with out wanting to be shot down in flames about this. i was wondering if there was a reason why health tested good qualitys pedigree animals still seem to have more problems and a less long life span than cross breed animals?

Do they? My pedigrees (so far) have reached their mid-teens, whereas our mongrel died aged 9.

I dont know if thats true but i have a pedigree GSD and a GSD cross BC and they are both fit and healthy.I wouldnt like to think of one going before its time anyway. :(

where are you getting your evidence from ?

Not shooting  -Yet :D
Can you show us some statistics to bear out that statement?
Sorry, but I think that it's an often stated, rarely substantiated myth.
My pedigrees generally reach their mid teens & I'm not aware of any similar size/type crossbreed that regularly exceeds that life span.

I dont know what evidence there is for your comment. Do cross breed have their eyes tested or hips scored and the results published somewhere?

I know of dogs both pedigree and crossbreeds to live well into their teens.  I got talking to a lady at our vets whose dog was 21!!.  That is the oldest dog i have known of.

I can go one better jazzywoo :D

Daisy a golden lab who lived in our street had to be pts in August and she was 24

She was a first anniversary present for her 'mum' from her 'dad' as they could not have children and she died 5 days after they had celebrated their silver wedding anniversary :(

They have got a new chocolate lab now called Libby :) She is adorable
They were devestated to lose Daisy though and they had her cremated and scattered her ashes at a campsite they used to visit every summer :)

I know of a GSD that died when it was 31!

my hydro pool used to have a 23 YROLD VEGETARIAN Border Collie SWIM THERE!  theres a poster on the wall.

Thinking of the dogs that I know/have known - of the dogs that die young (for their breed) seems to be the pedigrees. Most of the crossbreeds that I have known have died of old age (or old age related illnesses) :)

Daisy

Is this by hearsay rather than evidence you have based your question on maybe :)

I couldn't confirm either way as have my own small experience in owning Pedigrees and have known crosses but don't have enough firm evidence to be able to comment ;)

I'd still like someone to explain why insurance companies charge less to insure crossbreeds and more (a lot more in some cases) for pedigree dogs ?? Actuaries aren't sentimental and they would base their premiums purely on statistics :)

Daisy

Yes if there was evidence on the basis on why the Insurance companies do this then I would be open to make an opinion :)

The cynic in me as well points that people who get pedigrees are more likely to be higher earners and so are more likely to pay more premiums :)

Not that I hold that opinion on this just looking at people who in companies are looking at demographics :)

Hmm - I can see what you are saying - but are you saying this applies to motor vehicles as well ?? I always believed that premiums were calculated (particularly in the computer age :D ) and were applied purely on the relevant factors such as incidence of claims, types of illness/accident relating to breed, average vet cost in the area etc  - never considered that insurers had any particular axe to grind - particularly as dog (pet) insurance is purely voluntary :) I have one pedigree and one crossbreed - it has never crossed my mind to treat them any differently. I'd pay the same premium for both :)

Daisy

What about replacement value?

Pedigree more likely to be stolen so high replacement value?

More likely to be bred from so more risk to health?

You beat me to it lol

Daisy - as regards insurance premiums/actuaries - I've been quoted by no less than four different insurance companies for higher premiums on Freya, labrador, than for Vinnie, Aussie.

I put it down to the fact that more people will claim for labradors than there are Aussies registered :D.

On the same basis, there are probably more pedigree dogs insured than there are crossbreeds.

No factual evidence though - apart from the fact that our (pedigree) labs have all lasted well into their teens - 13, 16, 17 & 15, whilst cross bred(?) border terrorist died age 10.

Margot

But that's not the way that insurance companies work :) They will look at how much they have to cough up, on average, for each labrador that is insured. Large breeds are more expensive because they are more expensive to anaesthetise etc I'd imagine that Aussies are, in general, healthier than the 'average' (possibly badly bred :( ) lab :)

Daisy

Mmm again I question Insurance companies as when we had our flood and we got a bonus cheque of £1000 for having a claim over £10K

I would like to see what they base their preminums on as think it is not a clear cut as we think :)

We have done this topic a death before, until someone provides me with hard facts I couldn't say either way but I think it is very unfair that Pedigrees are labelled unheathly so often. In my time I have owned 2 pedigrees and 2 crossbreeds and didn't have any serious health problems with any of them.

