This is a question asked by someone whose entire knowledge of dog shows is watching Crufts on the telly once a year but it is genuinely meant.

I know from this site that the breeders here take huge trouble to ensure that they breed from only good stock and take into full account temperament and health as well as looks - but how would I know that from Crufts?  As far as I can see it is only physical perfection that is judged yet 'champions' will obviously attract bigger prices both as individuals and as breeding stock - and all specimens have to be entire to be shown for just this purpose I guess. 

Do no animals slip through which are physically perfect but temperamentally suspect?  Can some genetic conditions be masked in a young (winning) dog only to become apparent when it has entered the breed gene pool?

When we purchased our one pedigreed dog (thirty years ago so no Internet) it was a GSD whose every ancestor was a champion of some sort (but what did we know? Very little if I'm honest).  Max was a lovely looking and sweet natured dog but a bigger neurotic would have been hard to find and dysplasia/arthritis caused him to be PTS at thirteen.

Do Crufts and similar shows sort this kind of thing out nowadays? Or is it just a big doggy bimbofest?

I think its each to your own!

I don't have a problem with people Showing dogs, I enjoy going to shows and love going to watch Crufts. It is nice if your are interested in a particular breed to go along to Crufts to see some of the top dogs in the breed. I personally find it interesting but I also do Agility & Obedience with my dog as I really enjoy that to and I like to go to shows and I enjoy watching.

Dogs are judged on confirmation, movement and the breed standard of that breed so no it's not just about looks it is about how they are put together, how they move and how they add up to the breed standard. If you do a bit of research into a particular breed you might find it quite interesting as you can do research as to where the breed orginated from and how they have developed.

In my breed, alot of the people I know do Agility, Obedience etc aswell as show there dogs. Just because you show your dog dosen't mean it a bimbo or it's just a beauty contest you can do others things with them. I know many people that do just that, I think people who show dogs get a raw deal as many people assume that's all they do with there dogs, yes thats true for some but not all. :)

Well if the judges judge to the breed standard then all the dogs should at least have a good temperament

However I have seen at least two GSDs(both bitches)that have either backed off the judge or equally as bad been aggressive both to the Group judge & his chief steward(that bit was shown on TV !!!she's now dead) & they had both previously in the breed rings been awarded BOB Obviously the breed judge concerned wasn't too picky over the temperament. There was also another breed whose eventual BOB not only backed off the judge of the sex but refused to be handled by the other breed judge & was awarded BOB by the referee who also could not touch the dog ! Not mentioning the breed as it identify the dog concerned

I much prefer watching the obedience when I'm not showing my dogs as TBH watching other people's dogs I don't know personally(the dogs that is)is like watching paint dry

I'm off to watch a friend work in the Obedience Championships for the first time on the Friday & on the sund watch the world cup which will be starring Speedy the Cairn Terrier Ob Ch from Switzerland he stole the show last year & I love him to bits He's a super little dog  & I'm not a terrier person ;)

There's normally no way a judge in the ring can know of any genetic traits a particular dog may have. 

Remember that temperament can be breed specific so some dogs are not as outgoing with strangers as others.  The correct temperament for one breed may not be correct for another.  

To most exhibitors showing is a day out with friends with the same interest.  How much their dog or resulting puppies can make is not usually on the agenda. ;)

I enjoy my days out at shows, as do my dogs - no point in showing a dog year in year out that doesn't enjoy it :)

Yes there are some dogs that become Champions early on only to become the victim of a late onset genetic disease.  Not much you can do about it apart from all the health tests relevant for that breed.

Overall showing is a great hobby :D

Debs

Is it Debs???????? I must remember that next time I get thrown out or beaten by c**p!!! LOL :D :D :D

Been there done that :D :D :D

Oops missed this

>Can some genetic conditions be masked in a young (winning) dog only to become apparent when it has entered the breed gene pool? <

Like HD yes & other genetic disorders they have not yet found the marker genes for also yes but as the DNA of the dog is mapped eventually most genetic disorders will have a test like the ones for CEA( & CL for BCs) in the BC's, Roughs etc. The KC will register puppies from any dog (except Irish Setters)regardless of whether they have been genetically or clinically screened or not. I would love the KC to insist on testing before breeding in all breeds. The ISDS did it with working sheepdogs registered with them(which are recignized as BCs by the KC) & they reduced the incidence of CEA & PRA with dramatic effect

Do no animals slip through which are physically perfect but temperamentally suspect?  Can some genetic conditions be masked in a young (winning) dog only to become apparent when it has entered the breed gene pool?

Like Moonmaiden said, yes it can happen that some judges put up dogs whose temperament is not what it should be,  but you have to bear in mind that show dogs will have to be judged by several judges, at the very LEAST 3 different ones to become a Champion, and in the great majority of cases many, many more as it isn't usually as easy as just showing 3 times and hey presto you have a Champion. :)  (Often it takes years even.) And like it's said, you can fool some of the people some of the time, but not all of the people all of the time, hence it would be very difficult indeed for a dog with suspect temperament to be made up as it would need several judges all ignoring the temperament.

I actually have one dog myself that has become seriously ring shy, we have tried and tried with him (very long story), he's a Golden Retriever, and if put in front of a judge now or somebody pretending to be a judge, he totally panicks and there is no way he would allow that person near him. Yet under normal circumstances he is wonderful. There is no way we can show him -he's a very very nice looking dog but no judge I know of would ever condone him not being able to be approached without  getting scared as it is wrong for the breed. (And quite apart from that, as it upsets him so much there is no way I am going to continue to upset him, when he can be happy being a pet at home.)

