay to play Tug of War games with a 14 week old Beagle (we wouldn't pull to strong). Is this good or bad for a dogs aggresion?
So far we haven't played Tug of War. We think she needs to take her aggresion out some way. Any Suggestions?
Thanks Tamzyn

I think the main problem is who wins :) A small game can't do any harm, but you should be teaching the pup to give the toy to you at the end of the game - it's your toy and you are the one who instigates the game - you don't want the pup playing TOW with everything :)

Daisy

I let my dog win about 1 in every 3/4 games though :)

i always let my dogs win

saying that however
A.i need them to be HIGHLY toy motivated
B.they WILL stop & leave if i tell them
C.they also tug harder on command

But I'm sure that they have got to that stage AFTER some training :D :D

Daisy

i see the tuggy as rewarding game with me, & them getting the toy as reward.However i think they find the playing with me more rewarding as they come back for another tug! ive not ever trained them to let go specifically,they just do.they know what leave means in all circumstances.

the funniest thing to do is to hold the other end,but as soon as they "tug" (rather than hold) to drop it from my hand,they get quite insistent pushing it in back in.

i dont have any dominace problems with my dogs at all,& flynn has been enocouraged to tug & win since a puppy.

when they tug with each other the most detrimend dog wins,not the "highest ranking" one

Mine enjoy a tug game as well :) The main thing, as I see it, is that I am in charge and determine who wins, who gets the toy and when the game has finished :D What a new puppy owner must ensure is that their puppy learns this too ;) :D

Daisy

why? what happens if you dont win?

It's not a question of me not winning - my dogs are allowed to win too :D It's just that I have control of what goes on - if I say 'Enough' the game ends and if I say 'Give' I get the toy. I won't allow my dogs not to know these commands :)

Daisy

I don't have a hissy-fit and scream if I don't win :D :D :D

cool!!!!

Hi,

I think tuggy games are a good thing - it's fun for both owner and dog and it's a good bonding exercise.  It's also a great way of teaching the drop/give command.  I let my girl win fairly regularly - if you never let them win then the game will become boring to them, as soon as I say give she does no matter what point in the game we are at.  Do be careful not to pull to hard at that age what with teething as if it's to hard and hurts him it may put him off.  Most importantly have fun, you will be able to judge if he's getting too over excited and it's time for a break from the game.

Karen

Tamzyn - Generally speaking yes it is fine to play tug of war with your dog, and No, it will not make her aggressive in any way.  (Other than towards her tuggy.)

My dogs don't actually care who wins or loses - they enjoy the game itself.  If they win, they will immediately offer me the tuggy back so we can play again.  Personally, I think that with most dogs it's the game itself they enjoy. 

I think your absolutely right onetwothree, it's the game of it they enjoy - but Ciara definately enjoys it when I let go and say "oh, look what you got" in a silly voice :rolleyes: she does a little bunny hop, runs in a circle and then shoves it back at me - very cute!

No tug of war if you've got a gundog and have any intention of ever working it!  Rabbits and pheasant look pretty unpleasant when two dogs have played tug of war with them! :rolleyes:

when I first got my puppy i followed the usual house rules re not letting them be boss and all that (which i now totally disregard as he never tries to be)and didnt play tuggy because he would win...., shock... horror!!( he is stronger than me) i now thing that all that stuff is rubbish any way but the thing is, because we didnt play tug with him, he cant do it now, he just puts it in your lap and you tug it gently and he lets go! then puts it back in your lap again, its rather boring. how can i teach him its ok to tug!!!

try a really really long tuggy!

Totally disagree with this Jacky - I do have working gundogs which I work on shoots and compete with.  They have never shaken or destroyed any game.  But they shake and "kill" their tuggies.

Dogs can learn that it is not appropriate to treat game as a toy. 

onetwothree,

Quote : "Dogs can learn that it is not appropriate to treat game as a toy."

However, if they dont learn to tell the difference then you've completely messed the dog up. Playing 'tuggy' with a trainee gundog is a relatively high risk / low benefit strategy.

Absolutely not.  Tuggy is one of the most motivating games there are, more so than food for many dogs.  The better the reward you hold, the better the dog will work for it and the better the end result.  In addition, it is a lot easier to carry a small tuggy in your pocket than a big pack of treats.  Tuggy is also a bonding experience between handler and dog - your dog is actually having fun doing something WITH you, rather than you just being a human treat dispenser (nothing wrong with that, but there's a dimension missing).  I think, if tuggy lead to hard mouth or mauling, I would have seen it by now with mine....