Wolfwomen - How many and what type of dogs do you have? If you have crossbreeds did you get them from a rescue or a shelter? If you have Pedigrees did you buy them from a breeder or get them from rescue?

:)

my mongrel is much more unhealthy than my vizsla. she has all types of allergies and we were forever taking her to the vets as a pup. my vizsla on the other hand only went in due to having kennel cough which turned into pneumonia. and i would say that the allergies could be to do with genes whilst kennel cough is not.
they are however only 2 and 3 so will have to wait and see :)

Doesnt the cost of the dog pedigree or crossbreed come into it aswell, in the same way the cost of a car would bump up car insurance. Do they pay out if your dog is stolen? Not that getting money would compensate in anyway for something horrible like that happening. But does this have something to do with it? Or am i just too tired to think properly lol.

They do ask how much the dog cost. But my pedigree cost little more than my crossbreed - so why is the premium for my pedigree considerably more than my crossbreed ?? :D

Daisy

Aussies cost more (or are more "valuable" if you like) than labradors

(Both equally valuable to us though)

Margot

I really do think that we are missing the point that profits margins are the reason for high preminums :)

If they can exploit they will ;)

That is how companies make money :)

insurance companies charge more premiums for a pedigree- as they will reinburse you the purchase price if dog dies from accident/illness/stolen. there are other reasons too.

Crossbreeds can be cheaper to ensure because they are deemed not as valuable and therefore lower risk.  

Furthermore, various breeds can be predisposed to certain health conditions which will have a bearing on premiums and conditions of cover (depending on the policy) but it's virtually impossible to gauge predispositions in cross breeds and unknown genetics. 

If it were linked to predispositions to certain breeds being at risk from certain illnesses wouldn't there be a difference between different breeds?  One of the reasons I chose the breed I have is because as a breed they do not seem to be prone to anything serious other than HD which can happen to any dog in most breeds anyway.

>If it were linked to predispositions to certain breeds being at risk from certain illnesses wouldn't there be a difference between different breeds?

Difference in what?    Insurance premiums or illnesses? 

Some policies apply certain conditions to some breeds; some require a certain breed to be under 6 when first insured, some policies may load the premium if your dog is a certain breed.  It all depends on what they see as increased risk and that may differ between insurance companies. 

>If they can exploit they will

I'm afraid so.  My daughter is 21, had a licence about 12 less than her boyfriend and she has 3 points on her licence for speeding yet her premium was less than her boyfriend's.  He was very cross, and I don't blame him.

As for dogs, my vet told me on me first time he met me and my dog that pedigrees have more health problems.  I was surprised to hear it from a vet but just looked at him and said really?  I had only recently explained to my SIL why my dog was healthier than Heinz57.  She didn't believe Pedigrees could be healthier but when I explained that if for eg you had a Lab with HD mated with Boxer with heart probs how would those pups be healthier than a dog that had dam&sire screened and cleared for both just because they are not pedigrees?  In fact pedigrees run the same risk if not health checked. You can't tell by just looking at the dog

It could be that pedigree dogs traditionally cost more than mongrels, so people are more likely to insure them. Therefore more claims will be about pedigrees ... many of the mongrels and crosses will not have been subjected to expensive treatments ...

And, of course, the more claims that are made, the higher everyone's premiums will rise to cover them. These are businesses out to make a profit, after all. The money they pay out has to come from somewhere - and that somewhere is the premiums.