As for genetic conditions -well this is why conditions such as hip dysplasia etc have to be screened for before breeding and as for HD dogs have to be at least 12 months old before it can be done, this is also the case with some eye problems, although others can be checked at a young age and yet others can now be DNA tested for giving a definitive answer as to whether the dog ever will develop them or not. Looking at Champions in the pedigree will tell you nothing about the health. But no, dog shows are not JUST beauty competitons, as there is always a reason for why a breed should look a particular way, and why movement is so important; the dog has to be put together correctly to be able to move correctly -yes dogs shows are competitions but they are also one way to determine the future breeding stock, and ensuring the breeds continue to look LIKE their breeds. If you look at breeds that have been split into 2 types, one for showing and one for working, you will see that the working type inevitably looks very different from the show type, and in some breeds they can even be mistaken for crossbreeds, and this is what happens when ONLY working abilty (or only health or only temperament) are paid attention to. In the ideal world we should all only breed from dogs that have it all really. :)

A breed standard describes the dogs physical and meantal characteristics, and certainly a judge should be able to gauge temperament at the very least in the showring.

Soem breeds like mine are supposed to be bold and energetic,a dn this shoudl be quite obvious in the smae way as the aloofness of an Afghan.

Of course ypu are right you as an onlooker cahn only see the dogs physcial attributes,a dn if a coted breed not even those.

Ths is why judges I know are often surprised at what they find when they judge a dog as opposed to see it in the ring.

Tradionally it is the breeders shop window, showing what the breeder can produce, and what dogs and bitches have produced the best specimins.  Others will try to emulate this by careful and fortuitous partners for theri bitches/dogs.

I would not say that a do g or bitch beinbg champions would make their offspring carry a higher price tag, the reason one uses good doigs and bitches is to attempt to breed the best one can, it's a matter of pride, not price.

Although mine is a numerically smallish breed, and I cannot speak for other breeds, certainly a pup from "champion lines" does not cost more than any other pup of the breed, allowing for the slight fluctuation of prices between breeders.

Same with my breeds Fillis.  All pups tend to be the same price regardless of who breeds them.

Debs

Most defnately the same here.

dysplasia/arthritis caused him to be PTS at thirteen.

Thats a decend age...do you not agree!..not extremely old but not at all bad.
As for the rest of your post...yes Crufts and all other dog shows are merely beauty contests HOWEVER they are the 'shop window' for breeders who 'if responsible' will then take the 'beauty' from the show ring and then check the health and lineage of said dog and if they prove a suitable match to the brood bitch will then use the dog to hopefully produce good puppies.
Just because a dog is a champion doesn't mean the dog will be used at stud...theres much more to it than that.
Archer

I'm so fed up with dogshows being looked down upon, as "bimbo-competitions"! . Most people have no idea of the amount of training a good showdog has had. The easier it looks, the more time and effort is put in, both by the handler and the dog!  We all know dogs with bad temperament that went BOB at one time or other. Still, nine times out of ten, a dog with a bad mentality will not show well enough to win. (even if it does, those thinking of useing it for stud will hopefully be knowledgeable enough to see through it)

Apart from the actual showing, a dog campaigned will have to endure long journeys, staying in hotels, or with new people and their dogs, long days waiting at ringside, and still be able to do their stuff well enough for onlookers to think it looks so  easy any dog could do that. Only a dog in perfect health, with a good temperament and hours and hours of training behind it, will be able to do that! Why isn't that valued? Or the fact that "show people" spend time and money year in and year out, to the benefit of the breed and all those interested in it. Where would someone otherwise be able to learn and improve their knowledge? Why isn't this valued, but looked down upon as something silly people do with dogs not god enough to work?
Beauty is sometimes talked about as something not important. But beauty equals good construction, which is important to the dog, as it enabels it to move soundly, thus having the chance of a long and healthy life.
In another thread a potential breeder refuses to show as she doesn't like it. Well, usually breeding starts with showing, not the other way around. Shows are the places where one can educate oneself in the breed of one's choice.
After actively showing your dogs for many years, names in pedigrees are pictures in your head, not just letters on a paper.  Of course we all have different pictures in our heads, when thinking of the nonexistent "perfect dog". But seeing and learning  at shows over several years, will at least have given you a fair picture of what is important in your breed.

Sorry, I'm ranting. Anyway, the answer is NO. Crufts isn't just a beauty competition, it's far more than that!

My friend who i walk with, was singing my BCs praises to a local mastif owner/ column writer,telling him about how close my girl had been to qualify for Crufts (she came 4th jnr at LKA) bearing in mind it was hers and mine first Champ show we were sooooo thrilled, how deflated was she and i to be told that "any old rocking horse could go to Crufts, as long as it was pretty!"

Thanks to all who took the trouble to reply.

I'm sorry if I ruffled some feathers.  I have no doubt of the huge commitment in terms of time, effort and money, people give to showing dogs but (and please remember this comes from a dedicated mutt lover, however misguided you might think me) I remain unconvinced about the validity of 'breed standards', most of which were established many, often hundreds of years ago and yet modern dogs look so little like their original stock.  Big dogs seem to get bigger, small dogs smaller and hairy dogs - well don't get me started.

Anyway. who am I to talk? When I go round the rescue centres, I don't just pick the dog nearest the door; responsiveness, demeanour and (yes, I admit it) looks all play a part in my eventual choice.

May your rosettes be many and your losses few,

Linda