Tuggy is great and rids the dog esp a pup or youngster of all that energy and zing. You will bond better and have a closer understanding of each other. Dog ownership and training takes team work....what do teams do?

Tuggy is a great game if, like everything else that you do with your dog, it is trained correctly.

Ie the dog must not grab the tugger until it is given the cue and it must let go on cue too.  The dog must also learn that it is absolutely NOT permitted to make mistakes, ie bite your fingers or hands.

It is an excellent exercise for teaching stimulus control and developing a dog's self control and discipline.

If, however, you feel that you do not have the skills and knowledge to teach this properly, by all means avoid it if you think it may pose issues with regard to gundog training.

FWIW I know many dogs who can hit the sleeve hard one minute in manwork training and retrieve a pheasant tenderly to hand the next, but this is down to training ;)

I'm quite surprised (and perhaps a little tiny bit sceptical ;-)) that there are many dogs combining manwork with gundog work!

The 'risk' with a gundog is that there is no legal way of training a dog to deal with a lively wounded cock pheasant or squealing rabbit, that it has had to run down, catch, and perhaps pull out of a thick heap of brambles. The handler could well be a hundred+ metres away, so we are pretty much reliant on the instincts of the dog. For me (and all of the gundog trainers / authors / video presenters I've ever come across) the less experience the dog has of pulling and tugging on a rope/toy the better.

I'm sure that playing 'tuggy' won't inevitably lead to anything, however once a dog has got into the habit of biting hard on wounded game, a cure becomes a rather big deal.

I only have limited experience of dogs that have been allowed to play tuggy and work in the field, I can perhaps think of four? However, they have all had a suspect or proven hard mouth.

As a point of interest, all of the advocates of tuggy for a gundog I have come across in forums have got into gundog work via obedience / working trials training, and I think without exception have worked HPRs. To be fair, they do seem to require a more imaginitive approach to getting them to play the gundog game by the rules. HPRS have possibly the worst reputation amongst triallers for having a suspect mouth, so if you've got a way of curing / avoiding it, I'm sure it would be gratefully receieved.

A "lively, wounded cock pheasant" is warm, moving, may have blood on it, is covered with feathers.  A squealing rabbit again is warm, moving, may have blood on it and is covered with fur. 

A tuggy toy is usually cold, not alive, not bleeding and made of rope. 

There is no relationship between the game and the rope.

After all, how do you think dogs can bite their food hard, chew and swallow it, bite hard if defending themselves, bite hard if doing manwork and so on - yet pick up pups with a soft mouth, never break human skin (very soft) and carefully administer nips and warning bites without doing grievous bodily harm to each other?  The answer is that they are capable of altering how hard they bite to a very fine degree and it is ENTIRELY dependent on what they have in their mouth. 

Otherwise, perhaps we should begin administering their food in a liquid form and through a straw - so that they never have to bite anything, because, shock, horror, they may transfer that to game.

They are no more likely to bite down on game because they have played tuggy than they are to bite down on a human hand because they have played tuggy.  The two things are entirely non-related and there has never been any evidence that they are.  The rumour that "tuggy causes hard mouth" is a myth and an old wives' tale which people are too afraid not to abide by, "just in case". 

I don't come from an obedience or working trials background.  Just gundog.

Interesting points.

My view is that a natural soft mouth is inherant within the dog but is easily lost. Many dogs mouths deteriorate over time if they are worked often enough. There are few dogs that make it to retirement without putting the ribs in on the occasional bird if their owners are honest enough and know how to check for it.

A natural soft mouth is unusual in that it must work against the natural predatory instinct of the dog. IMO playing tuggy is about using the dogs inherant prey drive for something the dog (and often the owner) enjoy. The concern is that this response to a prey type situation that induces hard mouth rather than the feel of what is in their mouth. Many dogs are only hard mouthed on lively, wounded game and thus it must be the struggling and movement which induces the biting instinct rather than the feel.  If the dog chooses this response to a runner, then there is really not much that can be done to cure it.

Given that I'd doubt that any FTCh will ever have been trained using this game, the potential benefits dont strike me as being great enough to warrant any such risk, however small.