Don't insurance companies charge more for pedigrees because on some policies if your dog goes missing, is stolen or is fatally hurt they give you the price you paid or the current market value of the dog.
Which would be more for a pedigree.
Just a thought :rolleyes:

I'm not sure about this as my only mongrel was never away from the vets and cost me considerably more than my two shar-pei did put together over their lifespans (71/2 and 11 years. I worked out that including two lots of stitches for fights, two spayings, one teeth descaling, one euthanasia and one cremation, they'd cost me much less than £500 each and my poor vet would have gone bankrupt relying on them for revenue. Glad I didn't bother insuring them or I'd have been seriously out of pocket by a couple of thousand quid! 

As one of my main prerequisites for purchasing a puppy would be the health and longevity of it's parents/grandparents, I would go with a pedigree any day as at least I'd know the dogs behind it. As a good proportion of pedigrees are nothing like health tested or even good quality, I don't know how you can come up with this assumption. Sadly, all the pedigree dogs bred as a cash crop with absolutely no regard for health etc... are lumped in with the well bred, carefully planned and rigorously health tested dogs of the same breed. This gives a false picture of how healthy any breed is.

That was what I was thinking, and as it is the most popular breeds that suffer poor breeing the msot and make up a huge proportion of the pedigree population then I suspect that they may well be less ehalthy than a complete Heinz rather than a crossbred from poor quality pedigrees.

If you threw that statement out to the world, I think you will find millions of pedigree dogs living well over 15+ years as well as millions of cross breeds.

What is a fact though is that some breeds of pedigree dogs are known for their possible and probable health problems, others do not have what I call long lives as part of their breed makeup (out of the hat a St. Bernard for instance) If you crossed two of such breeds then mongrel and pedigree would both not have as long a life.

When I was a child crosses were usually made up of Labs, Collies or GSD's, so these mongrels along with their pedigree counterparts would both have longer lives and less health problems.

So I don't think the health or life expectancy of a dog is anything to do with mongrel v pedigree.  But more a case of what breed or breeds a dog is.

I have to say it was always a popular saying throughout my Grandparents lifetime and my parent's lifetime that crossbreeds were hardier dogs than pedigrees.  I can't comment about how true it is though, but it appears to be some people's perception.  It might be different nowadays.

But I've never heard it said that pedigrees were hardier than crossbreeds.  Maybe they are just the same nowadays, difficult to tell.

Maybe pedigrees suffering health issues is spread quicker than cross breeds, you get what you pay for and a person purchasing a pedigree at full whack i'd imagine to be more disgruntled than a cross breed gained through the free ads.

I know thats a terrible statement but it has some truth to it. (Even though i'd value any pet whatever the cost at the same value).

I reckon it's another myth avidly spread by the so-called breeders of so-called "designer" dogs! Or as we know them, "crossbreeds". Only if you are stupid enough to be parting with the sort of money they charge then presumably you are daft enough to believe you've bought a healthier dog.

Having had both pedigree and good old muttley dogs I can't say that either were healthier (or vice versa) than the other.

I've had both pedigree and Heinz.  On balance the heinz have cost more (in one case thousands more) at the vets than the pedigrees and the pedigrees have all lived longer (average of 18 years)  Whether thats from having a better genetic background or a better start in life I wouldn't like to say :rolleyes:

But one thing I am sure of, it must be much easier to build up statistics on the health and longevity of pedigrees than mongrels.  For a start, pedigree dogs often have breeders who wish to collate information on health problems in order to breed them out.  Tests are carried out which are then recorded.  How many people are researching, testing for, and recording the various health problems of mongrels?

it is something i was just always told. also when working in the vets we saw a lot more congenital dissorders and hip dysplasia in pedigrees than we did in crossbreeds. it seems just about every breed has some sort of defect it can suffer from.

i myself have 2 crossbreeds, got them both from private homes.

when i go out walking many people bring up this subject, and more often than not its about how much hardier crossbreeds are. i once thougth it may be down to the fact that some people linebreed pedigree lines.i dont know any breeders and i dont goout looking for designer breeds either.

I think the record for the oldest living dog went to a pedigree Papillon ( Shimna Goldfinch ) who reached the grand age of 28 !.