I believe a soft mouth (or hard mouth) is largely genetic but a hard mouth can be created, say, when retrieving a struggling cock bird.  This is usually because the dog panics and bites down on the bird, and then "learns" that this stops the struggling (ie kills the bird).  In future, the dog carries out the same tactic because it has learnt that it will stop the bird from struggling, and stop possible injury to itself (the dog). 

There is a very good system of cause>effect>consequence occurring here:

Inexperienced dog has struggling cock bird>Dog panics and bites down>Dog learns this stops the struggling>Dog is in this way rewarded for biting>Dog is more likely to bite down in future.

This is how most dogs acquire hard mouth.  And they might be dogs which have or have not play tuggy - tuggy has no bearing on sudden panic and wanting to stop something flailing in their mouth with big spurs - I think tuggy couldn't be furthest from a dog's mind at that time.  The best way to prevent this is not to set the dog on runners until it is very very experienced with dead game and would never think of biting down on game, because it never has, and because the situation has happened many many times before with dead game and with no biting down.

With a tuggy, the dog bites down and the game continues - the tuggy continues to move, it does not stop moving when the dog bites.  The sense of something in the dog's mouth, which is being pulled away (tuggy), is a very different sensation to a bird in the mouth struggling.  Yes, if another dog came along and they each got hold of part of the bird and pulled it apart together, then that would be the "real game" equivalent of tuggy.  But that's not a part of gundog work and it's not something that's likely to happen.

Also, my dogs carry out all kinds of predatory behaviours which it is hard or impossible to prevent:  When carrying their toys around, they will often shake them in their mouths.  They will often put balls down and allow them to roll a way away and then pounce on them.  They sometimes play tuggy with each other.  I can't prevent these predatory behaviours and, according to your theory, they would be just as likely to increase the chances of hard mouth as anything a person can do with a dog, such as play tuggy.  Unless you advocate a dog having no toys, which just wouldn't be possible for me and the quality of life I want to give them.

I suppose it depends on what "many" means to you havoc.  I personally know of around 20 and not all of them are gundog breeds! ;)

Good training prevents bad habits from forming.

My 10mth old male BC loves playing tug of war games...He never engages in the game until I give the command and he always lets go of the toy when I tell him to leave...However, his litter mate sister doesn't enjoy such games and prefers to chase tennis balls (and birds!)...I can't see a problem in playing this type of game but I guess it depends on the dog/breed whether it is a suitable game or one that could encourage inappropriate or aggressive behaviour.

Only caveats I can think of are to be careful with teething puppies (though maybe it would help them to lose the teeth?) and I no longer allow my old Lab to play this because I'm afraid she might hurt her already sore back.  I'm also careful to not let go when the pooch could fall backwards down a hill or into a blackberry bush.  The dogs have not been so considerate and I have ended up on my fanny more than once.  Both our previous ESS (working gun dog) and present Lab (not hunted) loved tug of war and knew which items were allowed for playing.  I allow(ed) mine to win regularly too, and giving them the item to keep is our signal that the game is over.

i play tug with all 3 of my dogs. i never win and they wont give the tug back

i bet they love you for it bek!!!!! :D :)

Ditto :D  So we're supposed to win most times   That would spoil their fun :D :D :D

i would love to win but they just wont let me

we play tug with Flo, she loves it, i win sometimes she wins others, when she loses i either give it back nicely or make her sit then throw and she fetches it back for me!!
she used to break the rules and nip me hands, so i would drop the tug and ignore until she played 'properly'!

I highly value the inherent soft mouths my dogs have too much to 'risk' playing tug with them as pups.  My dogs are no worse off for having missed out on this game, they have all had rope toys but we've been strict with how they play with them.  As spaniels, mine are eager to bring them back and will leave on command, I do not wish to risk them doing anything else.

I'm with you on this one Havoc.

Willis doesn't even bother playing tuggy - such is his confidence that he will win :D

>she used to break the rules and nip me hands, so i would drop the tug and ignore until she played 'properly'!

Been there, done that too! The joys of terriers, eh? :D

:-D @ Chloe!

I love a 'Willis moment' before I go to bed

Eek, that sounds a bit dodgy :rolleyes:

NO, not yet. You have to wait till your dog's big teeth are in & set. Ask your vet what age your dog's teeth will be fully set in the jaw at?

Once the big teeth are fully set in the jaw it is okay to tug. ;)