Yvonne

Ah but what was the quality of the pedigrees you saw.  If their backgrounds were poor, then I would expect them to have a higher likelihood of the ills that the breed is prone to as no-one was trying to avoid it, whereas if the mongrels ancestry was very mixed, then the chances of them inheriting the smae recessive gene would have been reduced.  Not so for straight crosses though as often these woudl be of breeds prone to same problem.

For example crosses of Lab, Golden, GSD etc all breeds with a higher propensity of Hip Dysplasia, I wuld expect the crosses to be at just as high risk, assuming no selection for good hips had been done.

>it seems just about every breed has some sort of defect it can suffer from

And of course crossbreeds and mongrels are at risk of any of the conditions affecting their ancestral breeds. ;) The more breeds involved, the greater the chance of doubling up ...

Just an old wive's tale - been doing the rounds since goodness knows when ;)  Usually followed by mutterings of "too highly breed" :rolleyes:

I've met many a mongrel at our vet surgery suffering from debilitating ailments that such folks would assume to be the exclusive realm of the pedigree such as HD, heart problems, Addison's and EPI.  If any dog is poorly bred and raised it is susceptible to a number of conditions - the breed or breeds involved may help pinpoint them more readily than others but that's about it IMO.

Well bred and reared pedigree dogs from healthy, well bred and reared parents should - barring external forces - live long healthy lives and certainly the vast majority out of literally hundreds I've known do just that.

regards, Teri :)

   

Personally I think it just more well known the specific ailments that certain pedigree dogs suffer from. As most breeds have one or two conditions that are more common in that breed people assume them to be more suseptible to illness.  I have a Pug and most people i meet say 'don't they suffer with breathing problems later in life'. But as a pedigree dog has a documented heritage and many ailments are heriditary well bred dogs in theory should be less likely to suffer with common heriditary problems than cross breeds.

With a 'cross-breed' often the heritage is somewhat cloudy, (unless it was a planned breeding for a so-called 'designer' dog!!) i think it is generally luck what 'qualities' the dogs inherits, depending on history of both parents and dominant genes of course.
But some breeds of dog are a lot more hardy than others and i think if a person has a high maintenance breed and is quite inexperienced then the dog is more likley to have a shorter lifespan.

As for insurance companies i think they charge more for pedigrees as they are more likley to be stolen and have to pay the price the dog cost. Maybe they also they assume if people pay alot for their dog they are more likley to claim more often and take more care of it (untrue of course!)

This is just my opinion though!

I'm not getting at people who have mongrels, but I think some people who do can't afford vets fees etc. and may not take them to the vets when people who can afford it and may well have pedigrees are more likely to take theirs even with lesser problems.  I think that this makes figures less realistic in veterinary surgeries.

I have had Pomeranian's for 27 years.  80% of them have lived to an average age of 16, two unfortunately at the end of 2005 died at 9 and 10 which is young for the breed.

Up to now in my Spanish my eldest died at 12, I have her daughter who is 13 this year and is still fit and well.  Her father died at the age of 15, so hopefully she's got at least another 2 years in her.  Lastar my new import is 8 in May and I would think that he also has a good many years in him yet as he's definitely a fit boy and moves like an overfit 2 year old!

i dont think they are!
though it is a common bandied about myth!!!!
& often a XB wont be "health tested" so some things could go un-noticed.

i dont have XBs my self,but my friend has 2,(that i have contact with)both of which have lameness problems & to me appear old before their time.

not all crossbreeds come from untested parents though.

for example.

my bitch puepa came from 2 tested kc reg parents. who them selfs were from good stock.
her mother was a kc reg english bull terrier and her father was a kc reg lhasa apso.

the bitch was caugth accidently at the end of her season when the owners were looking after the lhasa for a friend.

yes of course not,
we had a similar senerio locally ESS mum Lhasa dad. Accident (but gorgeous!!) 

however even if a dog comes from tested parents,genetic problems can still occur. How many people get the resulting dogs tested for all the health checks for both its "breeds". not many people id think. Unless the XB was competing successfully  in a sport & people wanted a pup from it.
However BVA health checks ARE available for XBs